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Old 02-09-2015, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,036 posts, read 4,198,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
Interesting article on how Daesh looks to Islamic history to justify its violence.

Isis has reached new depths of depravity. But there is a brutal logic behind it | World news | The Guardian
This is something that has been misused and abused by Christians forever ago. They took 3000 year old acts of violence in the Old Testament and use those to justify horrible atrocities. There are still small examples from time to time, but such justification of extreme brutality has become a huge taboo for modern Christianity. For example, Catholics aren't looking back at the Spanish Inquisition with pride as a model for future behavior. Instead, all the brutality of the Inquisitions are remembered by Catholics with shame and loathing. The brutality described in the Old Testament conquest of Canaan is no longer used to excuse brutality either.

This is what I consider religious maturity or a religion growing up. I've often wondered when Islam will grow up. Their religion is eclectic enough in it's teachings and history to be able to get along well with every other religion. (Your more progressive thinking Muslims already do.) But instead you have ISIS using the worst acts of the founding figures of Islam to justify brutality. ISIS is basically the Spanish Inquisition in it's mentality in Islam. Will Islam ever grow up??

 
Old 02-09-2015, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
This is something that has been misused and abused by Christians forever ago. They took 3000 year old acts of violence in the Old Testament and use those to justify horrible atrocities. There are still small examples from time to time, but such justification of extreme brutality has become a huge taboo for modern Christianity. For example, Catholics aren't looking back at the Spanish Inquisition with pride as a model for future behavior. Instead, all the brutality of the Inquisitions are remembered by Catholics with shame and loathing. The brutality described in the Old Testament conquest of Canaan is no longer used to excuse brutality either.

This is what I consider religious maturity or a religion growing up. I've often wondered when Islam will grow up. Their religion is eclectic enough in it's teachings and history to be able to get along well with every other religion. (Your more progressive thinking Muslims already do.) But instead you have ISIS using the worst acts of the founding figures of Islam to justify brutality. ISIS is basically the Spanish Inquisition in it's mentality in Islam. Will Islam ever grow up??
As to will "Islam ever grow up?"
As a Muslim the question makes no sense. Islam is not a thing or organization, it is the personal act of submitting to God(swt) Very individual and requiring personal responsibility.

As to ISIS the majority of people they have been killing have been Muslims, Shi'ite and Sunni.
These actions are not just non-Islamic they are anti-Islam. It is like ISIS is out to destroy Islam and kill all Muslims.
In 4 Months it will be the month of Hajj and Muslims from around the world will be going to Mecca for the pilgrimage. I expect the largest attack on Islam, by ISIS will occur then.
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Old 02-09-2015, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,036 posts, read 4,198,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As to will "Islam ever grow up?"
As a Muslim the question makes no sense. Islam is not a thing or organization, it is the personal act of submitting to God(swt) Very individual and requiring personal responsibility.

As to ISIS the majority of people they have been killing have been Muslims, Shi'ite and Sunni.
These actions are not just non-Islamic they are anti-Islam. It is like ISIS is out to destroy Islam and kill all Muslims.
In 4 Months it will be the month of Hajj and Muslims from around the world will be going to Mecca for the pilgrimage. I expect the largest attack on Islam, by ISIS will occur then.
In their own opinion? No I don't think ISIS views themselves as the destroyer of Islam. It seems they're more like the Inquisition. They seem to see themselves as a purifying element within Islam. I'm sure that many have joined without a care for ideology, but the core of ISIS is clearly Muslim Fundamentalism: Forcibly returning Islam to it's original form, as defined by ISIS of course.

We are in complete agreement that they are a complete contradiction to the entire Muslim religion. They're a bunch of bullies and their cause attracts more bullies. But because Islam has no particular organization as you say, then who has the right to tell them that they're anti-Islamic? Undoubtedly, there are a lot of ISIS members who are just in it for the chance to brutalize, rape, pillage and lord over others. But there is a significant core of ISIS who absolutely view themselves as "submitting to the will of Allah." They honestly believe they are doing Allah's will. How do you tell a person like that they are failing to submit to Allah? In their own twisted viewpoint, they are doing it better than the rest of the world's Muslims.

