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Old 07-10-2015, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kell490 View Post
I read on CNN today that the suspects in the shooting of the French cartoonist were radicalized Islamic's. This seems to be non stop endless killing and retaliation how can things ever change?


First on CNN: France tells U.S. Paris suspect trained with al Qaeda in Yemen - CNN.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
Perhaps a more relevant question would be why are radicals so violent?

And looking back through history makes it evident that Islam is hardly the only religion that's had its violent radical practitioners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
Of course the OP has phrased the question with a blanket over the top assumption - but with the seeming propensity of a sizable minority of those perpetrating violence in the name of Islam, it's not greatly surprising that we've got here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kell490 View Post
Lots of issues with Christians in history no doubt but that was over 100+ years ago this issue is today not 100 years ago. What can be done to stop the violence. Sending drones to kill Islamic radical leaders isn't going to solve anything they just replace him with another.
Muslims are no more violent then any other people. Religion or whatever, becones an excuse to justify violence, not the cause. those same people would still be violent even if they were not Muslim. they would simply change their targets.

The "Developed Nations" have an outlet for the violent aspects of their people, it is called Military duty and National Defense

Islam is not violent, some Muslims are violent..
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Old 07-10-2015, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
My point being that Islamic violence is no more prevelant than any other violence. People all seem to have the same level of violence. Islamic violence is an oxynoron. violent tendencies have no qualifying adjectives.

Id Islamic violence were a cuase, the elimination of Islam should show a significant decline in violence. But regeions that have no Islamic influence, still have the same levels of violence.

this is not a detraction, it is an attempt to show the OP is a fallacy, based upon bias and not facts.
" Why is Islam so violent?"
Surely you should understand English better than me with regards to that "WHY" in the OP?

Why = for what? for what reason, cause, or purpose?
Why | Define Why at Dictionary.com

Instead of find the reason, cause, purpose, which the OP specifically expected, you deflected to a comparison.

I have provided this reasonable statistics


If you want to prove 'Islam is not SO violent' show why Islam has absolutely no link to the above and all other types of evil committed around the world.

Within 23 days of Ramadan we have the following statistics of violence committed by SOME Muslims.

No of incidents - 227
Suicide bombing -45
Dead - 2227
Wounded - 2711

The above numbers by themselves justify the OP " Why is Islam so violent?" as a hypothesis for a start and your obligation in this thread to prove the hypothesis wrong.



Quote:
the direct answer to the OP " Why is Islam so violent?" is "Because it is composed of
humans and about 20% of all Humans have a tendency towards violence."
This sort of approach to problem solving and finding root causes is very weak.

It is like, 'Why is gastritis so common?'
Your answer: because it effect humans and about 20% of all Humans have a tendency to eat at odd times. QED.
It is only not long ago scientists found out the real significant cause i.e. by a bacteria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori.

As you are familiar with psychology, I am quite sure one need to dig deep to find significant and critical root causes of their patients.
I have done precisely that re the OP and discover Islam [in part] is a catalyst that trigger SOME within the 20% to commit the terrible evils and violence we observe at present.


Quote:
I believe you will find many people condone violence against those of a
different, race. political ideology or religion. Often Justifying it as
retaliation. Point being the devastation of the Mideastern nations and
Afghanistan as retaliation/retribution for the actions of a few. Islam does not
command nor condone aggression.
That can happen and must be dealt with. But that is no excuse for us to trace to the proximate root causes. Note to avoid generalization, I always qualify my conclusions with 'part' 'some' 'not all.'



Quote:
I am not deflecting or distracting, I am showing that violence does not decline when an area has no Islamic influence. If Islam was violent, one should find a significant decline in regions free from us violent people. That does not seem to be the case.

The Question asked in the op can only be answered by showing Muslims are not more violent than other people. My methodology is to show there is no significant decline of violence by people that oppose Islam.
This is very bad logic and bad rationality.

That is the same as saying, violence does not decline when an area has no Mexican-drug-cartel influence. Therefore Mexican-drug-cartel is not a cause of violence.
One can construct such similar ridiculous arguments to deflect away other types of violence and evils.

If an OP is raised say 'Why epidemic X is so dangerous' when there is so many fatalities, the most critical task is to find the proximate root causes. It is incompetent of any medical scientists to divert greater attention to compare it to other diseases. It is also inefficient to blame the life style, cultural, economics and hygiene factors [albeit need attention] as the proximate causes.

