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Old 07-25-2015, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,587,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
We can easily come to a which came first argument.

Did the Terrorists become terrorists because of what they interpret the Qur'an to say or do they interpret the Qur'an as they do because they are terrorists.
You got this wrong.
The point is they [resulting terrorists] interpret the Quran as 'truer' Muslims as dictated by the Quran.

It is most likely that the people quoted above would never have become terrorists if they had not been Muslim in the first place.
Many of these people were decent people but as they become more serious and truer Muslims, they went on the path of terror.

Bin Laden worked as an Engineer
Ayman al-Zawahiri worked in the medical field as a surgeon.
The Bali Bomber went to Islamic School and became a religious teachers.
The Tunisian Gunner was a happy go lucky Hip Hop dancer.
The Chattanooga Gunner was MMA boxer and very easy going guy.

It is reported by families and friends, many of the other terrorists and suicide bombers were reported to be nice people but became a different person the moment they got more serious into Islam.

The CONTROL is we do not get the same degree of effect with other religions, but only with Islam and Muslims.
Therefore it must have something to do with Islam itself and I have traced one of the critical root cause to the tons of evil-laden verses in the Quran which are further compounded and exaggerated in the Hadiths and Sira.


Quote:
I do not find as much as one ayyat in the Qur'an that condones or command
aggression. Yet I am aware that those, who seek justification for terrorism,
find thousands of such.
You have a psychology background and thus should have noted the symptoms of "Attentive Blindness" re not seeing the 500 pounds gorilla in the room.
There are many cases of attentive blindness where there are high primordial emotional stakes, e.g. the mother who could never see the 'evil' in her favorite son but only see the good. This is so common and it is the same with believers of religions, especially most Muslims.

The fact is the evil-laden verses exist in the Quran and is fanned by its martial ethos.

Quote:
I contend that a person with an evil heart, will read out of context and read
partial statements to suit their agenda.
I'll repeat,

The fact is the evil-laden verses exist in the Quran and they are fanned by its martial ethos.

For example;



The fact is 'good' and 'evil' exist in the above picture. I have already presented many similar kind of pictures re 'perception'.
By default the good will general 'see' good while those with evil tendencies will 'see' evil.
However certain conditions could influence the good toward evil and vice-versa.

The fact is the evil-laden verses exist in the Quran and they are fanned by its martial ethos, these evil-laden elements should not be there in the first place. Because of the existence of evil-laden elements within the religion, the religion is a double-edged blade.


Quote:
The worse offenders are those who present them self as "Leaders" and recruit the uneducated to do their evil deeds. the evil misguiding the naive and the adventure seekers.
That is the problem, i.e. blaming others but never noting the three fingers that point to the blamer.

We are not referring to merely political related issues, but the evil-laden elements cause a wide range of other evil violent acts against non-Muslims, i.e. within social, cultural, education, religion, economics, etc.

Last edited by Continuum; 07-25-2015 at 08:56 PM..

 
Old 07-25-2015, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,587,520 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klambo View Post
On the contrary Continuum your counter is full of holes!

We could go round in circles.........but I suggest you pay a bit more attention to Woodrow Li previous few posts on the matter.
You seem to have failed to grasp or simply choose not to grasp the points that he and I are making, a shame........because you seem like an intelligent enough chap.
Note my forte is problem-solving techniques and philosophy. I always make it a point to dig deep for root causes in my diagnosis of any issues and approach them critically in an approach that is as 'water-tight' as possible.

What?? I have been paying attention [with a fine-toothed comb] to Woodrow's throughout the 680++ posts in this thread and many other posts in other threads. You? ... need not even bother to read the rest of the posts in this thread and the critical link I provided.

I suggest to you...."Know Thyself"... make an attempt to understand your own psychological state of why you are ending up as an Islamic-apologist.
 
Old 07-25-2015, 09:42 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You got this wrong.
The point is they [resulting terrorists] interpret the Quran as 'truer' Muslims as dictated by the Quran.

