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Old 08-06-2015, 01:58 PM
 
Location: San Jose
2,166 posts, read 651,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
Same old ...
Islamic State group claims Saudi mosque suicide blast - BBC News

On a side note - I'd say it's apparent that the more pious the religionist - the more room (or rationale) for violence. One rarely hears of a 'secular' (casual-cultural) religious adherent committing violence in the name of religion. Religion's the problem.
One of the things that is very frustrating is that western society has been very reluctant to counter the philosophical claims of Islam in open debate. So instead of challenging the root of the problem which is the core tenets of Islam we constantly blame of the actions of Islamic extremist on politics or western society. It has got us nowhere. Whats even more tragic about the whole state of affairs is that the apologist for Islam have come entirely from the political left. I cannot think of an ideology more anti-liberal then Islam. Real life is truly stranger then fiction.

 
Old 08-06-2015, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
One of the things that is very frustrating is that western society has been very reluctant to counter the philosophical claims of Islam in open debate. So instead of challenging the root of the problem which is the core tenets of Islam we constantly blame of the actions of Islamic extremist on politics or western society. It has got us nowhere. Whats even more tragic about the whole state of affairs is that the apologist for Islam have come entirely from the political left. I cannot think of an ideology more anti-liberal then Islam. Real life is truly stranger then fiction.

There are no "Core Tenets of Islam" in the context there are core tenets of Christianity.

We are not an organization. Islam is the individual act of submitting to Allah(swt). We did not "Join" Islam. Islam is a verb not the name of an organization. A Muslim is a person who performs the action of Islam..

The only things we all have in common is we all believe submission to Allaah(swt) is done through the 5 Pillars of Islam

1. Aknowledge there is only one God(swt) and Muhammad(saws) is the final Messenger
2. Establish daily prayers
3. Donate to Charity
4. Fast during Ramadan
5. Make the pilgrimage to Mecca at least once, if we are financially and physically able.

Outside of that we are very individual and more likely to follow National or family culture more than any teachings of Islam.

There is much diversity among us. We do disagree in regards to theology, we do have different interpretations of the Qur'an and we do differ in opinions of practice.

About 90% of us profess to be Sunni and even we differ as to if a Madhab should be followed and if so which one. We do differ over Ahadith. We have no ordained Clergy and acept no person as being the Authority for Islam.
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Old 08-06-2015, 03:52 PM
 
Location: San Jose
2,166 posts, read 651,989 times
Reputation: 2316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are no "Core Tenets of Islam" in the context there are core tenets of Christianity.

We are not an organization. Islam is the individual act of submitting to Allah(swt). We did not "Join" Islam. Islam is a verb not the name of an organization. A Muslim is a person who performs the action of Islam..

The only things we all have in common is we all believe submission to Allaah(swt) is done through the 5 Pillars of Islam

1. Aknowledge there is only one God(swt) and Muhammad(saws) is the final Messenger
2. Establish daily prayers
3. Donate to Charity
4. Fast during Ramadan
5. Make the pilgrimage to Mecca at least once, if we are financially and physically able.

Outside of that we are very individual and more likely to follow National or family culture more than any teachings of Islam.

There is much diversity among us. We do disagree in regards to theology, we do have different interpretations of the Qur'an and we do differ in opinions of practice.

About 90% of us profess to be Sunni and even we differ as to if a Madhab should be followed and if so which one. We do differ over Ahadith. We have no ordained Clergy and acept no person as being the Authority for Islam.
There are "Core Tenets of Islam", there are "Core Tenets" of every religious and philosophical institution. How else would you distinguish Christianity from Hinduism or Fascism from Pacifism? Its fascinating that in the 5 Pillars of Islam there is no mention of submission to Allah being done only under someone's free will. Therefore it leaves open the notion that someone can be coerced into Islam against their free will. Which millions were throughout history. Which is exactly the problem I was highlighting before concerning the core tenets of Islam. It allows and leaves open interpretations that can manifest into brutal violence.
 
Old 08-06-2015, 06:02 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,506,077 times
Reputation: 3870
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
One of the things that is very frustrating is that western society has been very reluctant to counter the philosophical claims of Islam in open debate. So instead of challenging the root of the problem which is the core tenets of Islam we constantly blame of the actions of Islamic extremist on politics or western society. It has got us nowhere. Whats even more tragic about the whole state of affairs is that the apologist for Islam have come entirely from the political left. I cannot think of an ideology more anti-liberal then Islam. Real life is truly stranger then fiction.
It's the tendency of the liberal/left to side with the perceived 'underdog'. I'm reminded of a situation in the Netherlands where a group of well intended social workers were happy to accommodate a group of refugees, all went well, until the victims of ill fortune demanded a separate entrance for the women. A quintessential liberal dilemma.
 
Old 08-06-2015, 06:20 PM
 
Location: San Jose
2,166 posts, read 651,989 times
Reputation: 2316
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
It's the tendency of the liberal/left to side with the perceived 'underdog'. I'm reminded of a situation in the Netherlands where a group of well intended social workers were happy to accommodate a group of refugees, all went well, until the victims of ill fortune demanded a separate entrance for the women. A quintessential liberal dilemma.
That's hilarious and tragic in equal measure. You are 100% correct about how the liberal/left perceives the Muslim community as "underdogs". Even though they are not. The true tragedy in all of this is that in there own nations, Muslims discriminate openly against religious minorities. Such as the Kurds, Druze, Jews and Christians. Yet these persecuted minorities get no love from the western liberal / left and the Muslims who do move to the US and Europe come over a victim complex. It beggars belief.
 
