U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 07-10-2015, 04:33 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,590 times
Reputation: 64

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
You make a faulty assumption based off of a lack of knowledge of what a proper Jihad is and what it entails.
Non-Muslims were given 3 options-- either convert to Islam, pay tribute, or the Muslims would fight them.

And as this is aggressive war, it's clearly "mass murder" to be out killing for your religion.


Quote:
The Jizya tax they imposed was significantly less than what was imposed by the Byzantines.
Even if this is correct, it does nothing to defend Islam of being responsible for mass murder...


Quote:
Surely if this offensive Jihad was "mass murder and oppression" then such people wouldn't have came under rule of Muslims so easily.
Millions of people were killed and enslaved in jihad. That's "mass murder" plain and simple.


Quote:
Further the Muslim Caliphs allowed your people (the Jews)
I'm not actually Jewish.


Quote:
The vision you have of Jihad has been shaped by people like OBL, ISIS, Sam Shammoun, Pamela Geller and so on and it's unfortunate. Normative Islamic thought simply doesn't support these views and Islam would not have spread as it did without a high degree of tolerance for non-Muslims that came under their domain. That would simply be illogical.

Quoting:

Myth #8 - Islam is a Tolerant Religion



In her excellent work on this subject, The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians Under Islam, Bat Ye'or reproduces dozens of primary reference documents that detail the dhimmitude phenomenon firsthand. From these documents, it can easily be seen that the mythological toleration extended by the Muslims during the period of their ascendancy, except perhaps for rare isolated occasions, is almost complete fiction invented by modern apologists for Islam. Let us now look at a few of these firsthand accounts of Islamic "toleration".


Ibn an-Naqqash, a 14th century Egyptian religious teacher, recounted some of the opinions of early Muslim theologians,
"CHURCHES - It is related, according to the tradition, that the Prophet made this declaration: 'No churches are to be built in Muslim lands, and those that will have fallen into ruin shall not be repaired.' Another hadit is also quoted in his name: 'No churches under Islam.'
Umar b. al-Khattab (may Allah bless him!) commanded that every church that did not exist before the rise of Islam was to be demolished and he forbade the building of new ones. He also commanded that no cross was to be visible outside a church, otherwise it could be broken over the head of him who carried it.
Urwat b. Naj gave orders to destroy all the churches of San'a (Yemen). This is the law of the ulama of Islam.
Umar b. Abd al-Aziz went even further than this and gave orders to leave neither churches nor chapels standing anywhere, be they ancient or recent. It is customary, says Hasan al-Basri, to destroy the old and the new churches in any country.
Umar b. Abd al-Aziz also issued decrees prohibiting Christians to raise their voices while chanting in their churches, for these are the most distasteful hymns to the Most High. Moreover, he prohibited them from repairing those parts of their places of worship which fell into ruin. Concerning the latter point there are two opinions. If they resurface them on the outside, says al-Istakhari, then they must be prevented from doing so, but if they merely restore the inside, the portion that is on their side, then this can be tolerated. However, Allah is all-knowing."
...

A particularly sad example of the treatment of the Jews in Morocco during the 19th century is found in Halevy's archives, detailing in particular the Muslim contempt for Jewish womanhood,



"Needless to say it is primarily the working classes and the petty shopkeepers who are the most exposed to the arbitrary measures of the authorities. The Jewish craftsman who brings his work to the Moroccan official is paid with blows of a staff if he is not satisfied with half the price originally agreed upon. The heaviest tasks are continuously imposed upon the working population, women and children not excepted. While roaming through the bazaar in the Arab quarter, I saw long lines of young Jewish girls, bareheaded and barefooted, working in the manufacture of military uniforms, earning but 10 or 15 centimes per day. But the bodily sufferings are nothing compared to the moral vexations to which these sensitive and modest creatures are constantly exposed. In a country where no decent woman should be seen in the street without a veil, these Jewish women and girls are obliged to work unveiled in the middle of the bazaar and thereby exhibit themselves to the impudent stares of the Arab crowds.

