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Old 08-05-2015, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
KenFresno, I agree. After reading the Quran there is really no way to see Islam as peaceful and tolerant and good. I read the hadiths and that further cemented what you are saying (I suggest you read the hadiths) and putting that together with about 2,500 conversations with 'moderate' Muslims and watching what has and is happening around the globe...the only question I have left is why so many Westerners would protect Islam. I am truly baffled by this. No matter what history they are shown, no matter how many terrorist attacks happen, no matter what verses from the Quran are presented to them, no matter what they see happening in Europe .... they attack the messenger and protect Islam.
I think you will find that those of us Westerners that accepted Islam, did so because we firmly believe Allaah(swt) exists and the best way to serve Him is by doing Islam.

To be a Western revert to Islam is a constant trial, there is constant attacks against our choice and the result is we HAVE to constantly explain our choice. The result being we do study Islam much more than our "born Muslim" Brothers and Sisters. Those of us that face the constant barrage learn that the true teaching of Islam is Peace and gives us a very strong desire to live life, as a visible example, showing Islam is all about Peace and Co-existence.

Being a lone Muslim in an all non-Muslim community, the online anti-Islamic community is a very strong incentive to prove Islam is the Truth and all about Peace.

I would say the anti-Islam population is a motivating factor to be Muslim, I do not want to be like those who try to get me to leave Islam. Although most who try to change me have been Atheist, I find them to be identical to fundamental Christian Evangelists Constantly trying to show what they perceive is wrong with Islam and not having shown one good reason to accept their lack of belief.

I do give a good deal of gratitude to the proselytizing non-Muslims that try to lead me away from islam. Like constant exercise strengthens muscles, the constant anti-Islaml barrage has greatly strengthened my faith.
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Old 08-05-2015, 09:30 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I think you will find that those of us Westerners that accepted Islam, did so because we firmly believe Allaah(swt) exists and the best way to serve Him is by doing Islam.

To be a Western revert to Islam is a constant trial, there is constant attacks against our choice and the result is we HAVE to constantly explain our choice. The result being we do study Islam much more than our "born Muslim" Brothers and Sisters.

Those of us that face the constant barrage learn that the true teaching of Islam is Peace and gives us a very strong desire to live life, as a visible example, showing Islam is all about Peace and Co-existence.
Being religious do work but it has limits and its cons can be very dangerous especially from SOME evil prone believers.

The fact is when one become a Muslim [or believer of any rigid religion] it is most likely they are like [analogically] being thrown into a tall silo. What they view are the very confined circular walls of the silo and a very narrow view of the sky.

That is the reason why most of the time Muslims do not see the 500 pound gorilla in the room. This is why you [and many others] keep insisting 'Islam is Peace' when in reality, Islam-in-part is not all about peace for all humans on Earth. This point is well proven by the glaring evidence we hear of almost everyday.
 
Old 08-05-2015, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Being religious do work but it has limits and its cons can be very dangerous especially from SOME evil prone believers.

The fact is when one become a Muslim [or believer of any rigid religion] it is most likely they are like [analogically] being thrown into a tall silo. What they view are the very confined circular walls of the silo and a very narrow view of the sky.

That is the reason why most of the time Muslims do not see the 500 pound gorilla in the room. This is why you [and many others] keep insisting 'Islam is Peace' when in reality, Islam-in-part is not all about peace for all humans on Earth. This point is well proven by the glaring evidence we hear of almost everyday.
Yes, I will agree that the onslaught of anti-Islamic rhetoric does put blinders on many if not most of us. A form of tunnel vision does develop when one feels that what they love is being questioned or even attacked.


A good example of Festinger's "inoculation Theory". The more a person has to defend something, the more deeply ingrained their belief in it becomes.

The "attacks" become the cinder blocks limning the hypothetical silo.

When one is in a defensive position, it probably is best to have a silo view of the world. it keeps one focused on a single issue and not getting sidetracked with extraneous factors. Much like my short Military career (8 years) when I had to stay focused on my objective and could not let anything deter me from acheiving what I was required to do.

Yes, out of necessity I am confined to a silo view. Not such a bad thing as it enables me to keep from sliding in my belief the Qur'an teaches peace.
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:43 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
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"To be a Western revert to Islam is a constant trial, there is constant attacks against our choice and the result is we HAVE to constantly explain our choice. The result being we do study Islam much more than our "born Muslim" Brothers and Sisters. Those of us that face the constant barrage learn that the true teaching of Islam is Peace and gives us a very strong desire to live life, as a visible example, showing Islam is all about Peace and Co-existence."

You are up against the Quran, the hadiths and reality. Those of us who have read the Quran know with 100% certainty that much of the Quran is incitement to hate and violence. We've read it first hand. We've heard the hollow arguments of 'context' and 'translation' and 'false verses' and all the rest. We see what is happening to Europe. Over and over Muslims have threatened to kill us, and our families. We were there for the horror of 9-11. You cannot argue against reality. It's like me trying to tell you that there is no Jesus in the bible who was crucified and you just misunderstand the translation. What if I insist there is nothing but love and kindness in the old testament and you just drop context? Would you believe me if I told you these things? All of your arguments fall flat in the face of reality. And I'm not even addressing the mysticism.
 