It is most likely that the people quoted above would never have become terrorists if they had not been Muslim in the first place.
Many of these people were decent people but as they become more serious and truer Muslims, they went on the path of terror.

Bin Laden worked as an Engineer
Ayman al-Zawahiri worked in the medical field as a surgeon.
The Bali Bomber went to Islamic School and became a religious teachers.
The Tunisian Gunner was a happy go lucky Hip Hop dancer.
The Chattanooga Gunner was MMA boxer and very easy going guy.

It is reported by families and friends, many of the other terrorists and suicide bombers were reported to be nice people but became a different person the moment they got more serious into Islam.

The CONTROL is we do not get the same degree of effect with other religions, but only with Islam and Muslims.
Therefore it must have something to do with Islam itself and I have traced one of the critical root cause to the tons of evil-laden verses in the Quran which are further compounded and exaggerated in the Hadiths and Sira.


You have a psychology background and thus should have noted the symptoms of "Attentive Blindness" re not seeing the 500 pounds gorilla in the room.
There are many cases of attentive blindness where there are high primordial emotional stakes, e.g. the mother who could never see the 'evil' in her favorite son but only see the good. This is so common and it is the same with believers of religions, especially most Muslims.

The fact is the evil-laden verses exist in the Quran and is fanned by its martial ethos.

I'll repeat,

The fact is the evil-laden verses exist in the Quran and they are fanned by its martial ethos.

For example;



The fact is 'good' and 'evil' exist in the above picture. I have already presented many similar kind of pictures re 'perception'.
By default the good will general 'see' good while those with evil tendencies will 'see' evil.
However certain conditions could influence the good toward evil and vice-versa.

The fact is the evil-laden verses exist in the Quran and they are fanned by its martial ethos, these evil-laden elements should not be there in the first place. Because of the existence of evil-laden elements within the religion, the religion is a double-edged blade.


That is the problem, i.e. blaming others but never noting the three fingers that point to the blamer.

We are not referring to merely political related issues, but the evil-laden elements cause a wide range of other evil violent acts against non-Muslims, i.e. within social, cultural, education, religion, economics, etc.
Just food for thought. virtually every act of violence committed by Muslims is attributed to Islamic influence.

Your. counter shows roughly 27,000 deaths since 2001 that is nearlly 2000 deaths per year for over 1 billion people.

The USA with only 1/5 the number of people averages 12,000 Murders per year. they are not religion motivated.

Which is better a high death rate that is not Islamic motivated. Or a low death rate attributed to Islam, but resulting in about 1/30 the over all number of violent deaths.

While Islam is held accountable for virtually 100% of Religion Motivated Terrorism, It accounts for less than 10% of the terrorist attacks. Over 90% of the world's terrorist attacks have no religious cause.

Next bit of food for thought. Based on the rates of Islamic terrorism and non-religious terrorism, it seems the rate of Terrorism in the Islamic world would increase 9 fold if Islam were to disappear.
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Old 07-25-2015, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,587,520 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Just food for thought. virtually every act of violence committed by Muslims is attributed to Islamic influence.

Your. counter shows roughly 27,000 deaths since 2001 that is nearlly 2000 deaths per year for over 1 billion people.
Hold on! it is not 27,000++ deaths, it is 27,000 INCIDENTS that involved fatalities. Thus the number of deaths would be much more than that as some incidents of bombing by suicide bombers killed 50 to 100++.

Btw, the above only involve fatalities. We must not ignore the rest of other violent and evil acts that did not have fatalities and death.


Quote:
The USA with only 1/5 the number of people averages 12,000 Murders per year. they are not religion motivated.

Which is better a high death rate that is not Islamic motivated. Or a low death rate attributed to Islam, but resulting in about 1/30 the over all number of violent deaths.

While Islam is held accountable for virtually 100% of Religion Motivated Terrorism, It accounts for less than 10% of the terrorist attacks. Over 90% of the world's terrorist attacks have no religious cause.