"A Muslim himself admitted to me that this humiliating exposure has no other purpose than to force these Jewish women to convert as the only means of escaping from such intolerable treatment. Indeed, must not their spirit be exceptionally noble in order to withstand such a life of misery and untold suffering, when conversion can offer them the most precious advantages, freedom, wealth, and honors?
"The petty shopkeepers in the Mellah are not treated any better, for retail transactions are often the cause of arguments between Arabs and Jews, from which the former are certain in advance to triumph. A Muslim who buys some commodity from a Jewish shop comes back some hours later accusing the vendor of having cheated him on the weight or quantity. Since, on the one hand, the testimony of a Jew is worthless and, on the other hand, it is impossible to find Arab witnesses in the Mellah, the Muslim's word is taken and the ghetto overseer (muhtasib) sees no harm in punishing the presumed offender with a round of thrashes from his staff, which leaves him unconscious on the ground or maimed for the rest of his life. With my own eyes I saw a great number of these victims, mostly butchers, woefully dragging themselves along the ground, unable to walk upright, their backs horribly hacked to pieces and looking like one gaping wound. Black decayed flesh hung at their ankles and their feet, crooked and swollen by the violent blows, ended in a hideous blue blister which hid the atrocious remains of toenails that had been smashed by the staff. It was hideous and heartbreaking to see, and yet these wounds were already ten or fifteen days old. What had the state of these wretched people been on the day when this treatment had been inflicted upon them?


"Sometimes the cruelest punishments are meted out on these poor Jews without the slightest pretext, if only to remind them that they have masters who can do what they want with them. The main idea of the Moroccan authorities is that the Jew must not undertake nor initiate a commercial transaction without their mediation, the aim of which obviously is to receive a handsome commission. Consequently, their anger knows no bounds when such an opportunity escapes their greediness."

 
Old 07-10-2015, 04:40 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,590 times
Reputation: 64
This isn't just something from the past of course. A modern example of this kind of thinking:


British Islamist Abu Waleed: Muslims Should Humiliate Christians in Order to Make Them Convert to Islam

British Islamist Abu Waleed: Muslims Should Humiliate Christians in Order to Make Them Convert to Islam



Abu Waleed: How many contradictions do the Charter of the United Nations and Islam have?

[…]

We take what Abdullah Ibn Abbas said, because he was a Companion, from the greatest commentators on the Koran. He said to take the jizya poll tax from the People of the Book. This completely contradicts, my dear brothers, the articles of the United Nations [Charter].

Article 2, paragraph 1, says that the organization is based on the principle of sovereignty and equality to all of its members. Equality to all of its members – is there such a thing in Islam? Is there equality of faith?

If we look at one hadith of the Prophet on the authority of Abu Huraira, Sahih Muslim… No Sunni Muslim could really argue against Sahih Muslim or Sahih Bukhari… “The Prophet said: Don’t greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you, and when you meet any of them on the road, force them to go on the narrower side of it.” Imam Malik said the same thing as well.

In fact, Omar Ibn Al-Khattab – about whom the Prophet Muhammad said: “If there were to be another prophet after me, it would be Omar Ibn Al-Khattab”… In his own charter – not the Charter of the United Nations – in his charter with the people of the Levant, the Christians of the Levant, [it is stated] that infidels and Muslims were not allowed to wear the same clothes as one another.

If a Muslim comes out on the day of ‘Eid and sees an infidel with nice clothes, the infidel has to take his clothes off and give them to the Muslim. When an infidel walks down the street, he has to wear a red belt around his neck, he has to have his forehead shaved, and he has to wear two shoes that are different from one another. He is not allowed to walk on the pavement. He has to walk in the middle of the road, and he has to ride on a mule.

This is only for adults, not for the children. You can see how Islam would make the child become a Muslim. The child growing up in a state of heresy would turn to Islam. Why? Because the child would be walking along with his dad, and would say: “Dad?” “Yes.” “Why have you got your forehead shaved?” “I don’t know, these Muslims make me do it.” “Why can’t you ride the animal like the Muslims, who ride like this? Why are you riding with both legs dangling on the side of the donkey?” “Why is it that every time a Muslim comes and asks you for your clothes, you give them?” “Why is it that every time he tells you to get down from the horse, you have to take it?”

