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Old 07-24-2015, 08:13 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I repost my conditions again;

Note in Part-1 I mentioned significant %.
The critical point here is the general ethos and what that carry the heaviest weigh it the 'love' element that override the past short-coming of the older OT.

Re Part-2 I mentioned all over the World, which I ask later, i.e.
Are the majority Christians in USA, Europe, Philippines using guns and bombs to kill anyone who is not a Christian on daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, on Christmas, Easter Day?
This is what SOME Muslims are doing when inspired by significant % of verses in the Quran plus expositions by scholars and schools.

What you are doing is side-stepping the main and critical elements of my arguments and bring in frivolous points.

I do not deny there are believers from Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism who commit violence but they are not inspired by the essence and ethos of their religion.
The Buddhists in Myanmar also asserted they want to kill Muslims but that is not inspired by the Buddhist sutras.

What do you call significant? The hate site I quoted from found something violent in every book of the bible--100% of the books condoned or commanded violence.

As for Christian terrorism. I only named a few of the Christian terrorist organizations, but they are found in almost every Christian Nation.

Why Christian terrorist groups are not getting international media attentionr
05-20-2015, 05:14 AM
You may not believe this but there are actually more Christian terrorist groups than Muslim ones but the media prefer focusing on the Muslim ones. I am a Christian but I am not biased. There is a rotten egg on every basket. Most Christian terrorist groups are active in Latin America while others are in Europe.
https://www.disaster.com/forums/foru...dia-attentionr

Christian Terrorism in China
Eastern Lightning, a.k.a. the Church of the Almighty God

Founded in Henan Province, China in 1990, Eastern Lightning (also known as the Church of the Almighty God or the Church of the Gospel’s Kingdom) is a Christianist cult with an end-time/apocalypse focus: Eastern Lightning believes that the world is coming to an end, and in the meantime, its duty is to slay as many demons as possible. While most Christianists have an extremely patriarchal viewpoint (much like their Islamist counterparts) and consider women inferior to men, Eastern Lightning believe that Jesus Christ will return to Earth in the form of a Chinese woman. But they are quite capable of violence against women: in May 2014, for example, members of the cult beat a 37-year-old woman named Wu Shuoyan to death in a McDonalds in Zhaoyuan, China when she refused to give them her phone number. Eastern Lightning members Zhang Lidong and his daughter, Zhang Fan, were convicted of murder for the crime and executed in February. In a 2014 interview in prison, Lidong expressed no remorse when he said of Shuoyan, “I beat her with all my might and stamped on her too. She was a demon. We had to destroy her.”

Eastern Lightning’s other acts of violence have ranged from the killing of a grammar school student in 2010 (in retaliation, police believe, for one of the child’s relatives wanting to leave the cult) to cult member Min Yongjun using a knife to attack an elderly woman and a group of schoolchildren in Chenpeng in 2012. Christian groups are not exempt from Eastern Lightning’s fanaticism: in 2002, cult members kidnapped 34 members of a Christian group called the China Gospel Fellowship and held them captive for two months in the hope of forcing them to join their cult. Although mainly active in the communist People’s Republic of China, Eastern Lighting has been trying to expand its membership in Hong Kong.
Army of God? 6 Modern-Day Christian Terrorist Groups You Never Hear About | Alternet


South Korea:- A chronology of Christian attacks against Buddhism
Published September 10, 2008 Buddhists , Christian , Missionaries/Evangelists , South Korea , Terrorism 26 Comments

As in India the religion of love starts small, inflitrates major sectors of the society. Now Christianity is the dominant religion in South Korea and Buddhism is a fading religion. This is how Christians subvert from within. And this how they commit genocide of pre Christian culture and religions. And that is exactly their intention in India as well.

http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/2.html

Buddhism under Siege 1982-1996:
A Chronology of Fifteen Years of Incidents Against Buddhism in South Korea

The following is an incomplete listing of defamations, acts of vandalism and arson attacks against Buddhist temples and facilities in South Korea which have occurred since 1982 and which have earned the attention of the news media and the dismay of the Buddhist population in the country.

Buddhism under Siege 1982-1996 : Fifteen Years of Incidents Against Buddhism in South Korea including at least twenty temples or Buddhist shrines seriously damaged or totally destroyed by arson since 1986.
https://christianwatchindia.wordpres...inst-buddhism/

What about the Christian Crucifixions in the Philipines on Good Friday? Do you see them as nonviolent?

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Old 07-24-2015, 02:04 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,503,305 times
Reputation: 3870
National Secular Society - Website of Islamic charity hosted articles advocating death for gay people and apostates
 
Old 07-24-2015, 02:08 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,503,305 times
Reputation: 3870
Re oppressive Christianity, I've long thought it paradoxical that many of the escapees from North Korea are 'saved' by Korean Christians on their arrival in South Korea - exchanging one cult for another.
On some of the comparative posts here comparing the violence/oppression of one religion against the other - how about no religion at all?
 