The point is the OP asked,
Why is Islam so violent? which by default meant looking for root causes not comparisons [if any are very secondary].
 
Old 07-10-2015, 11:33 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
" Why is Islam so violent?"
Surely you should understand English better than me with regards to that "WHY" in the OP?

Why = for what? for what reason, cause, or purpose?
Why | Define Why at Dictionary.com

Instead of find the reason, cause, purpose, which the OP specifically expected, you deflected to a comparison.

I have provided this reasonable statistics


If you want to prove 'Islam is not SO violent' show why Islam has absolutely no link to the above and all other types of evil committed around the world.

Within 23 days of Ramadan we have the following statistics of violence committed by SOME Muslims.

No of incidents - 227
Suicide bombing -45
Dead - 2227
Wounded - 2711

The above numbers by themselves justify the OP " Why is Islam so violent?" as a hypothesis for a start and your obligation in this thread to prove the hypothesis wrong.



This sort of approach to problem solving and finding root causes is very weak.

It is like, 'Why is gastritis so common?'
Your answer: because it effect humans and about 20% of all Humans have a tendency to eat at odd times. QED.
It is only not long ago scientists found out the real significant cause i.e. by a bacteria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori.

As you are familiar with psychology, I am quite sure one need to dig deep to find significant and critical root causes of their patients.
I have done precisely that re the OP and discover Islam [in part] is a catalyst that trigger SOME within the 20% to commit the terrible evils and violence we observe at present.


That can happen and must be dealt with. But that is no excuse for us to trace to the proximate root causes. Note to avoid generalization, I always qualify my conclusions with 'part' 'some' 'not all.'



This is very bad logic and bad rationality.

That is the same as saying, violence does not decline when an area has no Mexican-drug-cartel influence. Therefore Mexican-drug-cartel is not a cause of violence.
One can construct such similar ridiculous arguments to deflect away other types of violence and evils.

If an OP is raised say 'Why epidemic X is so dangerous' when there is so many fatalities, the most critical task is to find the proximate root causes. It is incompetent of any medical scientists to divert greater attention to compare it to other diseases. It is also inefficient to blame the life style, cultural, economics and hygiene factors [albeit need attention] as the proximate causes.

The point is the OP asked,
Why is Islam so violent? which by default meant looking for root causes not comparisons [if any are very secondary].
I simply have not found any Islamic reason some Muslims are violent. There is no centralized teaching of Islam. While some Imams do preach and teach those are things an Imam is not supposed to do. No Muslim is to state. his interpretation of Islam or the Qur'an, is the correct interpretation. Learning about Islam is a personal responsibility. the closest thing we have to "Official Interpretations" are the majority consensus of the Ulemah.

As for the "Violent" passages in the Qur'an very few of us see them as commands or even suggestions, they are morality lessons showing the possible consequences for doing evil. Very many Muslims have never read the Qur'an, illiteracy is rampant in the Islamic nations.

Nearly 40% of Muslim world



The Islamic Nations with 80% and aboveLiteracy rates seem to have the lowest rates of violence
Bahrain: 89.1%
Brunei: 91.8%
Qatar: 89%
Kuwait: 93.3%
Malaysia: 97.2%
Maldives: 97.3%
Indonesia: 86.8%
Bosnia and Herzegovina: 96.7%

Those are also the Nations with the largest number of people that read the Qur'an. If the Qur'an is the cause of violence, those should be the most violent nations.

Here is a listing of literacy raes in the Islamic Nations. Notice the lowest leteracy rates correspond to the nations with the most violence, yet these are the nations in which the people are not likely to read the Qur'an

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...9171650AAwYSTK
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Old 07-10-2015, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I simply have not found any Islamic reason some Muslims are violent.
I can fully understand why you as a Muslims will NEVER find any Islamic reason why Muslims are violent. Perhaps you will never will and I don't see you will change. Nevertheless I will just express my views and opinions.
This is the same instinct where mothers and fathers just cannot see any thing negative in their spoilt child.
Suggest you dig deep into your psyche to transcend the primal brain entrapped in this cognitive blindness.