Old 08-06-2015, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
There are "Core Tenets of Islam", there are "Core Tenets" of every religious and philosophical institution. How else would you distinguish Christianity from Hinduism or Fascism from Pacifism? Its fascinating that in the 5 Pillars of Islam there is no mention of submission to Allah being done only under someone's free will. Therefore it leaves open the notion that someone can be coerced into Islam against their free will. Which millions were throughout history. Which is exactly the problem I was highlighting before concerning the core tenets of Islam. It allows and leaves open interpretations that can manifest into brutal violence.
We do believe that those who follow actual Judaism or Christianity do perform Islam we do believe all from Adam to Jesus(a.s.) did truly submit to God(swt) and performed Islam.

We do not believe Islam is anything new. One can only perform Islam under their own free will.

There is no joining anything and no ritual that makes a person a Muslim.

While it might be possible to coerce a person into saying they are Muslim, that does not make them a Muslim. there is no way to tell if a person is performing Islam except for their saying they are. It is not required to attend a Mosque, although we believe a person gains blessings by doing so.

But over all it is impossible to verify a person is going through the motions of Islam unless we watch their every move for 24 hours a day 365 days a year. Even then we still do not know if a person is performing Islam, because if they are doing so of their own free will they are not doing Islam.

We have no way to verify a person is a Muslim, except their own word that they are.
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Old 08-06-2015, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,117,789 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
You are 100% correct about how the liberal/left perceives the Muslim community as "underdogs".

It beggars belief.
In my opinion, it beggars belief that an intelligent person would even care what the liberal/left perceives to be true.
 
Old 08-06-2015, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
We do believe that those who follow actual Judaism or Christianity do perform Islam we do believe all from Adam to Jesus(a.s.) did truly submit to God(swt) and performed Islam.
We do not believe Islam is anything new. One can only perform Islam under their own free will.
There is no joining anything and no ritual that makes a person a Muslim.

While it might be possible to coerce a person into saying they are Muslim, that does not make them a Muslim. there is no way to tell if a person is performing Islam except for their saying they are. It is not required to attend a Mosque, although we believe a person gains blessings by doing so.

But over all it is impossible to verify a person is going through the motions of Islam unless we watch their every move for 24 hours a day 365 days a year. Even then we still do not know if a person is performing Islam, because if they are doing so of their own free will they are not doing Islam.

We have no way to verify a person is a Muslim, except their own word that they are.
All humans are "infected" with an inborn inherent existential dilemma. Therefrom the majority relied on 'religions' to ease the related angst of the existential dilemma.
What is generic to ALL these believers is 'religiosity' per se and that is not Islam.

Islam was invented by a man named Muhammad who had an altered state experience who do has any fundamentals and thereby hijacked various elements of the existing religions. Initially Muhammad tried to appease the Jews and Christians [as believing in the same as what he was preaching] to seduce them to join him but because they are more spiritually matured, they rejected Muhammad and mocked him as a madman [as stated in the Quran].

What is Islam is not generic to humans but rather qualified solely to what is in the Quran, nothing else but only the Quran.
The Quran stipulate the essential elements of 'what is a Muslim'.
The Quran even rank the degree one is Muslim, i.e. whether one is a lesser-Muslim or a truer-Muslims and rewards in heaven are accorded to one's achievements as a very good or sinful Muslim.
Note my OP re 'Believe stronger than Submit.'

The problem is SOME Muslims [perhaps desperate for virgins and what not ] strive very hard to be as perfect as possible in being a Muslim. This is why they go to the extreme of killing and committing various evils on non-Muslims [derogatorily -the infidels, Kuffar, kafir].
This is an obvious fact that is happening at present almost on a daily and sustained basis. There is nothing to stop these fundamentalist as there is no central authority [a very critical weakness] within the Islamic community to decide what is wrong and what is right.
 
Old 08-07-2015, 12:27 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,506,077 times
Reputation: 3870
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
In my opinion, it beggars belief that an intelligent person would even care what the liberal/left perceives to be true.
Well ... since those who engage in political correctness, cultural relativism, often hold considerably sway - to not in some ways care - would be a blunder. Your post merely comes across as a bit of inane provocation.
 
Old 08-07-2015, 06:15 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
I engage with Muslims in my personal life as individuals. But societies engage with each other as as collective groups. Islamic communities have been very very intolerant of other faith communities and have committed horrible atrocities in the name of Islam. When you join a group you become a representative of that group so while you shouldn't be personally held responsible for the violent actions of other Muslims you shouldn't be surprised when people harbor resentment toward your adopted community.
As my wife and myself are the only Muslims within a 100+ Mile Radius and because of my wife being Cheyenne we live primarily among the Lakotah I guess my adopted Community is the Lakotah and we are waiting for the White invaders to get off of Turtle Island (America) and go back to Europe.

My Wife's ancestors made the Mistake of feeding the Starving Wasicu in 1612 at the Plymouth Colony. in exchange they slaughtered he ancestors and stole the land.

Actually in real life we face much more prejudice over my wife being Native American than because we are Muslim..It is only here online in what is the Islamic Forum I face almost constant anti-Islamic sentiment.
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