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Old 08-07-2015, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,612 posts, read 4,206,407 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It is only here online in what is the Islamic Forum I face almost constant anti-Islamic sentiment.
Maybe it is because you write posts supporting Female Circumcision.

Please refer to this topic starting with post #48.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/islam...-rights-5.html

 
Old 08-07-2015, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,739,389 times
Reputation: 7453
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Maybe it is because you write posts supporting Female Circumcision.

Please refer to this topic starting with post #48.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/islam...-rights-5.html

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Show the post where I said I condone Female circumcision.
Sure, no problem.

You gave a link to a site that had this horrible story of a 5-year old girl being violated:

BANDUNG, INDONESIA – Thrashing wildly, 5-year-old Reta wails as she is hoisted onto a bed during a circumcision ceremony in a school hall-turned-clinic on Indonesia’s island of Java. “No, no, no,” she cries, punching and kicking as her mother cups her tear-soaked face to soothe her.

Doctors cheer encouragingly. One of them gently swipes the girl’s genital area with antiseptic and then swiftly pricks the hood of her clitoris with a fresh sewing needle, drawing no blood. The ordeal is over in seconds.

Doctors say the procedure will have no effect on the girl, her sexual pleasure in later life or ability to bear a child.

“I’m happy. My daughter is now clean,” her mother Yuli, a 27-year-old seamstress who goes by one name, said at a mass circumcision of 120 girls at the Assalaam Foundation’s Islamic school in the city of Bandung.

She believes the ritual will nevertheless have an effect.

“Many girls are getting pregnant out of wedlock these days,” she noted. “Circumcision hopefully will prevent my daughter from becoming oversexed, and will make her less amorous when she grows up.”

Indonesia, home to the world’s biggest Muslim population, argues that this form of circumcision is largely symbolic, not harmful and should not be seen as mutilation.


This is your comment about the story:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The allowed Circumcision is symbolic, no cutting done. No bleeding takes place. Nothing is cut or removed.

It is not required and only permitted as long as no harm is done.
Since you said this horrible act against a 5-year old girl is "allowed" and "permitted" according to Islam, then that means you and your religion condone female circumcision.

Very disgusting, in my opinion.
At no time did I say I support Female Circumcision. The "Symbolic circumcision " is just that not an actual circumcision no cutting involved.

In parts of Africa FGM is so deeply ingrained in the culture that it will continue if alternatives are not given. I do not approve or advocate such, but if it is stopping FGM I think it the best choice as the lesser of 2 evils.
 
Old 08-07-2015, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,612 posts, read 4,206,407 times
Reputation: 1405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
At no time did I say I support Female Circumcision. The "Symbolic circumcision " is just that not an actual circumcision no cutting involved.
You supported this part of the "Symbolic circumcision" in which a young girl is traumatized.

Thrashing wildly, 5-year-old Reta wails as she is hoisted onto a bed during a circumcision ceremony in a school hall-turned-clinic on Indonesia’s island of Java. “No, no, no,” she cries, punching and kicking as her mother cups her tear-soaked face to soothe her.

No wonder people are offended by some of the things you say. This is why your posts generate negative replies.
 
Old 08-07-2015, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,739,389 times
Reputation: 7453
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
You supported this part of the "Symbolic circumcision" in which a young girl is traumatized.

Thrashing wildly, 5-year-old Reta wails as she is hoisted onto a bed during a circumcision ceremony in a school hall-turned-clinic on Indonesia’s island of Java. “No, no, no,” she cries, punching and kicking as her mother cups her tear-soaked face to soothe her.

No wonder people are offended by some of the things you say. This is why your posts generate negative replies.
So be it.

I have no control over how people interpret my posts. I can only express to the best of my ability and if it is misunderstood I will accept that as my failure to communicate accuratly.

That does not upset me,

What does upset me are those who are fighting a Jihad to "Prove" Islam is wrong and not showing what is good about their own beliefs or disbelief.

It is far better for a person to state reasons why they are correct, rather then concentrating on why somebody else is wrong.



With that said I do not support Female Circumcision, it is not supported in the Qur'an, Ahadith or any of the 4 Madhabs. The regions that practice it seem to be following ancient pre-Islamic culture.

It is not limited to Islam. In Ethiopia for instance it is a predominately Christian and Jewish practice.

World wide among people of all faiths and no faiths the most effective tool at combating FGM is symbolic Circumcision, with no cutting involved.