Old 07-24-2015, 03:51 PM
 
97 posts, read 69,686 times
Reputation: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Timothy McVeigh and Brevick did not quote from the NT nor emphasize their beliefs as Christians.

On the other hand, all [if not most] of Muslims terrorists and evil-doers made reference to the Quran to justify their crime, e.g.

Simply not true Continuum........... since the OP was referring to the Paris attacks let's start there shall we:

Coulibaly (the Kosha supermaket gunman) said

“I think of those who had to put up with Bashar al-Assad in Syria. He tortured people. Nobody did anything for years. Then bombers, coaltion of 50,000 counries and all that. Why are they doing that? There was norhtern Mali and Syria. They have to stop attacking Islamic State and stop forcing us to unveil women and stop putting my brothers in prison for nothing.”
Coulibaly he also says that Jews were a legitimate target in revenge for the Muslim deaths in Palestine.

Mohammad Sidique Khan London 7/7 bomber:

"I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe. Our drive and motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer. Our religion is Islam, obedience to the one true god and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger. Your democratically-elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters. Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation."

Shehzad Tanweer 7/7 Bomber:

"What have you witnessed now is only the beginning of a string of attacks that will continue and become stronger until you pull your forces out of Afghanistan and Iraq. And until you stop your financial and military support to America and Israel."

Jihadi John:

‘I’m back, Obama, and I’m back because of your arrogant foreign policy towards the Islamic State.”

The Bali Bombing was in retaliation for support of the United States' war on terror and Australia's role in the liberation of East Timor.

"You will be killed just as you kill, and will be bombed just as you bomb" (Recorded voice message attributed to Bin Laden)

Note the complete lack of reference to the Quran for justification Mr. Continuum???






 
Old 07-24-2015, 04:43 PM
 
192 posts, read 151,317 times
Reputation: 246
Faith is the purposeful suspension of critical thinking, what could go wrong.
 
Old 07-24-2015, 10:40 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klambo View Post
Simply not true Continuum........... since the OP was referring to the Paris attacks let's start there shall we:

Coulibaly (the Kosha supermaket gunman) said

“I think of those who had to put up with Bashar al-Assad in Syria. He tortured people. Nobody did anything for years. Then bombers, coaltion of 50,000 counries and all that. Why are they doing that? There was norhtern Mali and Syria. They have to stop attacking Islamic State and stop forcing us to unveil women and stop putting my brothers in prison for nothing.”
Coulibaly he also says that Jews were a legitimate target in revenge for the Muslim deaths in Palestine.

Mohammad Sidique Khan London 7/7 bomber:

"I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe. Our drive and motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer. Our religion is Islam, obedience to the one true god and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger. Your democratically-elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters. Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation."

Shehzad Tanweer 7/7 Bomber:

"What have you witnessed now is only the beginning of a string of attacks that will continue and become stronger until you pull your forces out of Afghanistan and Iraq. And until you stop your financial and military support to America and Israel."

Jihadi John:

‘I’m back, Obama, and I’m back because of your arrogant foreign policy towards the Islamic State.”

The Bali Bombing was in retaliation for support of the United States' war on terror and Australia's role in the liberation of East Timor.

"You will be killed just as you kill, and will be bombed just as you bomb" (Recorded voice message attributed to Bin Laden)

Note the complete lack of reference to the Quran for justification Mr. Continuum???
Your counter is very flimsy.

I think it is common sense these jihadists will not repeat the verses the Quran at every moment when they are attacking and committing evils upon non-Muslims.
If you have read sufficiently of the various reports and autobiography of the Jihadists, plus reading the Quran objective and extensively, you will surely agree with my factual point.

Look! I posted the following on Bin Laden but you DID NOT read it.

Why is Islam so violent?
Read Bin Laden letter to America where he quoted from the Quran.
Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'
Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America' | World news | The Guardian

Generally most opponent do not read what is linked, but ignorance of facts is no defense and thus your credibility is suspect.

Here is what Bin Laden quoted from the Quran, which is the first two para of his letter [there are 23 Quranic quotations in all];
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,

"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]
The Bali Bomber
I have read Imam Samudra Biography [in English] somewhere and it is full of quotation from the Quran to justify why he did his jihad.
Aku Melawan Teroris by Imam Samudra


Shehzad Tanweer
Here is a partial extract from
Full Transcript for Tanweer Video
"Narrator: And you can find the effects of this contemplation of the verses of Allah's Wise Book and anxiety for this religion in the messages of the martyr Shehzad to his Muslim brothers."

So Shehzad Tanweer's reading of the Quran lead him to do what he did. Isn't Islam supposed to be a religion of peace?

