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Old 08-23-2015, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Like many ayyat surah 4:142 does not translate very well"

I would think that the being who CREATED THE UNIVERSE would do a better job of writing a book that is supposed to be written for mankind for all time. Why doesn't he download a properly translated version to our iphones? I mean really, eternal torture rests on our submission to something we can't translate!

Anyways, here are the translations on the Noble Quran site which is where hundreds of Muslims have sent me to learn the correct translations from the Quran. If I do not use that site I am accused of using false translations.

Sahih International
Indeed, the hypocrites [think to] deceive Allah , but He is deceiving them. And when they stand for prayer, they stand lazily, showing [themselves to] the people and not remembering Allah except a little,
Muhsin Khan
Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allah, but it is He Who deceives them. And when they stand up for As-Salat (the prayer), they stand with laziness and to be seen of men, and they do not remember Allah but little.
Pickthall
Lo! the hypocrites seek to beguile Allah, but it is He Who beguileth them. When they stand up to worship they perform it languidly and to be seen of men, and are mindful of Allah but little;
Yusuf Ali
The Hypocrites - they think they are over-reaching Allah, but He will over-reach (to get the better of, especially by deceit or trickery; outwit them: When they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen of men, but little do they hold Allah in remembrance;
Shakir
Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah, and He shall requite (return, to retaliate on) their deceit to them, and when they stand up to prayer they stand up sluggishly; they do it only to be seen of men and do not remember Allah save a little.
Dr. Ghali
Surely the hypocrites try to deceive Allah, and He is deceiving them; and when they rise up for prayer, they rise up lazily, showing off to (other) men, and they do not remember Allah except a little.

I use the Noble Quran website now, which has plenty of trusted translations. If these translations are all wrong, which is what you are claiming in this case, then the very idea that the 'god' who demands submission or endless torture at his hands is allowing his book to be wrongly translated and punishing on the basis of fake translation is just more evil piled on evil.

"The idea expressed is the Hypocrites will plot but Allaah(swt) is greater than their plots."

No, the idea expressed is that if humans plot to deceive allah, then allah, the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, will make a better plot of deception against them.

I just reread the surrounding verses....such hate! Such threats!
It is only a threat to Hypocrites. they are being told that just going through the action of Islam, without the intent of being Muslim, will not get them into heaven.

No deceit or deception. Just a simple fact that the words Aaoona and AAuhuma have not English counter part. It made sense to the people of Muhammad(swt)'s era. Deceit is not the translation, it is an interpretation that hopefully English speaking readers can understand.

In French it is interpreted as:

[SIZE=2]Les hypocrites cherchent à tromper Allah, mais Allah retourne leur tromperie (contre eux-mêmes). Et lorsqu'ils se lèvent pour la Salat, ils se lèvent avec paresse et par ostentation envers les gens. A peine invoquent-ils Allah. - 4:142 [SIZE=1](French)[/SIZE][/SIZE]

the word tromper translates to English as Fool. The intent is not to say Allaah(swt) uses deceit, it is giving the message that whatever a person does, Allaah(swt) can do something better.

[SIZE=2]Allah, mais Allah retourne leur tromperie (contre eux-mêmes) = [/SIZE]Allah, but He Who deceives ( against themselves)

In other words Allaah(swt) turns their deceit back to themselves. Their deceit ends up only deceiving the deceivers



There is much in the Qur'an that many of do not understand as they do not relate to us.

The Qur'an is perfect in that it conveys the message to all people that message being:

"There is only One God(swt) and only He is to be worshiped" The rest of the Qur'an gives us the reasons why we should perform Islam. The Qur'an gives us the reasons to persom Islam, it does not tell us how.





.
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Old 08-23-2015, 08:53 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
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There is much in the Qur'an that many of do not understand as they do not relate to us. "

How do you know it doesn't relate to you if you can't understand it?

"Deceit is not the translation, it is an interpretation that hopefully English speaking readers can understand."

