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Old 07-13-2015, 11:37 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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No violence in this Islamic religious ceremony, is there?

Ashura 2014: Shi'ite Muslims Flagellate Themselves With Swords, Chains and Knives [GRAPHIC PHOTOS]


 
Old 07-13-2015, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
That is a cermony perfomed only by a small number of Shi'a in one region. Does not appear in the Qur'an. Ahadith Sunnah etc. Is not one of the 5 Pillars and is not recognized or practiced except by a small group. They say they do it in penance for their ancestors killing Muhammad(saws)'s grandson.

Does not represent Islam any more than the Good Friday flagellation and crucifixions that occur in the Philippines represent Christianity.
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Old 07-13-2015, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post

Nothing But Pure Ignorance of Self-Flagellation on Ashoorah (Ashura)


Do not cast yourselves, with your own hands, into destruction [Qur'an 2-195]


There is such things as differences of opinions, fundamental theological differences, different fiqh, etc. between Muslim sects. But nothing excuses for pure ignorance and despicable behavior of self-flagellation by the Shias that engage in it on Ashoora (Ashura). Now let me preface this by saying that my grand-father lived and died as a Shia, may Allah forgive him, and my father tells me that his father (my grand-father) never engaged in such activities, so I am assuming that not all Shias agree with this.

What is even more shameful is when children are inducted into this practice, to the point of making cuts on babies' heads! How can these little creatures even understand the purpose of this act, let alone be forced to engage in it by their ignorant parents?

On another note, can we blame the Islamophobes for using these images to further propagandize about Islam?In fact, out of the 4 photos, I found 1 on an Israeli “facts” website and another on “religious freaks” website. The final 2 were from Yahoo News.

So, let me state it clearly to any non-Muslim readers that such practices of self-flagellation are prohibited in our religion (see first line of this post, a verse from the Qur'an). kids-ashoora.jpgMuslims are prohibited from even wailing over their dead. And certainly Islam forbids harming oneself or worse, harming one's children. People who do such activities are driven by a false sense of love over Islam's great martyr, imam Hussein (RD). If imam Hussein (RD) were alive today, I am certain he would distance himself from such “followers”. There is nothing in our Islamic history from the times of the golden caliphate that any of the Sahaba or the proceeding first generations engaged in such self-destruction.

» Nothing But Pure Ignorance of Self-Flagellation on Ashoorah (Ashura)
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Old 07-13-2015, 12:30 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,087,992 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That is a cermony perfomed only by a small number of Shi'a in one region. Does not appear in the Qur'an. Ahadith Sunnah etc. Is not one of the 5 Pillars and is not recognized or practiced except by a small group. They say they do it in penance for their ancestors killing Muhammad(saws)'s grandson.

Does not represent Islam any more than the Good Friday flagellation and crucifixions that occur in the Philippines represent Christianity.
No one denies that what happens in the Philippines is not Christian. Nor does anyone deny that the people doing it are Christians. In addition I have not seen anyone suggest there is an issue with it from a Christian point of view.

Do I think both practices are silly? Of course I do. And as can be seen with the picture from the news article, it has little regard for even children.

What kind of religion does that?

Edit:

We must have posted it almost the same time, as I see you denounce the practice just like I do.
 
Old 07-13-2015, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
No one denies that what happens in the Philippines is not Christian. Nor does anyone deny that the people doing it are Christians. In addition I have not seen anyone suggest there is an issue with it from a Christian point of view.

Do I think both practices are silly? Of course I do. And as can be seen with the picture from the news article, it has little regard for even children.

What kind of religion does that?

Edit:

We must have posted it almost the same time, as I see you denounce the practice just like I do.
Virtually all Muslims denounce it. It occurs primarily among people with ancestral ties to Yangon, Myanmar

sort of like if because of my Christian ancesters I were to decorate my house with Christmas lights and people jumping to the conclusion it is a Muslim ritual. Yes there are muslims that put up Christmas lights and Christmas trees.

If you go to Dubai would you say they are celebrating a Muslim ritual?

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Old 07-13-2015, 05:15 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,221 times
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What we do see in the Quran is The OK to rape women.

"The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.

Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)


This is really evil. It gives a blanket permission to have sex with (in reality, rape) captive women, even if they are married. And in front of their husbands! To add more context, the next verse goes on to say:

4:25 And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls.

So, the definition of 'right hand possesses' includes captive women and slave women.

What 'Allah' does not say is that rape is evil and no woman should ever be raped. Nor does 'Allah' say that slavery is evil and no women should be kept as slaves.