Next bit of food for thought. Based on the rates of Islamic terrorism and non-religious terrorism, it seems the rate of Terrorism in the Islamic world would increase 9 fold if Islam were to disappear.
Which [death-by-evil] is better??
why is your morality compass? none or not working.
Morally, even one death-by-evil should be a serious concern.

Evils and violence exists.
In general, humanity must deal and prevent ALL types of evils.
It is not efficient to generalize and deal with it on a genera basis.
To be efficient and as a general rule of problem solving we must break down the problem of evil in to manageable categories.
One effective categorization is;
..a -secular evils
..b -religious related evils - re all religions

A sub-category of b is
..i -religious related evils- by Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, etc.
..ii -religious inspired evils - mainly only from Islam

So we must deal with all evils, including secular murders in USA and elsewhere.
In this OP we are dealing with religious inspired evils by SOME Muslims and our mission is to trace to the root causes and find preventive solutions to it.
It is a waste of time to deflect to other issues which are to be handled by respective authorities.

Instead of focusing on the 27,000++ INCIDENTS-with-fatalities by SOME Muslims, what you have been doing is trying to be an ostrich to it and kept asking .... what about this, what about that, to deflect from the real issue of the OP.

Quote:
Next bit of food for thought. Based on the rates of Islamic terrorism and
non-religious terrorism, it seems the rate of Terrorism in the Islamic world
would increase 9 fold if Islam were to disappear.
If Islam were to disappear, the fact is there will be ZERO Islamic related terrorism.
However, the tribal, ethnic and political issues will still be there and there will be fatalities.
When tribal wars are localized it can be easily contained.
What is significant is you won't get people from all over the world going to join the Syrians or Iraq in their specific tribal wars.
Show me the possibility of a 9 fold increase in secular terrorism?

If someone draw an satirical cartoon, there will be no a chain-reaction of rage around the world.

In general, humanity will have greater opportunities to move toward increasing the moral quotient of the average person and therefrom there will be lesser evils in the world.

Last edited by Continuum; 07-25-2015 at 10:58 PM..
 
Old 07-25-2015, 10:48 PM
 
Location: LA County
222 posts, read 188,957 times
Reputation: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Why is Islam so violent?
ask the Christians and Jews who murder in the name of their religion.

and please, do not make me list the instances that will show you up as ignorant and uninformed
 
Old 07-25-2015, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,587,520 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastRefugee2 View Post
ask the Christians and Jews who murder in the name of their religion.

and please, do not make me list the instances that will show you up as ignorant and uninformed
I do not deny there are Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus and other religious believers who murder but there is a difference between religious-related evils and religion-inspired evils.

To avoid being the ignorant and uninformed one,
I suggest you read the last 40 pages in this thread and be informed of the depths I have gone beyond your question above.

Last edited by Continuum; 07-25-2015 at 11:19 PM..
 
Old 07-26-2015, 03:42 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,765 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A counter arguement: If Islam is the cause, there should be a reduction of violence as Islamic influence decreases.


There is virtually no Islamic influence in the USA. Yet, the USA is one of the most violent nations on earth
This means pretty much nothing.

No one is going to say, "Islam is the only factor in violence".


Quote:
I will agree that terrorists often use Islam as an excuse and that most people guilty of religious terrorism are Muslims. But the vast majority of terrorism and violence in the world is not religious motivated.
That violence happens for various reasons doesn't do much to defend Islam.

Quote:
Very few acts of Terrorism have a religious basis, most acts of terrorism are not Religious motivated.
I believe this is factually wrong. It isn't "very few". Religious terrorism is a substantial percentage of all terrorism at the moment.

Even if "most acts" have nothing to do with religion, that does little to defend Islam anyway.



Sunni Muslim 'Extremists' Committed 70% of Terrorist Murders in 2011

Sunni Muslim 'Extremists' Committed 70% of Terrorist Murders in 2011


(CNSNews.com) - Sunni Muslim terrorists committed “about 70 percent” of the 12,533 terrorist murders in the world last year, according to a report by the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC).

