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Old 07-06-2015, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The above verse do not present a good image of Allah.

1. First Allah condone and promote the very primal instinct of 'us versus them," i.e. "Muslims versus Kuffar."
You are influenced as well in using the term "Islamophobe" [irrational fears of Islam] which false and not reflective of reality. It a fact in general, Islam [in part] generate real fears in non-Muslims.

2. The qualities of compassion, mercy, forgiveness, beneficent are the supposed attributes of Allah. Allah is claimed to be omnipotent and merciful but he deliberately prevent the Kuffar from any possibility of being good.
This indicate there is something wrong here. A supposedly good God would never do such a thing, i.e. being so vengeful and vindictive, i.e. deliberately shut out disbelievers and then torture them in hell when he has the power to make sure everything is fine.
Allah's compassion is merely conditional, i.e. only if one is a Muslim. A good person or God should be merciful unconditionally and absolutely.

When one read the Quran and Muhammad relation to it, it is very obvious the Quran was the word a man rather than a supreme omnipotent God.
While it is true that in MSA (Modern Standard Arabic) Kuffar means a Non-Muslim (Direct translation=Non-Believer) but until recent times it was not quite that broad. Keep in mind in the Qur'an there are specific name for Jews, Christians, Sabeeans and they are called "People of the Book" there also are specific words for hypocrites, apostates, pagans etc. In pre-Islamic Arabia a kafir was a farmer--a person who COVERS seeds with dirt. the root carries the implication of cover or hiding. The English word cover is derived from the Heprew word Kophar if one is aware of the relationship between Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic would should be able to see it is the same word as the Arabic Kufar.


Origin of English word COVER
COVER
Edenic Word
KoPHaR
Hebrew Word
כפר
Transliteration
Kahf-Phey-Resh
Pronounciation
cuff-ARE
Conversion
[K-PH-R]
Meaning
To place over or on

COVER | English Word Origin for the word COVER

A kufar is a person who knows the truth, believes in God(swt) but deliberatly denies him or tries to hipe knowledge of. Not a no-believer, but a person who is deliberetly anti-God.

From someone who says it better than me

Quote:
This is the proper understanding of the word kafir, namely someone who actively denies the truth. This necessitates that he or she comprehends what the truth is in order to deny it. If someone does not know the truth, how can he or she be called a kafir ? How can someone deny something which he or she does not know? This is extremely important.
Terminology: In search of the kuffar (“infidels”)
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Old 07-07-2015, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While it is true that in MSA (Modern Standard Arabic) Kuffar means a Non-Muslim (Direct translation=Non-Believer) but until recent times it was not quite that broad. Keep in mind in the Qur'an there are specific name for Jews, Christians, Sabeeans and they are called "People of the Book" there also are specific words for hypocrites, apostates, pagans etc.
In pre-Islamic Arabia a kafir was a farmer--a person who COVERS seeds with dirt. the root carries the implication of cover or hiding. The English word cover is derived from the Heprew word Kophar if one is aware of the relationship between Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic would should be able to see it is the same word as the Arabic Kufar.

Origin

COVER | English Word Origin for the word COVER

A kufar is a person who knows the truth, believes in God(swt) but deliberatly denies him or tries to hipe knowledge of. Not a no-believer, but a person who is deliberetly anti-God.

From someone who says it better than me

Terminology: In search of the kuffar (“infidels”)
The point I am driving is, the Quran [along with the other Abrahamic religions] regardless of whatever the terms invoked, exploit the very primal "us versus them" instinct within a no-holds-barred environment.

The "them" in contrast with the favored Muslims is put down with the worst adjectives on can find. This is common in human nature [very necessary once upon a time] that culminate in enmity, antagonism, detest, almost amounting to extreme hatred to the 'other' the out-group. We had discussed earlier how governments, even US exploit such an instinct to brainwash their soldiers to facilitate the killing of the enemies. This was common during the cold war and between various ethnics even now.