We understand it just fine. It fits in with other verses in the Quran where allah threatens everlasting torturous punishment.
Deceit is nothing compared to most of allah's plans for slaughter and torture:
“fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

Again, the question remains: Why in the world would a CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE create people so he can watch his prophet rape and torture and enslave and slaughter them and then this god tortures then for eternity? All he had to do is make us all Muslim (piece of cake for him) or give proof that he exists (piece of cake), but no. And why pick a prophet that rapes and slaughters and owns slaves and makes his 9 year old sex toy scrape gobs of sperm off his clothes, and sells women and is just plain evil.

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to wash the semen off the clothes of the Prophet and even then I used to notice one or more spots on them.
Sahih Bukhari 1:4:233

Abdullah b. Shihab al-Khaulani reported: I stayed in the house of 'A'isha and had a wet dream (and perceived its effect on my garment), so (in the morning) I dipped both (the clothes) in water. This (act of mine) was watched by a maid-servant of A'isha and she informed her. She (Hadrat A'isha) sent me a message: What prompted you to act like this with your clothes? He (the narrator) said: I told that I saw in a dream what a sleeper sees. She said: Did you find (any mark of the fluid) on your clothes? I said: No. She said: Had you found anything you should have washed it. In case I found that (semen) on the garment of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) dried up, I scraped it off with my nails.
Sahih Muslim 2:572, See Also Sahih Muslim 2:566, Sahih Muslim 2:567, Sahih Muslim 2:568, Sahih Muslim 2:569, Sahih Muslim 2:570, Sahih Muslim 2:571

The Quran conveys the message to all people that message being:

"There is an insecure god that has some massively pathological need to be worshiped by every human or that god will have his prophet slaughter you disbelievers and rape your wives and after you die you will be subjected to horrible painful punishment for all eternity, So there. "

In fact, a man named Muhammed wrote the Quran so he could pretend to be a prophet and do every evil under the sun and gain power and riches while he was carrying out his evil.
 
Old 08-23-2015, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
There is much in the Qur'an that many of do not understand as they do not relate to us. "

How do you know it doesn't relate to you if you can't understand it?

"Deceit is not the translation, it is an interpretation that hopefully English speaking readers can understand."

We understand it just fine. It fits in with other verses in the Quran where allah threatens everlasting torturous punishment.
Deceit is nothing compared to most of allah's plans for slaughter and torture:
“fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

Again, the question remains: Why in the world would a CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE create people so he can watch his prophet rape and torture and enslave and slaughter them and then this god tortures then for eternity? All he had to do is make us all Muslim (piece of cake for him) or give proof that he exists (piece of cake), but no. And why pick a prophet that rapes and slaughters and owns slaves and makes his 9 year old sex toy scrape gobs of sperm off his clothes, and sells women and is just plain evil.

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to wash the semen off the clothes of the Prophet and even then I used to notice one or more spots on them.
Sahih Bukhari 1:4:233

Abdullah b. Shihab al-Khaulani reported: I stayed in the house of 'A'isha and had a wet dream (and perceived its effect on my garment), so (in the morning) I dipped both (the clothes) in water. This (act of mine) was watched by a maid-servant of A'isha and she informed her. She (Hadrat A'isha) sent me a message: What prompted you to act like this with your clothes? He (the narrator) said: I told that I saw in a dream what a sleeper sees. She said: Did you find (any mark of the fluid) on your clothes? I said: No. She said: Had you found anything you should have washed it. In case I found that (semen) on the garment of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) dried up, I scraped it off with my nails.
Sahih Muslim 2:572, See Also Sahih Muslim 2:566, Sahih Muslim 2:567, Sahih Muslim 2:568, Sahih Muslim 2:569, Sahih Muslim 2:570, Sahih Muslim 2:571

The Quran conveys the message to all people that message being:

"There is an insecure god that has some massively pathological need to be worshiped by every human or that god will have his prophet slaughter you disbelievers and rape your wives and after you die you will be subjected to horrible painful punishment for all eternity, So there. "

In fact, a man named Muhammed wrote the Quran so he could pretend to be a prophet and do every evil under the sun and gain power and riches while he was carrying out his evil.
As you are making the claim, what proof can you offer that Muhammad(saws) wrote the Qur'an?
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Old 08-23-2015, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Washington state
5,432 posts, read 2,759,563 times
Reputation: 16330
It's not the religions themselves that are violent. But maybe you have to ask, what is it these religions are selling that make potentially violent people want to buy from them? What is it in these religions that attract the kind of people they do?