Old 08-05-2015, 11:33 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"To be a Western revert to Islam is a constant trial, there is constant attacks against our choice and the result is we HAVE to constantly explain our choice. The result being we do study Islam much more than our "born Muslim" Brothers and Sisters. Those of us that face the constant barrage learn that the true teaching of Islam is Peace and gives us a very strong desire to live life, as a visible example, showing Islam is all about Peace and Co-existence."

You are up against the Quran, the hadiths and reality. Those of us who have read the Quran know with 100% certainty that much of the Quran is incitement to hate and violence. We've read it first hand. We've heard the hollow arguments of 'context' and 'translation' and 'false verses' and all the rest. We see what is happening to Europe. Over and over Muslims have threatened to kill us, and our families. We were there for the horror of 9-11. You cannot argue against reality. It's like me trying to tell you that there is no Jesus in the bible who was crucified and you just misunderstand the translation. What if I insist there is nothing but love and kindness in the old testament and you just drop context? Would you believe me if I told you these things? All of your arguments fall flat in the face of reality. And I'm not even addressing the mysticism.
What I see you telling me is you do not understand the Qur'an or know what the Ahadith are. There are over 1,000,000 Ahadith, most have never been translated from the Arabic. Most Muslims do not read the Ahadith, no single person will live long enough to read all of them, Much of the Sunnah and the Sira have never been written. Instead we as Muslims use the rulings of the Madhabs to follow the Qur'an, Ahadith, Sunnah and Sira.

Yes there are many violent Muslims just as there are many violent non-Muslims. We do not have a monopoly on maniacs.

Yes, there are Muslim that take ayyats of the Qur'an out of context and view them as commands. Just as there are non-Muslims who read the Qur'an with that attitude.



The Qur'an is not an instruction book on how to perform Islam It is an explanation as to why we should, not how. the Madhabs are the HOW.

As for 9/11 there is at least one member here on City-Data who was working in one of the towers during 9/11. She worked there with Muslims who were killed in the attack. 9/11 did not turn her against Islam or cause her to hate Muslims. She still has Muslim friends and does not blame Islam for the act of 19 people.
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Old 08-06-2015, 12:20 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Yes, I will agree that the onslaught of anti-Islamic rhetoric does put blinders on many if not most of us. A form of tunnel vision does develop when one feels that what they love is being questioned or even attacked.

A good example of Festinger's "inoculation Theory". The more a person has to defend something, the more deeply ingrained their belief in it becomes.

The "attacks" become the cinder blocks linning the hypothetical silo.

When one is in a defensive position, it probably is best to have a silo view of the world. it keeps one focused on a single issue and not getting sidetracked with extraneous factors. Much like my short Military career (8 years) when I had to stay focused on my objective and could not let anything deter me from acheiving what I was required to do.

Yes, out of necessity I am confined to a silo view. Not such a bad thing as it enables me to keep from sliding in my belief the Qur'an teaches peace.
I like your frank admission to the above.
Btw, I have no issues with people who are thrown into silos and are inoculated to see messages of 'peace' which can only be applicable for oneself only. I am not too concerned with such good individuals in respect of this OP.

Btw, the "Inoculation theory" cuts both ways, which could be good or evil.
Just as you are inoculated with messages of peace from the Quran, at the same time there are evil prone Muslims who are inoculated with messages of violence and evil from the Quran.
Thus I am more concern with evil individuals acting like in swarms of locust emerging from being brainwashed with violence from the Quran [& related holy texts] within their confined silo.

My point is the same Quran that enable many Muslims a sense of peace, also catalyze and facilitate SOME Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims [infidels, Kafir, Kuffar].

Any one with any basic sense of morality should be concerned about those evils and violence. Muslims should thus be critical and give a balance view of the Quran and the related 'violent' texts instead of being emotionally, psychologically and cognitively blind to it.

Btw, I think the "Inoculation theory" is merely one theory amongst the many that play a role in the issue of 'Islam and Violence". There are many, e.g. confirmation bias, inattentive blindness, and others.
 
Old 08-06-2015, 12:04 PM
 
Location: San Jose
2,107 posts, read 640,766 times
Reputation: 2255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I think you will find that those of us Westerners that accepted Islam, did so because we firmly believe Allaah(swt) exists and the best way to serve Him is by doing Islam.

To be a Western revert to Islam is a constant trial, there is constant attacks against our choice and the result is we HAVE to constantly explain our choice. The result being we do study Islam much more than our "born Muslim" Brothers and Sisters. Those of us that face the constant barrage learn that the true teaching of Islam is Peace and gives us a very strong desire to live life, as a visible example, showing Islam is all about Peace and Co-existence.

Being a lone Muslim in an all non-Muslim community, the online anti-Islamic community is a very strong incentive to prove Islam is the Truth and all about Peace.