No only that, but [Omar Ibn Al-Khattab] said that the infidels can have their churches, but they are not allowed to ring the bell. If a Muslim is walking by… let’s say, for example that a Muslim has been on Edgware Road. He has had some nice shisha, some nice steak… No hubble-bubble – we don’t deal with anything like that. He’s walking along, rubbing his belly, and he’s like: “Oh man, I don’t want to upset my wife tonight.” What can he do? He can go to the church, knock on the door, and say: “John, let me in.” “Okay, no problem.” John has to put up Abd Al-Ghafour for the night. Abd Al-Ghafour, with his big belly, having his nice kebab – John has to open up the church, and [allow him] to go and sleep there, nice and comfortable, and [he will] say: “John, thank you,” and carry on going, early in the morning.

What wife is going to live with John under that type of circumstances? [She would say]: “What kind of dishonor is it for me to live with John, and Abd Al-Ghafour comes every Friday night and sleeps in our be as well?” Of course… Because Sunna is to look after the guest, right? I can’t make you sleep on my floor… and you are a Muslim by the way…. So what about when Abd Al-Ghafour goes to John’s house? [He will say]: “John, sleep on the floor, and I’ll sleep in the bed.”

What’s going to happen? Tracy is going to be on the floor, thinking: “My husband has got his forehead shaved, and look at this one… He’s like Al-Khattab…” Which one is more attractive – we’re not gay, but I’m just saying… – a man with his forehead shaved, one belt around his neck, and two different colored shoes, or Emir Al-Khattab? Emir Al-Khattab, who we’re talking about here now, with that nice Chechen hat, a big beard – a bit to the side… He’s got the badges there: “There is no god but Allah.” He’s got a big gun. He’s got a big camouflage jacket on, nice boots, and gloves as well. Even if he’s got a couple of fingers missing, he still looks attractive.

What is Tracy going to do? John is in for a problem. He just let the Emir in for a kebab, and he lost his own wife as well. So everyone is going to become Muslims. That, my dear brothers, is the Islamic state….
 
Old 07-10-2015, 04:44 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,590 times
Reputation: 64
Even if the above Muslim is just a bit of a fringe nutcase, it's still the case that similar humiliation and oppression of non-Muslims has been a part of traditional Islamic jihad.
 
Old 07-10-2015, 04:55 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,590 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
and many that agree with me.

Imagine you have a religion, where the founders were completely peaceful, its scripture without doubt teaches nothing but peace, and all its followers behaved peacefully for hundreds and hundreds of years. And then a new sect comes about that teaches violence...

In such a case, we would not hold the religion blameworthy right?


However, imagine a religion, like Islam, where there is an arguable and plausible case that "authentic Islam" involves aggressive violence.

Then you would have a problem right? It's not really good enough to say, "oh but that's just the interpretation of some people and I disagree with them".
 
Old 07-10-2015, 08:31 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
Reputation: 435
"Non-Muslims were given 3 options-- either convert to Islam, pay tribute, or the Muslims would fight them. "

Just a note: It's not multiple choice...they had to repent, convert and pay the tax. Or be slaughtered.

Quran 9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Great posts! Thank you.
 
Old 07-10-2015, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
Imagine you have a religion, where the founders were completely peaceful, its scripture without doubt teaches nothing but peace, and all its followers behaved peacefully for hundreds and hundreds of years. And then a new sect comes about that teaches violence...

In such a case, we would not hold the religion blameworthy right?


However, imagine a religion, like Islam, where there is an arguable and plausible case that "authentic Islam" involves aggressive violence.

Then you would have a problem right? It's not really good enough to say, "oh but that's just the interpretation of some people and I disagree with them".
Many anti Islam sites report that 20% of the world's Muslims support violence.

What is the rate of violence among humans on a whole? Studies seem to indicate the majority of humans are violent. The violent crime rate in the USA is staggering At least 25% of all american women have been sexually assaulted. there are over 14,000 murders per year. So far this year there have been 14 school shootings.