Quote:
In an effort to prevent female genital cutting, the American Academy of Pediatrics last week released a policy statement endorsing the use of a “ritual nick” on a female baby’s genitals. Doing so, the Academy writes, could “save some girls from undergoing disfiguring and life-threatening procedures in their native country.”
 
Old 08-08-2015, 01:34 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 799,580 times
Reputation: 436
"With that said I do not support Female Circumcision, it is not supported in the Qur'an, Ahadith or any of the 4 Madhabs. "

I'm not so sure about that:

"Could you explain me what is the medical benefit of girl’s circumcision?

...Circumcision is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah, as is indicated by the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): "The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, plucking the armpit hairs, cutting the nails, and trimming the moustache." narrated by al-Bukhaari (5889) and Muslim (257)..... Circumcision is prescribed for both males and females. The correct view is that circumcision is obligatory for males and that it is one of the symbols of Islam, and that circumcision of women is mustahabb but not obligatory.

There are reports in the Sunnah which indicate that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam. In Madeenah there was a woman who circumcised women and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (5271), classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

Medical benefits of female circumcision - islamqa.info

Circumcision is not an inherited custom as some people claim, rather it is prescribed in Islam and the scholars are unanimously agreed that it is prescribed. Not a single Muslim scholar – as far as we know – has said that circumcision is not prescribed.

Their evidence is to be found in the saheeh ahaadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which prove that it is prescribed, for example:

1-

The hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (5889) and Muslim (257) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the armpit hairs, and trimming the moustache."

This hadeeth includes circumcision of both males and females.

2-

Muslim (349) narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory.”

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned the two circumcised parts, i.e., the circumcised part of the husband and the circumcised part of the wife, which indicates that a woman may be circumcised just like a man.

3-

Abu Dawood (5271) narrated from Umm ‘Atiyyah al-Ansaariyyah that a woman used to do circumcisions in Madeenah and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” But the scholars differed concerning this hadeeth. Some of them classed it as da’eef (weak) and others classed it as saheeh. It was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood. The fact that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam is confirmed by the ahaadeeth quoted above, not by this disputed hadeeth. But the scholars differed concerning the ruling, and there are three opinions:

1 – That it is obligatory for both males and females. This is the view of the Shaafa’is and Hanbalis, and is the view favoured by al-Qaadi Abu Bakr ibn al-‘Arabi among the Maalikis (may Allaah have mercy on them all).

Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Majmoo’ (1/367): Circumcision is obligatory for both men and women in our view. This is the view of many of the salaf, as was narrated by al-Khattaabi. Among those who regarded it as obligatory is Ahmad… it is the correct view that is well known and was stated by al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him), and the majority stated definitively that it is obligatory for both men and women. end quote.

See Fath al-Baari, 10/340; Kishshaaf al-Qinaa’, 1/80

2 – That circumcision is Sunnah for both males and females. This is the view of the Hanafis and Maalikis, and was narrated in one report from Ahmad. Ibn ‘Aabideen al-Hanafi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Haashiyah (6/751): In Kitaab al-Tahaarah of al-Siraaj al-Wahhaaj it says: Know that circumcision is Sunnah in our view – i.e., according to the Hanafis – for men and for women. end quote.

See: Mawaahib al-Jaleel, 3/259

3 – That circumcision is obligatory for men and is good and mustahabb for women. This is the third view of Imam Ahmad, and it is the view of some Maalikis such as Sahnoon. This view was also favoured by al-Muwaffaq ibn Qudaamah in al-Mughni.

See: al-Tamheed, 21/60; al-Mughni, 1/63

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (5/223):

Circumcision is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah, and it is for both males and females, except that is it obligatory for males and Sunnah and good in the case of women. End quote

Thus it is clear that the fuqaha’ of Islam are agreed that circumcision is prescribed for both males and females, and in fact the majority of them are of the view that it is obligatory for both. No one said that it is not prescribed or that it is makrooh or haraam.

etc...

Circumcision of girls and some doctors
 
Old 08-08-2015, 05:57 AM
 
352 posts, read 333,502 times
Reputation: 54
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.



I have never been a big fan of Ahadiith. Although I know of the Science of Ahadiith, too many hadiith have been forged. I cannot place my confidence in them.



Thousands of counterfeit hadiith




Wassalaam. devotee
 
Old 08-08-2015, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,739,389 times
Reputation: 7453
Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.