I know a lot of people don't like to think about things like morality, they like to have all their ducks laid out in a row. They want to be told what to do and how to think, rather than trying to figure that out for themselves. They want all their questions to be answered and they want someone or something to blame when things go wrong. They want to choose something where they can confess and be forgiven. More than anything else, they want to be surrounded by the same kind of people so they can assure themselves and each other that what they believe in is right.

People who seek these things are more apt to be the extremists in whatever religion they find, because eventually their need to be right in what they believe in compels them to destroy anything at all that may show they could be wrong about some things. Denial can be incredibly strong sometimes, beyond all common sense.
 
Old 08-23-2015, 09:15 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
Reputation: 435
"There is much in the Qur'an that many of do not understand as they do not relate to us. "

How do you know it doesn't relate to you if you can't understand it?

"As you are making the claim, what proof can you offer that Muhammad(saws) wrote the Qur'an?"

Many historical documents and rationality.

Again, the question remains: Why in the world would a CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE create people so he can watch his prophet rape and torture and enslave and slaughter them and then this god tortures then for eternity? All he had to do is make us all Muslim (piece of cake for him) or give proof that he exists (piece of cake), but no. And why pick a prophet that rapes and slaughters and owns slaves and makes his 9 year old sex toy scrape gobs of sperm off his clothes, and sells women and is just plain evil.

I would think that the being who CREATED THE UNIVERSE would do a better job of writing a book that is supposed to be written for mankind for all time. Why doesn't he download a properly translated version to our iphones? I mean really, eternal torture rests on our submission to something we can't translate!
 
Old 08-23-2015, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
It's not the religions themselves that are violent. But maybe you have to ask, what is it these religions are selling that make potentially violent people want to buy from them? What is it in these religions that attract the kind of people they do?

I know a lot of people don't like to think about things like morality, they like to have all their ducks laid out in a row. They want to be told what to do and how to think, rather than trying to figure that out for themselves. They want all their questions to be answered and they want someone or something to blame when things go wrong. They want to choose something where they can confess and be forgiven. More than anything else, they want to be surrounded by the same kind of people so they can assure themselves and each other that what they believe in is right.

People who seek these things are more apt to be the extremists in whatever religion they find, because eventually their need to be right in what they believe in compels them to destroy anything at all that may show they could be wrong about some things. Denial can be incredibly strong sometimes, beyond all common sense.
If a person lives in accordance with any one of the 4 Madhabs of Islam it would be impossible for them to be aggressors.

It is the madhabs that contain the guidelines for performing Islam.


In many ways Islam is Laid out similar to Judaism and Christianity.

The Qur'an being What came First, the Ahadith being the Gospels and the Madhabs being Doctrine.

To understand Islam, one needs to understand the Madhabs. I have studied the 4 Madhabs and choose to live by the Hanafi to the best of my ability. The Hanafi madhab has a great deal of flexibility and is quite progressive and adaptability to many cultures and societies, I find it to be the best choice for Muslims that live in Western Nations. It is flexible enough to differ in accordance with National culture.

Here is a good introduction to the Hanafi:




Quote:
FEATURES OF AL-MADH'HAB AL-HANAFI
The Al-Hanafi School of Thought tends to put more emphasis on Qiyas (Analogy) andRaa'y (personal opinion) than an emphasis on Hadith choices, and the deductions therefrom. It does not acknowledge the Imamah of Ahlul Bayt. The Hanafi School of Thought beganits popularity in the last quarter of the second century Hijrah
The Hanafi School : Origin, Development And Features | anas pa - Academia.edu
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Old 08-23-2015, 09:27 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As you are making the claim, what proof can you offer that Muhammad(saws) wrote the Qur'an?
Proof from the following inference:

1. The Quran is supposedly initiated from God via Gabriel then Muhammad.
2. Since there is no proof God and Angels exist [an impossibility],
3. Then we are left with Muhammad.
4. Therefore the Quran is from Muhammad thoughts.