However to include and taint such a primal instinct of the "us versus them" into any religion is a very BIG and serious moral mistake.
This is the reason why Jesus came up with the overriding extreme of "love your enemies" to cover for their past mistakes in the OT and any present "us versus them" elements in the NT.
Unfortunately there is nothing effective and overriding to modulate this very provocative "us versus them" element in the Quran and its associated texts and the ethos of Islam.

Note there are 3400++ or 55% of verses in the Quran that contain the "us versus them" elements in a very antagonistic mood and when taken together stir enmity in most Muslims [more in the vulnerables] toward non-Muslims.

I have analyzed these 3400 verses into more than 50 categories ranging from normal condemnation, the worst kind of put-downs to the worst kind of dehumanization of non-Muslims. When non-Muslims are dehumanized to such an extent, the evil prone or even most Muslims will view non-Muslims not as humans like them and thus will have no hesitation to kill them as inspired and motivated by the sword verses. This is a reality no one can deny. Can you counter this?

The question is why should an omnipotent and omni-good God resort to such low barbaric elements to promote a religion. One can only infer it is not a good God that is playing with and invoking the barbaric "us versus them" but rather it is a work of a person with evil elements.

Note in contrast, the Eastern religions.
They do not rely or emphasize on the barbaric "us versus them" [blow the candles of others to shine one own] to uplift the spirituality of believers.
What they generally do is to highlight to the believers they personally has an inherent existential issue within, then propose solutions for the individual to improve themselves. The individual must concentrate his effort for help himself* and not be busy body in a negative manner with the affairs of others.

See the difference!

It is a fact, the Quran and its holy texts exploit the "us versus them" instinct to favor itself and differentiate itself as the only way to the extent that it inspired SOME of its evil prone believers to commit the most terrible evils imaginable on non-Muslim, the Kuffar.

The term Kuffar may have a benign beginning but because of the 3400 verses of ultra condemnations of non-Muslims within the "us versus them" the term 'kuffar' has now taken a very derogatory and antagonistic meaning in relation to non-Muslims.

Kuffaroophobia [irrational fears of non-Muslims] is perhaps a more relevant and realistic term than Islamophobes [irrational fears of Muslims]. Those who critique Islam are doing it out of real fears and supported by real evidence.
 
Old 07-07-2015, 03:27 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are about 1.7 billion people that claim to perform the action of Islam and that is probabably the same amount of views we have about the best way to perform Islam.
Oh so really Islam can be anything at all, so it can't get the blame for the millions of people killed in its name?



Quote:
Is aggression equal to violent?
With "jihad", yes, it's violent.
 
Old 07-07-2015, 03:42 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,822 times
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A quote from a different thread from a Muslim here:


Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Aggressive Jihad exists and can be halal! However...there is a lot of fiqh (jurisprudence) behind it and it requires a proper Islamic ruler and/or Caliph to lead it. In other words there can be no attack on foreign lands without an order from the commander in chief, very similar to how most militaries and societies work. No we will not apologize for this type of Jihad, and further this type of Jihad hasn't existed for nearly 100 years because we've been without a Caliph for nearly a century thanks in large part to the British and French colonialists.

Of course, modern societies do not really have anything like aggressive jihad in them. It would be seen as completely immoral.

What we are talking about here, is the pure evil of Islamic mass murder and oppression of unbelievers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
If what you were referring to in the OP was halal offensive Jihad done under a Caliph, then no we will not apologize for it. If this was more than a century ago and we had a Caliph that ordained Jihad, I would pray to have been able to join them.

And this poster would happily have taken part in the violence!!
 
Old 07-07-2015, 03:47 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,822 times
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Notice that in the admission above, Islam never properly reformed itself to stop the jihad warfare.

Rather, the Western world had to force change on the Muslim world.
 
Old 07-07-2015, 05:53 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
Notice that in the admission above, Islam never properly reformed itself to stop the jihad warfare.

Rather, the Western world had to force change on the Muslim world.
Jihad means to struggle. The most common struggles ar nonpphysical. Such as the jihad you are engaging in to convince me

Mass murder is not jihad. Jihad is defensive and not aggressive and should never be physical unless a physical attavk has been made and all other means have failed to stop the attack. Even then only minimal force is to be used.
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Old 07-07-2015, 06:16 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
Oh so really Islam can be anything at all, so it can't get the blame for the millions of people killed in its name?