Quote:
There is no centralized teaching of Islam. While some Imams do preach and teach those are things an Imam is not supposed to do. No Muslim is to state. his interpretation of Islam or the Qur'an, is the correct interpretation. Learning about Islam is a personal responsibility. the closest thing we have to "Official Interpretations" are the majority consensus of the Ulemah.
No centralized teachings but the fact remains there are 55% of evil laden verses of various degrees [1 -100] in the Quran that are antagonistic toward the Kuffar.
No central authority but are you aware of 'birds of feathers get together' how locusts instinctively [no leader] get together to cause havoc, herd-instincts within humans, and the likes. This is how those 'SOME' Muslims herd together based on natural instincts to commit terrible evils when catalyzed by those 55% of evil laden verses.


Quote:
As for the "Violent" passages in the Qur'an very few of us see them as commands
or even suggestions, they are morality lessons showing the possible consequences
for doing evil. Very many Muslims have never read the Qur'an, illiteracy is
rampant in the Islamic nations.
I am sure you understand how subliminality works in the minds of the vulnerables. They don't have to be explicit commands [actually there are] but the point is believers has the natural tendency to be zealously compliance and get as close as possible to Allah be assured of a place in paradise. This is a very common everywhere when the subservient and sychophants go the extra-mile to get attention and gain favor. For example in criminal gangs 'killing' of others gain extra credit and recognition.

The critical element is not that the majority Muslims must read the holy texts. Rather it is the religious teachers, experts the very zealous who spend their whole life reading the Quran, Hadiths, Sira, and naturally got brainwashed, then they proceed to brainwash their followers every Friday in their sermons and wherever on any other opportunity they can get.

Last edited by Continuum; 07-11-2015 at 12:02 AM..
 
Old 07-11-2015, 12:41 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I can fully understand why you as a Muslims will NEVER find any Islamic reason why Muslims are violent. Perhaps you will never will and I don't see you will change. Nevertheless I will just express my views and opinions.
This is the same instinct where mothers and fathers just cannot see any thing negative in their spoilt child.
Suggest you dig deep into your psyche to transcend the primal brain entrapped in this cognitive blindness.

No centralized teachings but the fact remains there are 55% of evil laden verses of various degrees [1 -100] in the Quran that are antagonistic toward the Kuffar.
No central authority but are you aware of 'birds of feathers get together' how locusts instinctively [no leader] get together to cause havoc, herd-instincts within humans, and the likes. This is how those 'SOME' Muslims herd together based on natural instincts to commit terrible evils when catalyzed by those 55% of evil laden verses.


I am sure you understand how subliminality works in the minds of the vulnerables. They don't have to be explicit commands [actually there are] but the point is believers has the natural tendency to be zealously compliance and get as close as possible to Allah be assured of a place in paradise. This is a very common everywhere when the subservient and sychophants go the extra-mile to get attention and gain favor. For example in criminal gangs 'killing' of others gain extra credit and recognition.

The critical element is not that the majority Muslims must read the holy texts. Rather it is the religious teachers, experts the very zealous who spend their whole life reading the Quran, Hadiths, Sira, and naturally got brainwashed, then they proceed to brainwash their followers every Friday in their sermons and wherever on any other opportunity they can get.
Have you ever experienced the typical Friday Jummah Sermon? first few will even attend it. Muslims are notorious about praying outside a Mosque rather then in it.

the Imam is not to start his Kutbuh no earlier than 30 minutes before the Dhuhr prayer and complete it before the Athan for Dhuhr is called. It is supposed to deal with local issues and offer a Qur'an based Solution. 9 out of 10 times it will be an appeal to help a local family. who need not be Muslim. the 10th time the Imam will explain the roof of the Mosque needs repairs and he can not afford to hav them done.--- Imams often are not paid and often are responsible for the upkeep of the Mosque. we are tightwads and do not tithe. there is no collection basket passed at prayer time, although any Muslim can place a basket at the entrance and appeal for financial help.

Like I sid world wide a very large percentage of Muslims do not enter a Mosque they pray at Home, work, school or out in any public place such as the road or sidewalks.

A typical scene in Islamic nations. Most of us refuse to listen to an Imam that thinks he is a preacher

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Old 07-11-2015, 01:28 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,504,263 times
Reputation: 3870
I think it's telling that no one has started a thread along the lines of 'Why is Hinduism/ Buddhism/ Quakerism (here I jest) so violent? A thread on the same re Christianity wouldn't be out of place (the desert trilogy are nothing but trouble) - but largely and comparatively out of date.
 