"Shehzad Tanweer: Oh Muslims of Britain, you, day in and day out, on your TV sets watch and hear about the oppression of the Muslims, from the East to the West. But yet you turn a blind eye and carry on with your lives as if you never heard anything, or as if it does not concern you."
Full Transcript for Tanweer Video [Archive] - Ummah.com - Muslim Forum

The last para is traceable to verses in the Quran and elsewhere he mentioned the Quran.

Mohammad Sidique Khan London 7/7 bomber:
His point re Islam as a basis of his violent act is an obvious reference to the Quran, what else. The points he made are traceable to verses in the Quran.

Coulibaly point is also traceable to verses in the Quran. It is just a matter to do more research to confirm he had relied and made reference to the Quranic verses.


Michael Adebolajo -Woolwich Killer
'That is all I can say. I am a mujahid, I'm a soldier, I'm doing what Allah commands me to do.
Link

Michael Adebolajo who now calls himself Mujaahid Abu Hamza quotes Qur’an verses at the bottom of the second page of his letter as his motivation to his actions. He put them in five groups:
1. 4:69-76, 4:84, 9:41
2. 9:24, 9:39, 9:46, 9:87, 9:93
3. 9:67, 3:173, 47:20, 9:86, 9:31, 9:51-5, 8:5-6, 2:170
4. 3:160, 9:119, 9:123
5. 9:37, 2:216, 3:142
https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com...lwich-witness/

Critical Point:
The critical point is there is no way terrorists who are jihadist would dare to go on their own without any backing and reference back to the relevant Quranic verses. If they do it from their own discretion, as Muslims they will go to hell. These jihadist Muslims has to very precise in their interpretations of the verses to ensure to get to heaven with eternal life and their bonus of eternal virgins.

I'll repeat again what is real,
All [if not most] of Muslims terrorists and evil-doers made reference* to the Quran to justify their crime.

* don't be petty to insist they must quote the Quranic verses at every moment. My point is their acts are ultimately traceable to their reliance on Quranic verses as jihadists.
 
Old 07-25-2015, 03:50 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your counter is very flimsy.

I think it is common sense these jihadists will not repeat the verses the Quran at every moment when they are attacking and committing evils upon non-Muslims.
If you have read sufficiently of the various reports and autobiography of the Jihadists, plus reading the Quran objective and extensively, you will surely agree with my factual point.

Look! I posted the following on Bin Laden but you DID NOT read it.

Why is Islam so violent?
Read Bin Laden letter to America where he quoted from the Quran.
Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'
Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America' | World news | The Guardian

Generally most opponent do not read what is linked, but ignorance of facts is no defense and thus your credibility is suspect.

Here is what Bin Laden quoted from the Quran, which is the first two para of his letter [there are 23 Quranic quotations in all];
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,

"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]
The Bali Bomber
I have read Imam Samudra Biography [in English] somewhere and it is full of quotation from the Quran to justify why he did his jihad.
Aku Melawan Teroris by Imam Samudra


Shehzad Tanweer
Here is a partial extract from
Full Transcript for Tanweer Video
"Narrator: And you can find the effects of this contemplation of the verses of Allah's Wise Book and anxiety for this religion in the messages of the martyr Shehzad to his Muslim brothers."

So Shehzad Tanweer's reading of the Quran lead him to do what he did. Isn't Islam supposed to be a religion of peace?

"Shehzad Tanweer: Oh Muslims of Britain, you, day in and day out, on your TV sets watch and hear about the oppression of the Muslims, from the East to the West. But yet you turn a blind eye and carry on with your lives as if you never heard anything, or as if it does not concern you."
Full Transcript for Tanweer Video [Archive] - Ummah.com - Muslim Forum

The last para is traceable to verses in the Quran and elsewhere he mentioned the Quran.

Mohammad Sidique Khan London 7/7 bomber:
His point re Islam as a basis of his violent act is an obvious reference to the Quran, what else. The points he made are traceable to verses in the Quran.

Coulibaly point is also traceable to verses in the Quran. It is just a matter to do more research to confirm he had relied and made reference to the Quranic verses.


Michael Adebolajo -Woolwich Killer
'That is all I can say. I am a mujahid, I'm a soldier, I'm doing what Allah commands me to do.
Link

Michael Adebolajo who now calls himself Mujaahid Abu Hamza quotes Qur’an verses at the bottom of the second page of his letter as his motivation to his actions. He put them in five groups:
1. 4:69-76, 4:84, 9:41
2. 9:24, 9:39, 9:46, 9:87, 9:93
3. 9:67, 3:173, 47:20, 9:86, 9:31, 9:51-5, 8:5-6, 2:170
4. 3:160, 9:119, 9:123
5. 9:37, 2:216, 3:142
https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com...lwich-witness/

Critical Point:
The critical point is there is no way terrorists who are jihadist would dare to go on their own without any backing and reference back to the relevant Quranic verses. If they do it from their own discretion, as Muslims they will go to hell. These jihadist Muslims has to very precise in their interpretations of the verses to ensure to get to heaven with eternal life and their bonus of eternal virgins.