Islam is the act of Submitting to Allaah(swt). Except for the 5 pillars of Islam iy is very individual and between the person and Allaaah(swt)

5 pillars of Islam

1) The Testimony of Faith:
The testimony of faith is saying with conviction, “La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammadur rasoolu Allah.” This saying means “There is no true god (deity) but God (Allah),1 and Muhammad is the Messenger (Prophet) of God.”

2) Prayer:
Muslims perform five prayers a day.

3) Giving Zakat (Support of the Needy):.

4) Fasting the Month of Ramadan:

5) The Pilgrimage to Makkah:


Violence is only be when called for under a God(swt) ordained caliph. That will not occur again until the return of Jesus(a.s.) and He and the righteous defeat the anti-Christ.and his followers

Basically what Christians believe will tbe "Final Battle"

Except Christians believe the the righteous are the Christians and we believe the righteous are the Muslims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
With "jihad", yes, it's violent.
The only time Jihad can be physically violent is when it is called for by Allaah(swt) under the direction of a Caliph. That will not happen again until Jesus(as) returns.
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Old 07-07-2015, 08:45 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 771,005 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
A quote from a different thread from a Muslim here:





Of course, modern societies do not really have anything like aggressive jihad in them. It would be seen as completely immoral.

What we are talking about here, is the pure evil of Islamic mass murder and oppression of unbelievers.






And this poster would happily have taken part in the violence!!
Modern societies have nothing like offensive Jihad? I really-really hope you aren't serious. Here's a wonderful list of wars in the name of "spreading freedom & democracy!!!!"...also known as spreading imperialism through outright invasion & takeover and/or attempting to force the hand of certain countries to put Governments/dictators in place that are friendly to "modern societies" imperialist interests.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/0...n_7514410.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...965%E2%80%9366)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...sion_of_Panama

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Civil_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operat...hold_Democracy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw...Czechoslovakia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War
 
Old 07-07-2015, 10:07 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,881 times
Reputation: 435
"The only time Jihad can be physically violent is when it is called for by Allaah(swt) under the direction of a Caliph."

That's not what I read in the Quran.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran)

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." This verse promotes violence as be virtuous and contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home). Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward " This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence and puts an end to
the myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle.


Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Not does not mean 'on'. This explicitly puts to rest the claim that all violence was to occur only on the 'last day'.

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."

Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense.

Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam.

Quran (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"

Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..."

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."

Quran (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" The verse explicitly refers to "battle array" meaning that it is speaking of physical conflict. This is followed by (61:9): "He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist."

Quran (61:10-12) - "O You who believe! Shall I guide you to a commerce that will save you from a painful torment. That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad ), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know! (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwelling in Gardens of 'Adn - Eternity ['Adn (Edn) Paradise], that is indeed the great success."

Quran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

There is mention of slaughtering Jews on the last day:

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
 
Old 07-07-2015, 10:20 AM
 
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Here are some verses from the hadith that do not mention only fighting on the last day:

Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)."

Bukhari (52:65) - The Prophet said, 'He who fights that Allah's Word, Islam, should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." No tolerance here - spread Islam by force.

Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'

Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)

Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."

Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

Bukhari (52:73) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords'."

Bukhari (11:626) - [Muhammad said:] "I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes."

Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"

Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihad died the death of a hypocrite.'"

Muslim (19:4294) - "When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him... He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war... When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them."

Bukhari 1:35 "The person who participates in (Holy Battles) in Allah’s cause and nothing compels him do so except belief in Allah and His Apostle, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty ( if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise ( if he is killed)."

Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam.

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"

Tabari 17:187 "'By God, our religion (din) from which we have departed is better and more correct than that which these people follow. Their religion does not stop them from shedding blood, terrifying the roads, and seizing properties.' And they returned to their former religion."

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 484: - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)
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