Old 07-11-2015, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Have you ever experienced the typical Friday Jummah Sermon? first few will even attend it. Muslims are notorious about praying outside a Mosque rather then in it.

the Imam is not to start his Kutbuh no earlier than 30 minutes before the Dhuhr prayer and complete it before the Athan for Dhuhr is called. It is supposed to deal with local issues and offer a Qur'an based Solution. 9 out of 10 times it will be an appeal to help a local family. who need not be Muslim. the 10th time the Imam will explain the roof of the Mosque needs repairs and he can not afford to hav them done.--- Imams often are not paid and often are responsible for the upkeep of the Mosque. we are tightwads and do not tithe. there is no collection basket passed at prayer time, although any Muslim can place a basket at the entrance and appeal for financial help.

Like I sid world wide a very large percentage of Muslims do not enter a Mosque they pray at Home, work, school or out in any public place such as the road or sidewalks.

A typical scene in Islamic nations. Most of us refuse to listen to an Imam that thinks he is a preacher
Since I am not a Muslim it is obvious I am not expected to attend a Friday congregation in a Mosque. However I have heard of sermons being blasted out of loud speakers from mosques.

Again your views in this case are from a heavily blinkered perspective that has filtered out most of reality and is only attentive to only what is positive to you.

Note here is what "Undercover Mosque" discovered from 6 mosques in London, the preaching of extremists views.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercover_Mosque
  • Dr. Ijaz Mian on the subject of non-Muslim laws: "You cannot accept the rule of the kaffirÖ[w]e have to rule ourselves and we have to rule the others."
  • [Abu Usamah saying of apostates: "If the imam wants to crucify him he should crucify him. The person is put up on the wood and he's left there to bleed to death for three days."
  • [Abu Usamah speaking on the deficiency of women's minds: "Allah has created the woman, even if she gets a PhD, deficient. Her intellect is incomplete, deficient. She may be suffering from hormones that will make her emotional. It takes two witnesses of a woman to equal the one witness of the man.
  • "Praises the killer of a British soldier serving in Afghanistan, stating "The hero of Islam is the one who separated his head from his shoulders."
  • Abdullah el-Faisal: "You have to bomb the Indian businesses, and as for the Jews you kill them physically."
  • Advocates violent Jihad against the non-Muslims and predicting that an army of Muslims will arise against the non-Muslims in England.
  • Dr Bilal Philips on marriage with girls before puberty: "The prophet Muhammad practically outlined the rules regarding marriage prior to puberty. With his practice, he clarified what is permissible, and that is why we shouldn't have any issues about an older man marrying a younger woman, which is looked down upon by this society today, but we know that Prophet Mohammed practised it, it wasnít abuse or exploitation, it was marriage."
  • Condemns Muslim integration into British society.
  • Calls for the overthrow of the British government and democracy. "[T]hey will fight in the cause of Allah. I encourage all of you to be from amongst them, to begin to cultivate ourselves for the time that is fast approaching where the tables are going to turn and the Muslims are going to be in the position of being uppermost in strength, and when that happens, people wonít get killed Ė unjustly."
  • Dr. Mian: "You are in a situation in which you have to live like a state within a state, until you take over."
  • Al Jibali: "By the age of ten, it becomes an obligation on us to force her to wear hijab, and if she doesnít wear hijab, we hit her."
  • Dr. Mian praised the Saudi religious police practice of imprisoning people who do not pray: "They send the police, and they say, well, if you donít come for prayer, close your shop, we will arrest you But if you donít, then we have to bring the punishment on you, you will be killed, and nobody will pray on you."
  • Abu Usamah saying that homosexuals should be killed by throwing them off a cliff, stating "throw [the homosexual] off the mountain."
The same pattern of preaching of extremist views [in degrees] occur in many [not all] mosques all over the world.

Note the notorious Abu Hamzah and his Friday prayers & preaching in the streets of London.



There are many who give sermons and prayers that are not fiery nor extreme, but note our concern is always the critical few that is causing the most significant and terrible evils. [Pareto]

At Home? What is most critical at present is the internet which is creating a greater negative impact of spreading those 'divine' evil laden elements.
 
