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Old 07-05-2015, 07:00 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,713 times
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"Or is that hatred only reserved for Muslims?"

Personally speaking, I can say that anyone who has sex with a child is evil. I don't care who it is or when they did it or the custom at the time. Islam is very clear that Muhammed had sex with a nine year old child.

Can YOU say that Muhammed was evil for having sex with a nine year old child?

You can't. No Muslim can. No Muslim will judge Muhammed for raping women, owning and trading and selling women and handing them out like party favors. No Muslim thinks Muhammed was wrong to have people murdered, demand terrorism and hate, insist that all non-Muslims should be done in.

"Further research how the age of puberty is affected by climate and socioeconomic conditions."

I did. It would have been very unusual for a child to have started menses at age 9 in 7th century Arabia. Further, I have read the hadiths where Aisha herself talks about what she was doing when she was given to Muhammed so he could have sex with her. In no way was she a mature women ready to have sex with a 53 year old man!

From the hadith of Bukhari, volume 5, #234

"Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:
"I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me." (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)


Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old."


Try this, if you need more proof: Go into a classroom of 4th graders and start trying to have sex with them. See how many want sex. See how they act.

Another point: Menarche does NOT mean a child is ready for men to have sex with her. It takes a PROCESS of many steps, both mental and physical, to reach that kind of maturity.

Another point: A sex life FOR HUMANS properly starts when there is romantic love. We are not barnyard animals. Romantic love is based on shared values and desire for each other. This means people KNOW each other! Aisha was, in her own words, surprised to be presented to Muhammed for his sexual pleasures. She did not even know him! Imagine giving a child of 9 to a 53 year old man for his sexual use.

Another point: When people first start having sex it should be with someone close to their own age that they have a relationship with. Not some man in their 50's that they do not know.

Another point: What kind of man in his 50's wants sex with a 4th grader?

Another point: Muhammed knew that he was setting the example for all Muslims in the future. He set pedophilia as the example to follow.

Another point: Compare the size of a nine year old child with the size of a grown woman. I have worked with little girls that have been raped by men. Their insides are ripped up. Many cannot urinate properly. Aisha never had children. I wonder why. Certainly Muhammed was raping her often.

In case you don't have any idea how big a 9 year old child is compared to a grown man, this very touching video shows a nine year old child being surprised in a very GOOD way by her father, who did not rape her or give her to someone else for their sexual pleasure:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7npunWUVsw

 
Old 07-05-2015, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Re Child Marriages:
Another point is the fact of pedophilia:
What is ..
Pedophilia or paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children, generally age 11 years or younger.As a medical diagnosis, specific criteria for the disorder extend the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13.
A person who is diagnosed with pedophilia must be at least 16 years of age, but adolescents must be at least five years older than the prepubescent child for the attraction to be diagnosed as pedophilia.
Pedophilia is termed pedophilic disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), and the manual defines it as a paraphilia in which adults or adolescents 16 years of age or older have intense and recurrent sexual urges towards and fantasies about prepubescent children that they have either acted on or which cause them distress or interpersonal difficulty.[
The International Classification of Diseases (ICD-10) defines it as a sexual preference for children of prepubertal or early pubertal age.
Causes:
Although what causes pedophilia is not yet known, beginning in 2002, researchers began reporting a series of findings linking pedophilia with brain structure and function. -wiki

Percentile in Population:
About 4 percent of the population is believed to have pedophilic urges. Psychologists now categorize it as a sexual orientation much like heterosexuality and homosexuality, in the sense that the sexual attraction to children appears to be involuntary and remains stable over time.
Pedophilia: A guide to the disorder

I believe pedophilia which is due to variations in brain circuitry exist in approximate 4% of the population since modern humans emerged many thousands of years ago. Generally there is a range of degrees within this 4% of pedophiliacs.
Those outside the above 4% are not likely to feel anything sexual toward young little innocent girls at all but rather has the natural nurturing and caring inclinations towards them.

The question we need to ask is, were child marriages now or in the past driven by
1. the urges of these 4% of the population who were driven by pedophilia or
2. social/cultural conditions.
I think the primary reason is 1 and 2 is the secondary effects.
Perhaps when the population of a tribe in ancient primitive times were very low [say less than 100] there was a need to marry off early to increase the tribe numbers.
BUT I don't think this factor was relevant anymore in the 7th century in the Middle East when populations were sufficient large.

With the above facts one can easily make an inference of a 'very likely plausibility of ...'.
 
Old 07-05-2015, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I do not deny that any ideology, including religion can be used as a tool to spread a violent social movement. But that does not mean the Religion or other ideology is inherently violent.
I do not agree with your above view.
A religion in general is not established for violence but rather serves the eschatological and soteriological purpose of the individual.
Nevertheless it is a verifiable and proven fact that some religions do not contain in PART [not whole] elements in their holy texts that are very evil that catalyze SOME of its believers to commit violence.

Quote:
Each of us Muslim and non-Muslim must be aware of our biases. There is no need
for the world to divide into "Us vs Them" camps. We all need to treat all
people as individuals and not as our perception of a Group.
The "us vs them" is an inherent drive in humans that has a high degree of utility during the primitive age and modern humans has evolved inhibitors to modulate it for productive positive use. Thus humans within modern humanity has made attempts to ensure the "us vs them" drive to not go out of hand.

HOWEVER, it is a fact the holy texts of many religions promote the "us versus them" that is inherent in humans to the highest degrees.
These holy texts are supposed to be immutable and thus such "us versus them" battle-cry are supposed to be eternal as long as there are humans and different religions and the non-religious.
One of these religions is Islam and it has evil-laden verses to go along with the "us versus them" battle-cry, i.e. 'Muslims versus Kuffar.'