I have never been a big fan of Ahadiith. Although I know of the Science of Ahadiith, too many hadiith have been forged. I cannot place my confidence in them.



Thousands of counterfeit hadiith




Wassalaam. devotee
While I am not a Hadith rejector, I do not believe a person should attempt to interpret Ahadith unless they have first done an extensive study of the "Science of Hadith" and do know the Ahadith are the word of humans and are eye witness reports limited by the memory of the Reporter. And yes some Ahadith are Fake/Forgeries etc.

Far better one rely upon the rulings of a Madhab rather than interpreting Ahadith.
 
Old 08-08-2015, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,739,389 times
Reputation: 7453
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"With that said I do not support Female Circumcision, it is not supported in the Qur'an, Ahadith or any of the 4 Madhabs. "

I'm not so sure about that:

"Could you explain me what is the medical benefit of girl’s circumcision?

...Circumcision is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah, as is indicated by the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): "The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, plucking the armpit hairs, cutting the nails, and trimming the moustache." narrated by al-Bukhaari (5889) and Muslim (257)..... Circumcision is prescribed for both males and females. The correct view is that circumcision is obligatory for males and that it is one of the symbols of Islam, and that circumcision of women is mustahabb but not obligatory.

There are reports in the Sunnah which indicate that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam. In Madeenah there was a woman who circumcised women and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (5271), classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

Medical benefits of female circumcision - islamqa.info

Circumcision is not an inherited custom as some people claim, rather it is prescribed in Islam and the scholars are unanimously agreed that it is prescribed. Not a single Muslim scholar – as far as we know – has said that circumcision is not prescribed.

Their evidence is to be found in the saheeh ahaadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which prove that it is prescribed, for example:

1-

The hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (5889) and Muslim (257) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the armpit hairs, and trimming the moustache."

This hadeeth includes circumcision of both males and females.

2-

Muslim (349) narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory.”

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned the two circumcised parts, i.e., the circumcised part of the husband and the circumcised part of the wife, which indicates that a woman may be circumcised just like a man.

3-

Abu Dawood (5271) narrated from Umm ‘Atiyyah al-Ansaariyyah that a woman used to do circumcisions in Madeenah and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” But the scholars differed concerning this hadeeth. Some of them classed it as da’eef (weak) and others classed it as saheeh. It was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood. The fact that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam is confirmed by the ahaadeeth quoted above, not by this disputed hadeeth. But the scholars differed concerning the ruling, and there are three opinions:

1 – That it is obligatory for both males and females. This is the view of the Shaafa’is and Hanbalis, and is the view favoured by al-Qaadi Abu Bakr ibn al-‘Arabi among the Maalikis (may Allaah have mercy on them all).

Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Majmoo’ (1/367): Circumcision is obligatory for both men and women in our view. This is the view of many of the salaf, as was narrated by al-Khattaabi. Among those who regarded it as obligatory is Ahmad… it is the correct view that is well known and was stated by al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him), and the majority stated definitively that it is obligatory for both men and women. end quote.

See Fath al-Baari, 10/340; Kishshaaf al-Qinaa’, 1/80

2 – That circumcision is Sunnah for both males and females. This is the view of the Hanafis and Maalikis, and was narrated in one report from Ahmad. Ibn ‘Aabideen al-Hanafi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Haashiyah (6/751): In Kitaab al-Tahaarah of al-Siraaj al-Wahhaaj it says: Know that circumcision is Sunnah in our view – i.e., according to the Hanafis – for men and for women. end quote.

See: Mawaahib al-Jaleel, 3/259

3 – That circumcision is obligatory for men and is good and mustahabb for women. This is the third view of Imam Ahmad, and it is the view of some Maalikis such as Sahnoon. This view was also favoured by al-Muwaffaq ibn Qudaamah in al-Mughni.

See: al-Tamheed, 21/60; al-Mughni, 1/63

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (5/223):

Circumcision is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah, and it is for both males and females, except that is it obligatory for males and Sunnah and good in the case of women. End quote

Thus it is clear that the fuqaha’ of Islam are agreed that circumcision is prescribed for both males and females, and in fact the majority of them are of the view that it is obligatory for both. No one said that it is not prescribed or that it is makrooh or haraam.

etc...

Circumcision of girls and some doctors
Just answering one question:

There is no medical benefit for Female Circumcision and it is more likely to cause harm instead of providing any benefit.