The information comes from the 2011 NCTC Report on Terrorism, which is based on information available as of March 12, 2012.

“Sunni extremists accounted for the greatest number of terrorist attacks and fatalities for the third consecutive year,” the report says. “More than 5,700 incidents were attributed to Sunni extremists, accounting for nearly 56 percent of all attacks and about 70 percent of all fatalities.”

The report says that in 2011, a total of 10,283 terrorism attacks across the world killed 12,533 people. Terrorism also is blamed for 25,903 injuries and 5,554 kidnappings.

According to NCTC, of the 12,533 terrorism-related deaths worldwide, 8,886 were perpetrated by “Sunni extremists,” 1,926 by “secular/political/anarchist” groups, 1,519 by “unknown” factions, 170 by a category described as “other”, and 77 by “Neo-Nazi/Fascist/White Supremacist” groups....
 
Old 07-26-2015, 04:09 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,765 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klambo View Post
On the contrary Continuum your counter is full of holes!

We could go round in circles.........but I suggest you pay a bit more attention to Woodrow Li previous few posts on the matter.
You seem to have failed to grasp or simply choose not to grasp the points that he and I are making, a shame........because you seem like an intelligent enough chap.

I would say that your line of argument got easily destroyed by Continuum.


Even if we look at one of your own examples, and just the short quote given, you are wrong I think:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Klambo View Post

Mohammad Sidique Khan London 7/7 bomber:

"I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe. Our drive and motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer. Our religion is Islam, obedience to the one true god and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger. Your democratically-elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters. Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation."




Note the complete lack of reference to the Quran for justification Mr. Continuum???



Now it's certainly the case that there is no explicit mention of the quran in that quote. However, I would say that the quran is being implicitly referenced for justification:

"I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe. Our drive and motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer. Our religion is Islam, obedience to the one true god and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger."


This is basically saying that they are driven by Islam. And that of course will involve the quran. So yes, it is appealing to the quran as a justification for terrorist violence.
 
Old 07-26-2015, 04:35 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,765 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klambo View Post
Muslim extremists are still angered by the West unstinting support of Israel, despite mounting evidence gathered by the UN that Israel does commit war crimes and is nothing short of an apartheid state.
These are the REAL drivers for the terrorist acts committed in Europe rather than any religious ideology.


America’s First War on Terror
By: Andrew G. Bostom

FrontPage Magazine - America


Thomas Jefferson and John Adams, then serving as American ambassadors to France and Britain, respectively, met in 1786 in London with the Tripolitan Ambassador to Britain, Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja. These future American presidents were attempting to negotiate a peace treaty which would spare the United States the ravages of jihad piracy—murder, enslavement (with ransoming for redemption), and expropriation of valuable commercial assets—emanating from the Barbary states (modern Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya, known collectively in Arabic as the Maghrib). During their discussions, they questioned Ambassador Adja as to the source of the unprovoked animus directed at the nascent United States republic. Jefferson and Adams, in their subsequent report to the Continental Congress, recorded the Tripolitan Ambassador’s justification:

… that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.

Thus as Joshua London’s Victory in Tripoli elaborates in lucid prose, an aggressive jihad was already being waged against the United States almost 200 years prior to America becoming a dominant international power in the Middle East. Moreover, these jihad depredations targeting America antedated the earliest vestiges of the Zionist movement by a century, and the formal creation of Israel by 162 years—exploding the ahistorical canard that American support for the modern Jewish state is a prerequisite for jihadist attacks on the United States....
 
Old 07-26-2015, 04:50 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,765 times
Reputation: 64
Note that although Islamic terrorists will use a victimhood narrative, and will claim to be acting "in defence" and will reel off various political grievances, these folks also tend to believe in "aggressive jihad". i.e. they will never stop the warfare regardless of Israel or anything else.
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