Quote:
I am Me. I am an individual named Woodrow. I do not represent anyone except myself. If I do evil it is because I am evil, Treat me by what I do, not by what you think my religion commands me to do.I do my best to treat all people in that manner and hope they will do the same to me.
I cannot find any proof that Islam encourages or fosters violence, and I do not personally know any violent Muslims.
I can understand why any religious person will get offended when faced with criticisms of their religion. However, I believe it is essential to differentiate the person from the religion or ideology, e.g. not to generalize but to differentiate Cubans from Communism, Germans for Nazism, etc.

The fact [truth] is there are evil laden verses in the Quran, Hadiths which has actually influenced SOME Muslims to commit evils and violence. You may disagree and dissociate personally, but you cannot deny this fact of violence as a PART of Islam.

Btw, I have not come across anyone linking you directly with the violence committed by SOME Muslims in the name of Islam.
 
Old 07-05-2015, 10:20 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,664 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Aisha, a little girl still playing with dolls and swinging on a swing, did not give consent
rape is when a girl is forced to have sex against her will, as Aisha was raped and forced to have sex against her will by a man over 50 years old, who is considered "the perfect human":

"There is no harm if he gets her married while she is less than nine years old, according to the correct opinion. This is based on the messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) marrying Aisha without her consent when she was less than nine years old, as is stated in authentic Hadith"

Shaikh ibn Baz's answer on the Q & A site of the Muslim Students Organization of the University of Houston "Is it allowed for a father to force his daughter to marry a specific man that she does not want to marry?"
Marriage* and consummation of such marriage are two different things. The marriage was divinely ordained by Allah (swt) and happened when Aisha (ra) was 6, the consummation was at 9 when she matured. The Prophet (saw) also had more than 4 wives, and he could so due to his special status as a Prophet. We as non-Prophets can neither have divinely ordained marriages and are limited to 4 wives.
 
Old 07-05-2015, 11:37 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,091,191 times
Reputation: 4527
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Marriage* and consummation of such marriage are two different things. The marriage was divinely ordained by Allah (swt) and happened when Aisha (ra) was 6, the consummation was at 9 when she matured. The Prophet (saw) also had more than 4 wives, and he could so due to his special status as a Prophet. We as non-Prophets can neither have divinely ordained marriages and are limited to 4 wives.
No girl is mature at nine. She may have entered puberty, but that does not make her mature, as as previously being pointed out. For goodness sakes, she was still playing with dolls and on a swing. That is not a woman that is a girl. A young girl.

And for a 50 year old plus man to engage with sex with that young a girl means that man is a pedophile and I don't care if its his name was Muhammad.

Quit excusing the unexcusable.
 
Old 07-06-2015, 12:27 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
The marriage was divinely ordained by Allah (swt) and happened when Aisha (ra) was 6, the consummation was at 9 when she matured.
Where is this stated in the Quran which divinely ordained Muhammad's marriage to Aisha.
 
Old 07-06-2015, 12:48 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,664 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
No girl is mature at nine. She may have entered puberty, but that does not make her mature, as as previously being pointed out. For goodness sakes, she was still playing with dolls and on a swing. That is not a woman that is a girl. A young girl.

And for a 50 year old plus man to engage with sex with that young a girl means that man is a pedophile and I don't care if its his name was Muhammad.

Quit excusing the unexcusable.
Nope. Look in to the French anthropologist and biologist research on maturity of women in dry-arid climates during then 1st through 10th century. Not only did they physically mature faster but they were deemed to be of suitable marriage age much-much sooner.

When the average age of death is somewhere between 30 and 40, society needs couples having children at a much younger age in order to survive.
 
Old 07-06-2015, 12:54 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,664 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Where is this stated in the Quran which divinely ordained Muhammad's marriage to Aisha.
The evidence for this is not in the Quran, it's in hadeeth... Sahih Bukhari.
 
Old 07-06-2015, 01:31 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,651,915 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
it is interesting to note, that even in your list you do not include that it was accepted by her
because it was NOT accepted by her
.
Aisha reported:
I never felt so jealous about any woman as I did for Khadija, although she had died three years before I married the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him.
That was because I heard him mentioning her so often and because his Lord has ordered him to give her glad tidings that she would have a palace in Paradise made of reeds;
and also because the Prophet would slaughter a sheep and distribute its meat among her friends.

Abbas Mahmud al-Akkad says in his book, -
"Ayesha did not nurse such strong feelings of jealousy toward any wife of the Messenger of Allah as she did toward Khadija.
The reason for this jealousy was that Khadija had made a place for herself in the heart of her husband which no one else could take.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) recounted her merits night and day.

The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) was constantly helping the poor and the sick.

On one occasion, Ayesha asked him the reason for this, and he said: "Khadija had told me to treat these people with kindness and love. It was her last wish."

When Ayesha heard this, she flared into a rage, and shouted: "Khadija! Khadija! It seems that for you there is no other woman on the face of the earth except Khadija."


Last edited by truth_teller; 07-06-2015 at 01:55 AM..
 
Old 07-06-2015, 03:58 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,642 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I cannot find any proof that Islam encourages or fosters violence, and I do not personally know any violent Muslims.

We had a Muslim here recently (that I was talking to) that admitted that aggressive violence was part of Islam.

You may not "know them personally" exactly. But I mean, that's one example of a violent Muslim right here.
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