Quote:
Mutilating Facts: Setting the Record Straight About Female Circumcision & Genital Mutilation
April 26, 2012 by ali
1. PREAMBLE
Female circumcision today has been made synonymous with female genital mutilation. This has added to much confusion as well as has raised legitimate as well as ill-motivated concerns regarding the position of either act under Islamic Law. As such, and preamble to the discussion submitted in the Paper below, it must be publicly and categorically stated that female genital mutilation is prohibited under Islamic Law. The prohibition is such that it is considered a crime under law deserving of full compensatory considerations. One of the most senior Jurists of all time, Imam Malik, considered it similar to a person losing any other bodily limb, and subject to full force of the law.[1]
This entire discussion is underpinned by a Hadīth which states:
On the authority Of Abdullah bin Yazid Al-Ansari, The Messenger of God, upon whom be peace and blessings of God The Exalted, forbade robbery and mutilation of bodily limbs.[2]

Mutilating Facts: Setting the Record Straight About Female Circumcision & Genital Mutilation - SeekersHub Blog
 
Old 08-08-2015, 11:44 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 799,580 times
Reputation: 436
"This entire discussion is underpinned by a Hadīth which states:
On the authority Of Abdullah bin Yazid Al-Ansari, The Messenger of God, upon whom be peace and blessings of God The Exalted, forbade robbery and mutilation of bodily limbs."

Bodily limbs, not sex organs!

If allah wanted people to be circumcised...why doesn't he make them this way? Instead, he loves the terror and pain and hopelessness of a child having their tender sex organs cut? This is certainly not merciful or compassionate!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mspMEMD8OeE


Quran 5:33 Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

Quran 5:38 Cut off (from the wrist joint) the (right) hand of the thief, male or female, as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allah.
 
Old 08-08-2015, 12:32 PM
 
400 posts, read 335,506 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
From the article:

"Swedish girls Malin and Amanda were on their way to a party on New Year’s Eve when they were assaulted, raped and beaten half to death by four Somali immigrants. Sweden’s largest newspaper has presented the perpetrators as “two men from Sweden, one from Finland and one from Somalia”, a testimony as to how bad the informal censorship is in stories related to immigration in Sweden. Similar incidents are reported with shocking frequency, to the point where some observers fear that law and order is completely breaking down in the country. The number of rape charges in Sweden has tripled in just above twenty years. Rape cases involving children under the age of 15 are six - 6 - times as common today as they were a generation ago. Most other kinds of violent crime have rapidly increased, too. Instability is spreading to most urban and suburban areas.

According to a new study from the Crime Prevention Council, Brå, it is four times more likely that a known rapist is born abroad, compared to persons born in Sweden. Resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the group of rape suspects. According to these statistics, almost half of all perpetrators are immigrants. In Norway and Denmark, we know that non-Western immigrants, which frequently means Muslims, are grossly overrepresented on rape statistics. In Oslo, Norway, immigrants were involved in two out of three rape charges in 2001. The numbers in Denmark were the same, and even higher in the city of Copenhagen with three out of four rape charges. Sweden has a larger immigrant, including Muslim, population than any other country in northern Europe. The numbers there are likely to be at least as bad as with its Scandinavian neighbors. The actual number is thus probably even higher than what the authorities are reporting now, as it doesn’t include second generation immigrants. Lawyer Ann Christine Hjelm, who has investigated violent crimes in Svea high court, found that 85 per cent of the convicted rapists were born on foreign soil or by foreign parents."

I think we're looking at a mistake here. Grossly overrepresented should be grossly UNDERrepresented.

For example:
HUNDREDS MORE MUSLIM RAPE GANG CASES DISCOVERED IN UK
Yet for Britain’s PC authorities, the perpetrators are “untouchable.”
"The Muslim rape gang scandal in Britain just keeps getting worse. Last August, the BBC reported that “at least 1,400 children were subjected to appalling sexual exploitation in Rotherham between 1997 and 2013, a report has found. Children as young as 11 were raped by multiple perpetrators, abducted, trafficked to other cities in England, beaten and intimidated, it said.” Five months later, not only has little been done to combat this scourge, but it has grown exponentially worse: hundreds of new cases have been discovered, and one of the victims says that those who abused her are “untouchable.”
Hundreds More Muslim Rape Gang Cases Discovered in UK | Frontpage Mag


Number of Muslims in prison doubles in decade to 12,000 - UK Politics - UK - The Independent
It seems this might not be due to their religion, but to their race.
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