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Old 07-06-2015, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
We had a Muslim here recently (that I was talking to) that admitted that aggressive violence was part of Islam.

You may not "know them personally" exactly. But I mean, that's one example of a violent Muslim right here.
There are about 1.7 billion people that claim to perform the action of Islam and that is probabably the same amount of views we have about the best way to perform Islam.


Is aggression equal to violent? Any person who is dedicated to expressing his/her own thoughts will be considered aggressive by some one who disagrees.

Is aggressive always a bad thing? There are non-Muslims that advocate that non-Muslims are to take an aggressive stand against Islam and are quite aggressive about advocating such--are they evil?
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 07-06-2015 at 08:22 AM.. Reason: Fixed a spelling error

 
Old 07-06-2015, 08:08 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,091,191 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Nope. Look in to the French anthropologist and biologist research on maturity of women in dry-arid climates during then 1st through 10th century. Not only did they physically mature faster but they were deemed to be of suitable marriage age much-much sooner.

When the average age of death is somewhere between 30 and 40, society needs couples having children at a much younger age in order to survive.
I can't find any references that puberty was reached earlier in the 1st through 10th centuries. Also the comment that warm climates puberty is reached earlier than cold climates is not confirmed by the facts.

Any references I could find in fact show that puberty is reached earlier now than it was in the past due to diets and chemicals.

Please provide the scientific references that you are relying on to make your assertions.
 
Old 07-06-2015, 09:42 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,713 times
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"I can't find any references that puberty was reached earlier in the 1st through 10th centuries"

From my research there are a few suggestions that climate could have a SMALL impact, but there are so many other things that have a larger impact, like genetics. But the argument for early puberty is worthless even if it were true.

We know from the hadiths that Aisha was a nine year old child swinging with playmates and playing with dolls (which isn't allowed after the girls has menarche (first period). We know that Aisha was not mentally ready for sex, and that no children want 53 year old men to have sex with them. We know that Muhammed was supposedly setting a PERFECT example of behavior for Muslims. Etc.

What really concerns me is that not one Muslim can say that Muhammed did anything wrong. In fact, Muhammed did every evil in the book....rape, murder, terrorism, pedophilia, theft, owned, traded and sold humans, torture. Muslims accept every evil in the book as OK if Muhammed did it, and he is their perfect example of how to act.

ISLAM was invented by one of the most evil men to ever walk the earth....and over a billion people today refuse to morally judge him. Think about that!
 
Old 07-06-2015, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"I can't find any references that puberty was reached earlier in the 1st through 10th centuries"

From my research there are a few suggestions that climate could have a SMALL impact, but there are so many other things that have a larger impact, like genetics. But the argument for early puberty is worthless even if it were true.

We know from the hadiths that Aisha was a nine year old child swinging with playmates and playing with dolls (which isn't allowed after the girls has menarche (first period). We know that Aisha was not mentally ready for sex, and that no children want 53 year old men to have sex with them. We know that Muhammed was supposedly setting a PERFECT example of behavior for Muslims. Etc.

What really concerns me is that not one Muslim can say that Muhammed did anything wrong. In fact, Muhammed did every evil in the book....rape, murder, terrorism, pedophilia, theft, owned, traded and sold humans, torture. Muslims accept every evil in the book as OK if Muhammed did it, and he is their perfect example of how to act.

ISLAM was invented by one of the most evil men to ever walk the earth....and over a billion people today refuse to morally judge him. Think about that!
It would be hypocritical of us to condemn Muhammad(saws) for any wrong doing, with no proof he did anything wrong.

A person should be considered innocent until proven guilty.
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Old 07-06-2015, 11:22 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,091,191 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It would be hypocritical of us to condemn Muhammad(saws) for any wrong doing, with no proof he did anything wrong.

A person should be considered innocent until proven guilty.
But is it hypocritical to question? Certainly the preponderance of evidence seems to indicate that a pedophiliac relationship existed.
 
Old 07-06-2015, 11:27 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,819 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
I can't find any references that puberty was reached earlier in the 1st through 10th centuries. Also the comment that warm climates puberty is reached earlier than cold climates is not confirmed by the facts.

Any references I could find in fact show that puberty is reached earlier now than it was in the past due to diets and chemicals.

Please provide the scientific references that you are relying on to make your assertions.
Moderator cut: attacking

Precocious Puberty. About Precocious Puberty; early age | Patient

"In Europe earlier puberty has also been reported, particularly in warmer climates. Reports also suggest higher incidence of precocious puberty in girls adopted in Western Europe from underdeveloped countries."

"For girls, puberty is generally considered to be too early if it begins at age seven or eight. African-American and Hispanic girls tend to start puberty slightly earlier than Caucasian girls."
https://www.dukemedicine.org/blog/wh...erty-too-early

Mehdi Hassan cites quite a bit of research on the topic here at an Oxford Debate...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlvpGshhTrI

But why do I try? Allah (swt) has already explained what he has done to the likes of Islamophobes... "And who could be more wicked than he to whom his Sustainer's messages are conveyed and who thereupon turns away from them, forgetting all [the evil] that his hands may have wrought? Behold, over their hearts have We laid veils which prevent them from grasping the truth, and into their ears, deafness; and though thou call them onto the right path, they will never allow themselves to be guided." Quran (18:57)

Last edited by june 7th; 07-07-2015 at 03:41 AM..
 