Old 07-12-2015, 01:25 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,504,263 times
Reputation: 3870
Weird cult ... BTW where are the women?
 
Old 07-12-2015, 05:43 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
Weird cult ... BTW where are the women?
Men and women do salat separately.




Salat (The 5 Obligatory prayers) Salat is more like a religious service than the English concept of prayer.


Our Du'as are like the English word prayer, which we we say whenever and wherever we desire.

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Old 07-12-2015, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Since I am not a Muslim it is obvious I am not expected to attend a Friday congregation in a Mosque. However I have heard of sermons being blasted out of loud speakers from mosques.

Again your views in this case are from a heavily blinkered perspective that has filtered out most of reality and is only attentive to only what is positive to you.

Note here is what "Undercover Mosque" discovered from 6 mosques in London, the preaching of extremists views.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercover_Mosque
  • Dr. Ijaz Mian on the subject of non-Muslim laws: "You cannot accept the rule of the kaffirÖ[w]e have to rule ourselves and we have to rule the others."
  • [Abu Usamah saying of apostates: "If the imam wants to crucify him he should crucify him. The person is put up on the wood and he's left there to bleed to death for three days."
  • [Abu Usamah speaking on the deficiency of women's minds: "Allah has created the woman, even if she gets a PhD, deficient. Her intellect is incomplete, deficient. She may be suffering from hormones that will make her emotional. It takes two witnesses of a woman to equal the one witness of the man.
  • "Praises the killer of a British soldier serving in Afghanistan, stating "The hero of Islam is the one who separated his head from his shoulders."
  • Abdullah el-Faisal: "You have to bomb the Indian businesses, and as for the Jews you kill them physically."
  • Advocates violent Jihad against the non-Muslims and predicting that an army of Muslims will arise against the non-Muslims in England.
  • Dr Bilal Philips on marriage with girls before puberty: "The prophet Muhammad practically outlined the rules regarding marriage prior to puberty. With his practice, he clarified what is permissible, and that is why we shouldn't have any issues about an older man marrying a younger woman, which is looked down upon by this society today, but we know that Prophet Mohammed practised it, it wasnít abuse or exploitation, it was marriage."
  • Condemns Muslim integration into British society.
  • Calls for the overthrow of the British government and democracy. "[T]hey will fight in the cause of Allah. I encourage all of you to be from amongst them, to begin to cultivate ourselves for the time that is fast approaching where the tables are going to turn and the Muslims are going to be in the position of being uppermost in strength, and when that happens, people wonít get killed Ė unjustly."
  • Dr. Mian: "You are in a situation in which you have to live like a state within a state, until you take over."
  • Al Jibali: "By the age of ten, it becomes an obligation on us to force her to wear hijab, and if she doesnít wear hijab, we hit her."
  • Dr. Mian praised the Saudi religious police practice of imprisoning people who do not pray: "They send the police, and they say, well, if you donít come for prayer, close your shop, we will arrest you But if you donít, then we have to bring the punishment on you, you will be killed, and nobody will pray on you."
  • Abu Usamah saying that homosexuals should be killed by throwing them off a cliff, stating "throw [the homosexual] off the mountain."
The same pattern of preaching of extremist views [in degrees] occur in many [not all] mosques all over the world.

Note the notorious Abu Hamzah and his Friday prayers & preaching in the streets of London.



There are many who give sermons and prayers that are not fiery nor extreme, but note our concern is always the critical few that is causing the most significant and terrible evils. [Pareto]

At Home? What is most critical at present is the internet which is creating a greater negative impact of spreading those 'divine' evil laden elements.
There are few Imams that even give any type of sermon. I have no problems with the radicals being identified and made known to the public.

Imams are not ordained clergy nor appointed by any Islamic Hierarchy. Mosques are often financed by the Imam and his family. While there is no way to stop any one from opening a Mosque and being the Imam. We Muslims can step in if they are violating any laws. All Muslims are obligated to abide by the laws ot the nation we live in.

We are obligated to not pray behind a person who is not knowledgeable in Islam.

If an Imam's Kutbahs are not predominatly about the needs of the local community. We should question that imam's knowledge of Islam and consider praying elsewhere.

-
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