Instead, 'Allah' OK's the rape of captive women (even in front of their captive husbands) and OK's the marriage of BELIEVING slave girls, which means that Muslim women can also be kept as slaves.

The consequence of this is that by some calculations, the number of victims of the 14 centuries of Islamic slave trade could exceed 180 million.

Another verse from the Quran that OKs slavery:

33:50 O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee;....
 
Old 07-13-2015, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
What we do see in the Quran is The OK to rape women.

"The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.

Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)


This is really evil. It gives a blanket permission to have sex with (in reality, rape) captive women, even if they are married. And in front of their husbands! To add more context, the next verse goes on to say:

4:25 And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls.

So, the definition of 'right hand possesses' includes captive women and slave women.

What 'Allah' does not say is that rape is evil and no woman should ever be raped. Nor does 'Allah' say that slavery is evil and no women should be kept as slaves.

Instead, 'Allah' OK's the rape of captive women (even in front of their captive husbands) and OK's the marriage of BELIEVING slave girls, which means that Muslim women can also be kept as slaves.

The consequence of this is that by some calculations, the number of victims of the 14 centuries of Islamic slave trade could exceed 180 million.

Another verse from the Quran that OKs slavery:

33:50 O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee;....
For the umpteenth time. It is not permissible to have sexual relations with a slave woman, unless you are merried to her.

The madhabs are quite clear they do not see rape of a slave woman allowed under sharia (Madhabs) a man can be sentenced to death for having sexual relations with any one he is not married to. That is a Hadud crime ( a crime that requires an earthly punishment) in all 4 Madhabs---Which are the source for Islamic Jurisprudence.
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Old 07-13-2015, 06:05 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,087,992 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
What we do see in the Quran is The OK to rape women.

"The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.

Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)


This is really evil. It gives a blanket permission to have sex with (in reality, rape) captive women, even if they are married. And in front of their husbands! To add more context, the next verse goes on to say:

4:25 And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls.

So, the definition of 'right hand possesses' includes captive women and slave women.

What 'Allah' does not say is that rape is evil and no woman should ever be raped. Nor does 'Allah' say that slavery is evil and no women should be kept as slaves.

Instead, 'Allah' OK's the rape of captive women (even in front of their captive husbands) and OK's the marriage of BELIEVING slave girls, which means that Muslim women can also be kept as slaves.

The consequence of this is that by some calculations, the number of victims of the 14 centuries of Islamic slave trade could exceed 180 million.

Another verse from the Quran that OKs slavery:

33:50 O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee;....

Pretty much the same as in the bible, which is pretty little self. It allows for slavery, it allows for rape, that allows for abuse of victims.
 
Old 07-13-2015, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Here is the problem-- You are not looking at all killings, just what gets labelled "Terror Killlings" in 2012 14,827 people were murdered last year in the United States, We have over 14,000 murders every year in 24,526 in 1993 SOURCE That is the USA alone--Not the total of murders in all non-Muslim Nations.


Those people are just as dead as the ones killed in a "Terror Attack" they are just as violent. And that is in the USA alone.

The fact is if a Muslim does it it is considered a Terror attack, if any ones else does it it is murder which is much more civilized and less violent--- the media would like you to believe.

The Non Muslim countries are much more violent then the Muslim nations but they do not get called terrorism. Which is what the hate groups point at-not the total violent deaths.

Yes the terrorism rate is highest in Muslim nations, simply because all violence in them is labelled "Terrorism" but if one looks at violent death from all causes not just terrorism the Islamic nations are among the lowest rates.
As usual you are going off topic again. Note TheProcess's point.
Originally Posted by TheProcess
When it comes to religious terrorism, Islam seems to be more violent than other religions at least at this stage in history:

The topic is not about "terror" in general.

The topic related to religion refer to terrors where religious believers commit terror by invoking verses from their holy texts, in the name of their religion, god and prophet.
 
Old 07-13-2015, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
For the umpteenth time. It is not permissible to have sexual relations with a slave woman, unless you are merried to her.

The madhabs are quite clear they do not see rape of a slave woman allowed under sharia (Madhabs) a man can be sentenced to death for having sexual relations with any one he is not married to. That is a Hadud crime ( a crime that requires an earthly punishment) in all 4 Madhabs---Which are the source for Islamic Jurisprudence.
Yours is only the minority view.

The problem is the Islamic holy texts include elements regarding sex with slave women without any clear cut views. There are also vague mixed views.

The actual evidences of raping, torture, and selling of slaves by Muslims who justify their acts by invoking element from their holy texts reflect what is intended by the holy texts.
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