I would say the anti-Islam population is a motivating factor to be Muslim, I do not want to be like those who try to get me to leave Islam. Although most who try to change me have been Atheist, I find them to be identical to fundamental Christian Evangelists Constantly trying to show what they perceive is wrong with Islam and not having shown one good reason to accept their lack of belief.

I do give a good deal of gratitude to the proselytizing non-Muslims that try to lead me away from islam. Like constant exercise strengthens muscles, the constant anti-Islaml barrage has greatly strengthened my faith.
You also need to know what its like engage with the Muslim community as a non-Muslim. You speak of Islam as being about co-existence and peace. Yet your holy books speak of conquest, conversation and domination. Your fellow religious brethren have zero tolerance or respect for people of other religious faiths. When a Muslim community moves into a new area, they don't make an attempt to respect the culture and heritage of those that welcomed them in. No instead they seek to make the host community bend to their their cultural norms. There is a rigid unwillingness to tolerant and respect others that has made the Muslim community unpopular the world over. If Muslims keep to themselves there would be no hatred of Islam.

If the constant barrage of hate against Islam is getting to you then why not start dealing with the core issues of Islam that are causing such hate as appose to mentally retreating. Why not come out strongly against the many atrocities committed in the name of Islam on a weekly basis across the world. The silence from moderate Muslims concerning the wanton violence perpetuated by Islamic extremist speaks volumes about how much they care about others. So please no talk about peace and co-existence until we see some actions that prove otherwise.
 
Old 08-06-2015, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
You also need to know what its like engage with the Muslim community as a non-Muslim. You speak of Islam as being about co-existence and peace. Yet your holy books speak of conquest, conversation and domination. Your fellow religious brethren have zero tolerance or respect for people of other religious faiths. When a Muslim community moves into a new area, they don't make an attempt to respect the culture and heritage of those that welcomed them in. No instead they seek to make the host community bend to their their cultural norms. There is a rigid unwillingness to tolerant and respect others that has made the Muslim community unpopular the world over. If Muslims keep to themselves there would be no hatred of Islam.

If the constant barrage of hate against Islam is getting to you then why not start dealing with the core issues of Islam that are causing such hate as appose to mentally retreating. Why not come out strongly against the many atrocities committed in the name of Islam on a weekly basis across the world. The silence from moderate Muslims concerning the wanton violence perpetuated by Islamic extremist speaks volumes about how much they care about others. So please no talk about peace and co-existence until we see some actions that prove otherwise.
You have to look at each of us as individuals. Many perhaps most of us here in the USA are not recent immigrants

My Grandparents came here from Lithuania in 1895. My wifes people (Northern Cheyenne) were here before Columbus.

Our ancestral culturers are Native American and Lithuanian, we live up here in North Dakota where the majority Culture is Scandinavian. I am not aware of any things that can be called "Muslim" culture but do know Muslims of many different cultures--Iraqi, Arab, Pakistani, Somali, Indonesian, Chinese and Malay. Like all immigrants they do tend to stay in their own communities and for several generations adhere to old customs.

This has also happend among non-Muslim British, Iriash. French, German, Italian etc that immigrated en-masse to America.

But because a person is Muslim does not mean they are immigrants and have a foreign culture.

I do come out against atrocities committed by Muslims but I am not going to accept the blame for anything I have not personally done nor apologize for anyone's actions except my own.
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Old 08-06-2015, 01:40 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,500,940 times
Reputation: 3870
Same old ...
Islamic State group claims Saudi mosque suicide blast - BBC News

On a side note - I'd say it's apparent that the more pious the religionist - the more room (or rationale) for violence. One rarely hears of a 'secular' (casual-cultural) religious adherent committing violence in the name of religion. Religion's the problem.
 
Old 08-06-2015, 01:46 PM
 
Location: San Jose
2,107 posts, read 640,766 times
Reputation: 2255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You have to look at each of us as individuals. Many perhaps most of us here in the USA are not recent immigrants

My Grandparents came here from Lithuania in 1895. My wifes people (Northern Cheyenne) were here before Columbus.

Our ancestral culturers are Native American and Lithuanian, we live up here in North Dakota where the majority Culture is Scandinavian. I am not aware of any things that can be called "Muslim" culture but do know Muslims of many different cultures--Iraqi, Arab, Pakistani, Somali, Indonesian, Chinese and Malay. Like all immigrants they do tend to stay in their own communities and for several generations adhere to old customs.

This has also happend among non-Muslim British, Iriash. French, German, Italian etc that immigrated en-masse to America.

But because a person is Muslim does not mean they are immigrants and have a foreign culture.

I do come out against atrocities committed by Muslims but I am not going to accept the blame for anything I have not personally done nor apologize for anyone's actions except my own.
I engage with Muslims in my personal life as individuals. But societies engage with each other as as collective groups. Islamic communities have been very very intolerant of other faith communities and have committed horrible atrocities in the name of Islam. When you join a group you become a representative of that group so while you shouldn't be personally held responsible for the violent actions of other Muslims you shouldn't be surprised when people harbor resentment toward your adopted community.
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