I suppose I should have said, "Will the Muslim religion ever grow up?" As I have said before, it is Muslims like you that give me hope. It's unfortunate that organizations like Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qeda and ISIS grab all of the headlines and skew people's perception of all Muslims, but as long as such are around it will color the entire religion, just as Crusades and Inquisitions falsely colored perceptions of Christianity.
 
Old 02-09-2015, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Texas
115 posts, read 172,651 times
Reputation: 66
I don't think it can grow up. The problem is in the text. The idea that a book would be the FINAL word of god is just ridiculous. So it can't be altered or reformed in any way.

Then the whole, 'they're not muslim', 'I'm muslim your not', 'no I am' Who's the real muslim?, whos to say who is and whos not?.

Who has the authority to issue fatwas? They can't even agree on how to interpret the text. I think ISIS is the true Muslims for following the text most accurately.

And I read that a goat ate a bunch of pages so it's not even complete. And Mohammed said that these new verses are right and to ignore the old verses because they were from the devil.
So he admits that at least some of the quran was from the devil. I think the whole damn book is from the devil.

And to think that this illiterate, savage, criminal, pedophile, schizophrenic is considered by 1.5 bazillion people to be the ideal man. It's all too much.

He had a pretty good scam for back then, though. Making it up as he goes along.

MoMo's all "My wife just died and guess what, god just told me that I can have 4 wives. How convenient, Write that down"

I'm really surprised it lasted 1400 years. I don't see any good ever coming from it.

Also muslims will never figure it out on their own because, even though they know something is wrong, they will always look within the quran for the solution, but it's not there.

All they can do is deny that anything is wrong with Islam and use diversion tactics when confronted with rational discourse. Either by pointing at historical instances of violence (even non-religious violence) to trivialize modern islamic violence, or blaming outside forces for their actions (cartoons) or just saying 'they're not really Islamic' (Obamas Favorite)

But they are Islamic actually. They all are. They're all following the same book.

It's all really sad.
 
Old 02-09-2015, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
In their own opinion? No I don't think ISIS views themselves as the destroyer of Islam. It seems they're more like the Inquisition. They seem to see themselves as a purifying element within Islam. I'm sure that many have joined without a care for ideology, but the core of ISIS is clearly Muslim Fundamentalism: Forcibly returning Islam to it's original form, as defined by ISIS of course.

We are in complete agreement that they are a complete contradiction to the entire Muslim religion. They're a bunch of bullies and their cause attracts more bullies. But because Islam has no particular organization as you say, then who has the right to tell them that they're anti-Islamic? Undoubtedly, there are a lot of ISIS members who are just in it for the chance to brutalize, rape, pillage and lord over others. But there is a significant core of ISIS who absolutely view themselves as "submitting to the will of Allah." They honestly believe they are doing Allah's will. How do you tell a person like that they are failing to submit to Allah? In their own twisted viewpoint, they are doing it better than the rest of the world's Muslims.

I suppose I should have said, "Will the Muslim religion ever grow up?" As I have said before, it is Muslims like you that give me hope. It's unfortunate that organizations like Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qeda and ISIS grab all of the headlines and skew people's perception of all Muslims, but as long as such are around it will color the entire religion, just as Crusades and Inquisitions falsely colored perceptions of Christianity.
I agree some of the members of ISIS probably do believe they are truly submitting to Allaah(swt)

Any Muslim can only speak for himself. We have no way of knowing if a person that claims to be Muslim is or is not following Islam to the best of their ability. We can only point out acts we believe to be against Islam and explain why.

To me it is apparent that the members of ISIS are Hadith rejectors and do not follow any madhab. They are following self proclaimed human leaders.

The first step in a solution is education. But, there is much difficulty in trying to educate those who refuse to listen.

The solution then becomes force

Here there is a paradox, it seems the only means that will work is physical war, but that entails doing the very same things you are calling wrong..
I wish I did know a solution.
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Old 02-10-2015, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,036 posts, read 4,198,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I agree some of the members of ISIS probably do believe they are truly submitting to Allaah(swt)

Any Muslim can only speak for himself. We have no way of knowing if a person that claims to be Muslim is or is not following Islam to the best of their ability. We can only point out acts we believe to be against Islam and explain why.