The other alternative is the Quran is compiled from various writings on the subject to control a vast empire. Once the leader has the people under the mercy of a so-called God, then control is so easy.
Muhammad was merely some well-known warlord during that time and conveniently used to fit in the puzzle as the necessary messenger.
 
Old 08-23-2015, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Proof from the following inference:

1. The Quran is supposedly initiated from God via Gabriel then Muhammad.
2. Since there is no proof God and Angels exist [an impossibility],
3. Then we are left with Muhammad.
4. Therefore the Quran is from Muhammad thoughts.

The other alternative is the Quran is compiled from various writings on the subject to control a vast empire. Once the leader has the people under the mercy of a so-called God, then control is so easy.
Muhammad was merely some well-known warlord during that time and conveniently used to fit in the puzzle as the necessary messenger.
Addressing the last sentence.

At the time there was no Arab empire. The Arabian peninsula was mostly uninhabited except for the occasional Bedouin Nomads that traveled from India to Maghreb (The Extreme West (Morocco)

Even during the lifetime of Muhammad(saws) there was no significant empire except the Arab tribes united as a single people. If there was anything resembling a kingdom it was Hijaz the current cities of Mecca and Medina.

There was no VAST Empire in Muhammad(saws) Lifetime. He died owning nothing except the clothes he wore and never gained wealth from Islam.



605: Birth of Fatimah the daughter of Muhammad. She was the wife of Ali ibn Abu Talib and all of Muhammad's descendants are through her.
605: Muhammad helps rebuild the Ka'ba.[1]
610: The first announced revelation of the Qur'an in the cave at Hira. He is given his first revelation from the Angel Gabriel in the cave. Khadija is the first to believe Islam.[2]
613: Declaration at Mount Safa inviting the general public to Islam.
614: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims migrates to Abyssinia
615: Acceptance of Islam by Umar and Hamza
616: Second migration to Abyssinia.
617: Boycott of the Hashemites and Muhammad by the Quraish.
619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Khadija, Year of Sorrow.
620: Visit to Taif. "Ascension to the heavens".
622: Hijra—migration to Medina. First year of Islamic calendar.
622: Constitution of Medina. Establishment of the first Islamic state.
624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Medina. The direction of prayer is converted from Jerusalem to Mecca.[3]
625: Battle of Uhud. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Medina.
625: Birth of Hasan ibn Ali, son of Ali and Fatimah and 2nd Shia imams.
626: Birth of Husayn ibn Ali, son of Ali and Fatimah and 3ed Shia imams.
627: Battle of the Trench. Invasion of Banu Qurayza.
628: Treaty of Hudaybiyyah. Battle of Khaybar. Muhammad sends letters to various heads of states.
629: Muhammad pilgrimage to Mecca. Battle of Mu'ta.
630: Conquest of Mecca. Battle of Hunayn. Battle of Autas. Siege of Ta'if.
631: Expedition to Tabouk, Ghassanids.
631 or 632, tribe of Thaqif adopts Islam.
632: Farewell pilgrimage at Mecca.
632: Death of Muhammad. Death of Fatimah, his daughter. Abu Bakr is chosen by consensus of the majority of the prophet's companions as caliph. Battles of Zu Qissa. Battles of Zu Abraq. Battle of Buzakha. Battle of Zafar. Battle of Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Mosailima.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...Muslim_history

Basically in Muhammad(saws) lifetime he never assumed the role of an emporer, King or political ruler. He made no personal gains and owned no property. He did not even own a house. His wives each had their own house and healternated between which one's he would stay in.

to give some idea of Muhammad(saws) I will quote from a non-Muslim source:

Quote:
Under Muhammad's authority, Meccans of wealth were obliged to donate to the well-being of Mecca's poor. People saw Muhammad's strength as the power of his god, and they saw the other gods as having become powerless – another common way of looking at the world and more of military success deciding religious devotions. There were many conversions to Islam. And with Mecca under Muhammad's rule, the holy shrine there, the Kaaba, was turned into a place of Islamic worship.
Quote:
Muhammad clung to the acceptance of slavery, to his belief in the coming of Armageddon and to polygamy, and there were other influences. The Arab tradition was not that of dynasties by conquering monarchs. Nor was there a tradition of institutionalized democracy. In Arabia there were none of the institutions that made a state as opposed to kinship societies. Arab politics had been tribal. Tribes were brotherhoods, and that is how Muhammad saw Islam, as a brotherhood, and brotherhoods were not supposed to need formal political mechanisms for maintaining authority.
Quote:
Neither an ascetic nor a celibate, Muhammad is said to have lived his last two years without harsh words about life. He continued the custom of polygamy – a practice that had helped compensate for the high death rate among Arabs and for a diminished ability to conceive because of Arabia's hot climate. But perhaps as a move against the rich, he limited the number of wives a man could have at any one time to four, except for himself, allowing himself thirteen.
Islam, Power and Empire, 600-667 CE

Basically Muhammad(saws) lived a life of poverty with no personal wealth.
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Old 08-23-2015, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Addressing the last sentence.

At the time there was no Arab empire. The Arabian peninsula was mostly uninhabited except for the occasional Bedouin Nomads that traveled from India to Maghreb (The Extreme West (Morocco)

Even during the lifetime of Muhammad(saws) there was no significant empire except the Arab tribes united as a single people. If there was anything resembling a kingdom it was Hijaz the current cities of Mecca and Medina.

There was no VAST Empire in Muhammad(saws) Lifetime. He died owning nothing except the clothes he wore and never gained wealth from Islam.


Basically in Muhammad(saws) lifetime he never assumed the role of an emporer, King or political ruler. He made no personal gains and owned no property. He did not even own a house. His wives each had their own house and healternated between which one's he would stay in.

to give some idea of Muhammad(saws) I will quote from a non-Muslim source:

Islam, Power and Empire, 600-667 CE

Basically Muhammad(saws) lived a life of poverty with no personal wealth.
The alternative view was with reference to the current Quran that was developed [recompile and revised] over few hundred years after the death of Muhammad.

Note this
A 'Perfect' Quran
 
Old 08-23-2015, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The alternative view was with reference to the current Quran that was developed [recompile and revised] over few hundred years after the death of Muhammad.

Note this
A 'Perfect' Quran
The Qur'an was preserved through memorization of the Qur'an by the Hafiz, not by the Written Qur'an.

Arabic was just begining as a written language at the time the Qur'an was revealed. until about 600 years after the revelation the written Qur'an was a mnemonic to memorization not as a means of transmission or preservation. Until the development of pronunciation marks and vowels Arabic could not be read unless a person had a good bit already memorized. words were written with 3 consonants and unless a person had a good idea as to what the word was, they would not be able to read it. The Uthman Qur'an simply limited the letters to one style. Prior to Uthman there were at least 7 different alphabets in use.

The content of the Uthman Qur'an was and continues to be verified by the Hafiz. Although we are getting lazy and less people study to become Hafiz recitation by the Hafiz is still the method of Qur'an preservation, not the Written Qur'an. All Hafiz world wide recite the same Qur'an and if a written version changed even a single letter a Hafiz would catch it. What is interesting is the Chinese Muslim had virtually no contact with other Muslims since the Death of Muhammad(saws) they recite the very same Qur'an all other Muslims recite.

Writing styles and alphabets change, but the recitation remains unchanged. Up until after the invention of the printing press very few Qur'ans were written but every family had at least one family member that was Hafiz and most Boys did learn to recite the Qur'an by rote memory before the age of 10. (so did many girls, but it was not required for girls to)

The Written Qur'an is secondary to the recitation by a Hafiz.

Also if a person did attempt to "revise" the Qur'an they would not be able to do so in Qur'anic Arabic. The tajweed would not continue with the tone of the Surah the revision takes place it, it would stick out like a sore thumb.

It would be like adding a stanza from "Yankee doodle dandy"" to "The Star Spangled banner" Uthman could not make a content change without Thousands of Hafiz at the time noticing it.
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