I'll repeat again what is real,
All [if not most] of Muslims terrorists and evil-doers made reference* to the Quran to justify their crime.

* don't be petty to insist they must quote the Quranic verses at every moment. My point is their acts are ultimately traceable to their reliance on Quranic verses as jihadists.
We can easily come to a which came first argument.

Did the Terrorists become terrorists because of what they interpret the Qur'an to say or do they interpret the Qur'an as they do because they are terrorists.

I do not find as much as one ayyat in the Qur'an that condones or command aggression. Yet I am aware that those, who seek justification for terrorism, find thousands of such.

I contend that a person with an evil heart, will read out of context and read partial statements to suit their agenda.

The worse offenders are those who present them self as "Leaders" and recruit the uneducated to do their evil deeds. the evil misguiding the naive and the adventure seekers.
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Old 07-25-2015, 04:32 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,681 times
Reputation: 64
Quoting Sam Harris:

"...Or was it just politics, with religion as a pretext? The New York Times reported that the Tsarnaev brothers were “motivated to strike against the United States partly because of its military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.” Many people seized on this as proof that U.S. foreign policy was to blame. And yet the only plausible way that Chechens coming of age in America could want to murder innocent people in protest over the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would be for them to accept the Islamic doctrine of jihad. Islam is under attack and it must be defended; infidels have invaded Muslim lands—these grievances are not political. They are religious.

The same obscurantism arose in response to the Woolwich murder—when two jihadists butchered a man on a London sidewalk while shouting “Allahu akbar!” Their actions were repeatedly described as “political”—and the role of Islam in their thinking was reflexively discounted. Why political? Because one of the murderers spoke of British troops in Afghanistan and Iraq invading “our lands” and abusing “our women.” Few seemed to wonder how a Londoner of Nigerian descent could feel possessive about Afghan and Iraqi lands and women. There is only one path through the wilderness of bad ideas that reaches such “political” concerns: Islam."

No Ordinary Violence : Sam Harris
 
Old 07-25-2015, 05:58 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
Quoting Sam Harris:

"...Or was it just politics, with religion as a pretext? The New York Times reported that the Tsarnaev brothers were “motivated to strike against the United States partly because of its military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.” Many people seized on this as proof that U.S. foreign policy was to blame. And yet the only plausible way that Chechens coming of age in America could want to murder innocent people in protest over the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would be for them to accept the Islamic doctrine of jihad. Islam is under attack and it must be defended; infidels have invaded Muslim lands—these grievances are not political. They are religious.

The same obscurantism arose in response to the Woolwich murder—when two jihadists butchered a man on a London sidewalk while shouting “Allahu akbar!” Their actions were repeatedly described as “political”—and the role of Islam in their thinking was reflexively discounted. Why political? Because one of the murderers spoke of British troops in Afghanistan and Iraq invading “our lands” and abusing “our women.” Few seemed to wonder how a Londoner of Nigerian descent could feel possessive about Afghan and Iraqi lands and women. There is only one path through the wilderness of bad ideas that reaches such “political” concerns: Islam."

No Ordinary Violence : Sam Harris
A counter arguement: If Islam is the cause, there should be a reduction of violence as Islamic influence decreases.


There is virtually no Islamic influence in the USA. Yet, the USA is one of the most violent nations on earth

In US, 204 Mass Shootings in 204 Days

I will agree that terrorists often use Islam as an excuse and that most people guilty of religious terrorism are Muslims. But the vast majority of terrorism and violence in the world is not religious motivated.
Very few acts of Terrorism have a religious basis, most acts of terrorism are not Religious motivated.

Non-Muslims Carried Out More than 90% of All Terrorist Attacks in America
Non-Muslims Carried Out More than 90% of All Terrorist Attacks in America | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

Are All Terrorists Muslims? It’s Not Even Close
Are All Terrorists Muslims? It
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

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MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

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Old 07-25-2015, 02:52 PM
 
97 posts, read 69,686 times
Reputation: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your counter is very flimsy.


I'll repeat again what is real,
All [if not most] of Muslims terrorists and evil-doers made reference* to the Quran to justify their crime.

* don't be petty to insist they must quote the Quranic verses at every moment. My point is their acts are ultimately traceable to their reliance on Quranic verses as jihadists.
On the contrary Continuum your counter is full of holes!

We could go round in circles.........but I suggest you pay a bit more attention to Woodrow Li previous few posts on the matter.
You seem to have failed to grasp or simply choose not to grasp the points that he and I are making, a shame........because you seem like an intelligent enough chap.

Last edited by Klambo; 07-25-2015 at 03:14 PM..
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