To me it is apparent that the members of ISIS are Hadith rejectors and do not follow any madhab. They are following self proclaimed human leaders.

The first step in a solution is education. But, there is much difficulty in trying to educate those who refuse to listen.

The solution then becomes force

Here there is a paradox, it seems the only means that will work is physical war, but that entails doing the very same things you are calling wrong..
I wish I did know a solution.
In my opinion, it's a lot simpler than you're making it. ISIS, Al Qeda and all organizations like them are bullies. When confronted with a bully, you have two options:
A.) Submit to the bully's every whim.
B.) Fight back. Return violence for violence. Refuse to accept and refuse to give into them. Attack and overwhelm them. Do whatever it takes.

It cannot be denied that Christian hatred largely helped create all the evils of Nazism. Evils that were a complete contradiction to everything Christianity teaches. It was also Christian righteous indignation that helped destroyed Nazism. It was Christian revulsion that led to war crimes in connection with the Holocaust and other cases of mass-extermination by the Nazis. Christians united to take measure s to ensure that history did not repeat itself as well. The same ought to hold true for Islam. A corrupt branch has grown up in your midst. It seems to me that the will of Allah would be that true believers eradicate that corrupt branch. They don't need to be as brutal as the extremists. The Unites States wasn't rounding up German citizens and putting them in concentration camps, were they? In fact, the worst of the Nazis actually had their day in court. You can be civilized and still win. Most likely, you cannot truly win any other way.

It is the failure of the sane majority of Muslims to unitedly take action against extremist Muslims that made ISIS possible. Extremist groups have learned they have very little to fear from their fellow Muslims and they find great many sympathizers as well. When largely Christian nations like the United States intervene, we turn a bunch of lunatics into religious martyrs. This makes matters worse, not better. Because of the natural "us vs them" mentality that exists in every religion, only Muslims can successfully deal with the Muslim extremist problem.
 
Old 02-11-2015, 03:46 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forum Registration View Post
I don't think it can grow up. The problem is in the text. The idea that a book would be the FINAL word of god is just ridiculous. So it can't be altered or reformed in any way.

Then the whole, 'they're not muslim', 'I'm muslim your not', 'no I am' Who's the real muslim?, whos to say who is and whos not?.

Who has the authority to issue fatwas? They can't even agree on how to interpret the text. I think ISIS is the true Muslims for following the text most accurately.

And I read that a goat ate a bunch of pages so it's not even complete. And Mohammed said that these new verses are right and to ignore the old verses because they were from the devil.
So he admits that at least some of the quran was from the devil. I think the whole damn book is from the devil.

And to think that this illiterate, savage, criminal, pedophile, schizophrenic is considered by 1.5 bazillion people to be the ideal man. It's all too much.

He had a pretty good scam for back then, though. Making it up as he goes along.

MoMo's all "My wife just died and guess what, god just told me that I can have 4 wives. How convenient, Write that down"

I'm really surprised it lasted 1400 years. I don't see any good ever coming from it.

Also muslims will never figure it out on their own because, even though they know something is wrong, they will always look within the quran for the solution, but it's not there.

All they can do is deny that anything is wrong with Islam and use diversion tactics when confronted with rational discourse. Either by pointing at historical instances of violence (even non-religious violence) to trivialize modern islamic violence, or blaming outside forces for their actions (cartoons) or just saying 'they're not really Islamic' (Obamas Favorite)

But they are Islamic actually. They all are. They're all following the same book.

It's all really sad.
Interesting post.
But I am only going to address the very last part which I think is the key point of the Post

Quote:
But they are Islamic actually. They all are. They're all following the same book.

It's all really sad.
There are quite a few groups that consider Muhammad(saaws) to be a Prophet and the Qur'an to be the word of God(swt)
They can be divided into 2 major groups
1.Those that the world calls Muslim
Sunni
Shi'ite
Ismaili
Salafi
Wahabbi
ISIS
Sufi
Ahmadyyah
NOI

2, Those the world usually does not call Muslim
Baha'i
Druze
Yazidi

And a third group that consists basically of numerous Evangelical Christians I guess best described as confused

Their main goal seems to be to develop Muslims that worship Jesus(a.s.)