Some scary thoughts on violence in the USA

Quote:
Conclusion

While recent statistics show a steady declining trend, violence still remains a major public health problem. Prevention needs to occur at an early age, preferably before age 10. Behavior patterns become established and intervention becomes the goal beyond this age. Violence is a serious social and economic problem. Prevention programs must identify high risk groups such as adolescents and focus on teaching positive attitudes, conflict resolution, and social skills training. Success will require a comprehensive approach that addresses this issue on many different levels.
Violence in the United States
Quote:
In a government survey, 26 of every 1,000 people reported being victims of rape, robbery or assault
Violent crime rises for second consecutive year

Quote:
In the USA there are an average of 293,000 reported sexual assault cases each year. But it is believed about 68% are not reported.
https://www.rainn.org/statistics

While I can not find any statistics on what percentage of americans are invoved in violence, there are a very large number when you just look at the statistics of violent crimes. Lt does appear there is a very high rate of preponderance towards violence all though Most Americans do not support violence. In my opinion The rate of violence in america is greater than in the Muslim Nations. If anything there is less violence among Muslims than there is among non-Muslims.

World wide the murder rates in the 49 Muslim nations is lower than the non-Muslim Nations.

VIOLENCE DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY

In spite of the reports that Islam supports violence, the figures indicate muslims are less violent than non-Muslims.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
 
Old 07-10-2015, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
Imagine you have a religion, where the founders were completely peaceful, its scripture without doubt teaches nothing but peace, and all its followers behaved peacefully for hundreds and hundreds of years. And then a new sect comes about that teaches violence...

In such a case, we would not hold the religion blameworthy right?


However, imagine a religion, like Islam, where there is an arguable and plausible case that "authentic Islam" involves aggressive violence.

Then you would have a problem right? It's not really good enough to say, "oh but that's just the interpretation of some people and I disagree with them".
It is also arguable that the Qur'an, Ahadith, Sunnah and Sira do not suppoert violence.

It really does take reading out of context to come to the conclusion they support violence.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
 
Old 07-10-2015, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Non-Muslims were given 3 options-- either convert to Islam, pay tribute, or the Muslims would fight them. "

Just a note: It's not multiple choice...they had to repent, convert and pay the tax. Or be slaughtered.

Quran 9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Great posts! Thank you.
All Muslims are obligated to give Zakah (Charity) We give to the Charity of our choosing which could be a needy neighbor. Charity Zakah is the 3rd Pillar of Islam

As for the Dhimmi tax That non-Muslims had to pay. It was only the males of Military age and in good health that were to pay it. It was based upontheir accumulated wealth. This was in Lieu of Military service. They could avoid the tax by serving in the military. Except for a few nations the Dhimmi tax was less than the Zakah paid by Muslims.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
 
Old 07-10-2015, 09:47 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
Reputation: 435
"All Muslims are obligated to give Zakah (Charity) We give to the Charity of our choosing which could be a
needy neighbor. "

The point here is that in verse 9:5 in the Quran, polytheists had to repent and establish prayer, and give zakah (all three), or when the sacred months have passed, then Muslims should kill them "wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush."

This is a call to mass slaughter unless the person (on the spot!!) repents, joins Islam and pays the tax. It is INITIATION of force (violence) in it's worst form.

You cannot force a mind. If I demand you stop being a Muslim RIGHT NOW and become a Scientologist or else I will kill you.....can you stop your belief in Allah and become a Scientologist? Of course not. You may well lie to save your life, but you will not suddenly change your beliefs. The way to attempt to change a mind is through rational discourse. A gun, or sword, is not an argument.

I could argue morally against forced redistribution of wealth, but that is not within the scope of the issue here.
 
Old 07-10-2015, 09:55 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
Reputation: 435
"It really does take reading out of context to come to the conclusion they support violence."

It really does not. I have posted verses after verse that incites violence. When I read for further context, it makes matters even worse. Continuum has given statistics over and over after his painstaking analysis of the Quran. I have posted many hadith that show Muhammed setting the example for terrorism and violence. We have discussed abrogation. There is a mountain of evidence that adds up to proof.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top