Old 07-06-2015, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
But is it hypocritical to question? Certainly the preponderance of evidence seems to indicate that a pedophiliac relationship existed.
a statement written down by an old man in which he stated Aish said she was 6 years old when she married Muhammad(saws) Hisham was about in his 70s at the time he stated that and it is acknowledged his memry was poor.

While the Hadith is related in several compilations the isnad in each traces them back to the statement by Hisham.

The Hadith is Sahih because we are certain Hisham really did say Aisha told him she was 6 years old at the time of the marriage and 9 when the marriage was consumated. But there are no ahadith where Aisha ever said this to anyone else.

Hisham ibn Urwa was born in 667 and lived in Medinah for 71 years then moved to Iraq. He wrote that hadith while in Iraq

Aisha died in Medina in 678 (when Hisham was 11 years old)

Hisham would have been 11 years at the most and Aisha would have been in her 60s or more at the time Hisham met her and he wrote that from memory nearly 60 years later.

Something does not seem plausible here. I somehow can not picture a 60 year old women discussing her sex life with an 11 year old boy.



.
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Old 07-06-2015, 12:24 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,091,191 times
Reputation: 4527
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Moderator cut: orphaned
Moderator cut: Orphaned response


Quote:
Precocious Puberty. About Precocious Puberty; early age | Patient

"In Europe earlier puberty has also been reported, particularly in warmer climates. Reports also suggest higher incidence of precocious puberty in girls adopted in Western Europe from underdeveloped countries."

"For girls, puberty is generally considered to be too early if it begins at age seven or eight. African-American and Hispanic girls tend to start puberty slightly earlier than Caucasian girls."
https://www.dukemedicine.org/blog/wh...erty-too-early
Talk about cherry picking.

Want to go back and report the difference in average ages of puberty? And note, puberty is a process, and just because one has started puberty does not mean that one is an adult. The articles you quote are quite specific about that.

Quote:

Mehdi Hassan cites quite a bit of research on the topic here at an Oxford Debate...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlvpGshhTrI

There is absolutely no mention or discussion about earlier puberty in that video clip that you showed. I did see histronic Muslim speaker, but I did not see any comments and I did watch the whole thing. Is this one of those things where Muslims are allowed to lie to the Kaffir to get them to watch or read things?

I'd like you to answer that last question as it is a matter of integrity and I wonder where yours is.

Quote:
But why do I try? Allah (swt) has already explained what he has done to the likes of Islamophobes... "And who could be more wicked than he to whom his Sustainer's messages are conveyed and who thereupon turns away from them, forgetting all [the evil] that his hands may have wrought? Behold, over their hearts have We laid veils which prevent them from grasping the truth, and into their ears, deafness; and though thou call them onto the right path, they will never allow themselves to be guided." Quran (18:57)
Yes, and Christians keep talking about how the work of the devil is done by other people. Christians and Muslims seem to have a lot in common in that regard. They blame a fantasy figure whenever their fantasies are questioned.

Now go answer my question with regards to telling the truth or whether or not a Muslim can lie to the Kaffir.

Last edited by june 7th; 07-07-2015 at 03:45 AM..
 
Old 07-06-2015, 01:11 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,819 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Talk about cherry picking.

Want to go back and report the difference in average ages of puberty? And note, puberty is a process, and just because one has started puberty does not mean that one is an adult. The articles you quote are quite specific about that.
I wouldn't say that is cherry-picking. The *point* is that it is perfectly biologically possible and reasonable for a girl to reach puberty at an early age. Given that the definition of maturity and marriageable/consummation age was puberty at the time of the Prophet (saw) then it's perfectly normal and reasonable for the Prophet (saw) to have had such a marriage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3
There is absolutely no mention or discussion about earlier puberty in that video clip that you showed. I did see histronic Muslim speaker, but I did not see any comments and I did watch the whole thing. Is this one of those things where Muslims are allowed to lie to the Kaffir to get them to watch or read things?

I'd like you to answer that last question as it is a matter of integrity and I wonder where yours is.
What you're speaking of is called Taqiyyah and is allowed when the Muslim is under dire straits... the definition of Taqiyyah is, "The principle of dissimulation of one’s religious beliefs in order to avoid persecution or imminent harm, where no useful purpose would be served by publicly affirming them."

So no I could not lie permissibly to you...but I could make a mistake. I posted the wrong link and am trying to find the one whereby he discusses the status of Aisha (ra) with a debater. My apologies for not reviewing the link before posting but I do hope you got something out of it.
 
Old 07-06-2015, 01:28 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,091,191 times
Reputation: 4527
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
I wouldn't say that is cherry-picking. The *point* is that it is perfectly biologically possible and reasonable for a girl to reach puberty at an early age. Given that the definition of maturity and marriageable/consummation age was puberty at the time of the Prophet (saw) then it's perfectly normal and reasonable for the Prophet (saw) to have had such a marriage.
The point you were trying to make is that it was normal for girls to go into puberty at an early age 1400 years ago then today.

You're being deceptive by trying to twist what your point was.
Quote:
What you're speaking of is called Taqiyyah and is allowed when the Muslim is under dire straits... the definition of Taqiyyah is, "The principle of dissimulation of one’s religious beliefs in order to avoid persecution or imminent harm, where no useful purpose would be served by publicly affirming them."

So no I could not lie permissibly to you...but I could make a mistake. I posted the wrong link and am trying to find the one whereby he discusses the status of Aisha (ra) with a debater. My apologies for not reviewing the link before posting but I do hope you got something out of it.
So in your zeal to prove me wrong, you made a mistake. Perhaps you should not have been so zealous, as it does not serve you well as a representative of your faith.
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