Chrislam--http://chrislam.org/

Messianic Muslims--http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2000...-Identity.aspx

Muslims for Jesus--http://jesusformuslims.org/

Jews for Allah--http://jews-for-allah.org/

The whole point being these all have the Qur'an as a common thread. Yet the majority are not associated with terrorism
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 02-11-2015 at 04:14 AM..
 
Old 02-11-2015, 04:08 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Islam does not have a monopoly on violence

Craig Stephen Hicks arrested after 3 Muslim students shot dead in Chapel Hill shooting | Daily Mail Online



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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 02-11-2015 at 05:19 AM..
 
Old 02-11-2015, 06:01 AM
 
Location: Australia
106 posts, read 71,920 times
Reputation: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Because of this.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ue-and-devalue

Essentially, Islam came about from a displaced dude who was monotheistic in a polytheistic culture (pre-Islam, that region had a spirit-based religion involving stuff like djinns, and the central figure was its moon god). He didn't really try to go with the flow like the Taoists, or engage peacefully like Christians and other groups (usually). He decided, I want my way to be what runs in this area, these jerks are oppressing me, time to fight.

Okay, back to the psych lesson, you are what you value and devalue. At their core, a person who willingly joins Islam is a person who hates themselves, and has an us-vs-them mentality. Here's the truth. There is no us, there is no them. There is you, and how you treat people outside yourself. A person who hates themselves, treats others poorly. A religion that forces submission on its followers, forces submission on the rest of the world.

Also, the word of the Qu'ran is infallible. Remember papal infallibility? Yeah, things like that what you can't debate or question, pretty much keep religions in the stone age. Christianity has become modern because it has had philosophers debate it, but at around the time of Islam and early Christianity, people were hung from crosses, stoned to death, etc. If you don't culturally advance from that point, you're kinda backwards.
Some truth and a few rash generalisations there.
My take on the violence we see in Islam today has many sources - here are a few off the top of my head:-
1: The Koran, just like the Old Testament, has some very nasty passages. Instance Sura 3: V 7-10.
2: Most of the homeland of Islam has been treated by the Christian west in an abominable manner all the way back to the crusades.
3: The advances women have made towards equality in the west of late gets up the noses of males raised in the misogynist culture of the middle east inducing a raging desire to impose strict sharia law on women to 'put them back in their place". The only way strict sharia law can be spread in today's world is by violent revolution, a revolution thought to need acceleration before muslims living in the west, especially women, get fancy ideas about equality, democracy etc.
 
Old 02-11-2015, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,036 posts, read 4,198,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Too true that the mainstream media has been very biased in their reporting. And it cuts both ways of course. There are many other cases where a bunch of jerks are trying to stop Religion X from building a place of worship somewhere or another. There are many other cases of arson, vandalism and willful destruction of places of worship of unpopular Christian religions.
Neighborhood floats balloons to protest Mormon temple | azfamily.com Phoenix
Westlake Jehovah's Witness worship hall vandalized (video) | cleveland.com
Kingdom Hall reopens after devastating arson attacks - CBS News 8 - San Diego, CA News Station - KFMB Channel 8
Naked arsonist claiming to be Jesus Christ sets church on fire - CBS46 News
http://6abc.com/news/3-church-fires-...-arson/419522/
Arson tried to burn down Renton church building | www.kirotv.com

The problem with your story and all of those linked? They're not MSM news-worthy because they do not fit into the narrow category of "East vs West" or "Muslim vs Christian."

From your link:
Quote:
On a Facebook page in his name, Hicks shared a number of anti-religion posts, describing himself as a supporter of 'Atheists for Equality'. A banner about 'anti-theism' is prominent on his page ... Most of the pictures he has posted in recent months criticize a number of religions, including Christianity.
So as a militant atheist, Hicks and folks like him are just as likely to kill Christians, Hindus and Buddhists. The fight that the mainstream media wants to report is Christians killing Muslims and Muslims killing Christians. It's almost as though they want to intentionally escalate violence between the two religions. And heaven forbid that they report on violent murderous atheists.
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