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Old 08-24-2015, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Qur'an was preserved through memorization of the Qur'an by the Hafiz, not by the Written Qur'an.
One counter to the above is during Muhammad's time many of those who memorized parts of the revelations were killed in the earlier wars.
By the time Umar was worried enough to begin some compilation it was already too late to get the Original full Quran that was supposed to be from Allah in heaven.

I don't think there are any 'Hafiz' [one who memorization the full Quran] during Muhammad time. No one person would have accessed to the FULL range of recitations.

Muhammad recited the revelations to different people over 23 years.

Logic:
1. Let say the Original Full Quran in Allah hand was 100%
2. Muhammad recited to various people with different and partial %.
3. Some of those who were given the recitations and memorize it were killed in wars.
4. Therefore the Quran we have today cannot be the 100% Full Original Quran.
5. It is just physically and empirically impossible to have the 100% Full Original Quran!

The point of the above logic, there was no FULL Original Quran in the first place because God as real is an impossibility.

From the logic above, it is most likely the Quran we have today was compiled and developed [edited to make some sense] over time by humans.

 
Old 08-24-2015, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
One counter to the above is during Muhammad's time many of those who memorized parts of the revelations were killed in the earlier wars.
By the time Umar was worried enough to begin some compilation it was already too late to get the Original full Quran that was supposed to be from Allah in heaven.

I don't think there are any 'Hafiz' [one who memorization the full Quran] during Muhammad time. No one person would have accessed to the FULL range of recitations.

Muhammad recited the revelations to different people over 23 years.

Logic:
1. Let say the Original Full Quran in Allah hand was 100%
2. Muhammad recited to various people with different and partial %.
3. Some of those who were given the recitations and memorize it were killed in wars.
4. Therefore the Quran we have today cannot be the 100% Full Original Quran.
5. It is just physically and empirically impossible to have the 100% Full Original Quran!

The point of the above logic, there was no FULL Original Quran in the first place because God as real is an impossibility.

From the logic above, it is most likely the Quran we have today was compiled and developed [edited to make some sense] over time by humans.
As you already mentioned there were at least 7 written compilations of the Qur'an by the time of Uthman. As only a Hafiz would have been capable of reading them--remember at the time written Arabic was a Memory tool, not a means of transmission.

Without the Hafiz the Qur'an would be in many versions by now. However the Hafiz world wide recite the very same thing. By the time of Uthman, Islam had already spread quite far from Arabia. The majority of Muslims would have never seen the Uthman Qur'an especially since there was no more then 7 ever written. Yet, the Hafiz world wide be they from Arabia, India, China, Malaysia, Morocco all recite the same Qur'an

Using one of your favorite sites here is an indication of how the early written Qur'ans could be read very different from each other.

Quote:
The Addition of Diacritical marks

As we stated earlier, the Qur'an was written without diacritical marks. At the time of Muhammad, Arabic orthography was yet to develop into what we have known for centuries. There was no distinction between letters of the Arabic alphabets of similar shape and there were no vowel marks. There were no dots above or below the letters either. For the interpretors who added diacritical marks, to read the Qur'an as it was originally written, would lead the reader to interpret and choose for themselves from the many possible meanings available in the Arabic without diacritical marks.

In order for non-Arabic speakers to understand what is being discussed here, we will look at several Arabic words and how the use of diacritical marks affect their meanings:

The word for “girl” is “bent”. The word is composed of three letters which are “Ba”, “n” or noon”, and “Ta”. When these three letters are connected to each other without diacritical marks they will appear identical. They will look like three adjacent crescents facing upwards. The difference between them is nothing. Only the diacritical marks (and the dots) can differentiate between them. Here is how it works:

If you put one point below any one of them, it's "Ba"
If you put two points below any one of them, it's "ya"
If you put one point above any one of them, it's "non"
If you put two points above any one of them, it's "Ta"
If you put three points above any one of them, it's "Tha"

Therefore, there are a multitude of possible alternatives that could arise from the arrangements of diacritical marks on each of the letters.

Furthermore, if you put one mark below the first, two points below the second, and two above the third, the word "girl" will become “Bayt” which translates as “home” in English.

If you put two points below the first, one below the second, and two above the third, it's "yabet" which translates as "he makes a decision" in English.

If you put one point above the first, one below the second and two above the third, it's "nabat" which translates as "'grew” (for something planted) in English.

If you put one point below the first, two below the second and one above the third, it's "Bayn" which translates as "between" in English.

If you put one point below the first, three points above the second and two points above the third, it's "Bathat" which translates as "she broadcast" in English.

If you put two points below the first, one below the second, and three above the third, it's "yaboth" which translates as "he broadcasts" in English.

Therefore even after adding diacritical points above and below the Arabic letters, the meaning of the word will not be explicit with certainty except after adding the vocalization marks. Both the diacritical points and the vocalization marks were not used in the ancient Arabic writings during the time of Muhammad. Therefore, there would have been a wide range of problems and an enormous task for the interpretors to add diacritical points and vocalization marks on every letter in the Qur'an. Therefore there was a lot of opportunity to make mistakes that would have made it impossible to ensure the original word meanings of the Qur'an were unchanged.

Diacritical Marks of the Qur'an - WikiIslam
As every Hafiz recites the same it should be obvious that the preservation of the Qur'an was through the Hafiz and not through the written Qur'an. Although in today's world the written Qur'an has become relied upon for teaching.

For many centuries the Majority of Muslims never saw a written Qur'an and never had access to one to Dwell upon the "violent Verses" The Qur'an had very little influence on "violent behavior' as most Muslims until mass printing developed, never saw a written Qur'an.

Printed Qur'ans did not appear until the 10th Century and did not becomse mass produced until the invention of movable type in the 16th Century.

Quote:
Qur'āns were first printed from carved wooden blocks, one block per page. There are existing specimen of pages and blocks dating from the tenth century. Mass-produced less expensive versions of the Qur'an were later produced by lithography, a technique for printing illustrations. Qur'ans so printed could reproduce the fine calligraphy of hand-made versions.

The oldest surviving Qur'ān for which movable type was used was printed in Venice in 1537/1538. It seems to have been prepared for sale in the Ottoman Empire. Catherine the Great of Russia sponsored a printing of the Qur'ān in 1787. This was followed by editions from Kazan (1828), Persia (1833) and Istanbul (1877).[18]

Quran (Koran) - New World Encyclopedia
The point being that until the 1800s or later most Muslims did not own a Qur'an nor had ever read one. Your concept of it being the Source of violence does not seem to be a valid concept.
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Old 08-26-2015, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Eastern Oregon.
360 posts, read 183,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I read a Juz (1/30 of the Quran) daily In the past 10 years I have read the Qur'an (in Arabic) at least 120 times. In the 65 years prior (When I had not accepted Islam I probably read it over 100 times with the goal of debating agaionst it.

I still do not find it to promote violence and find it to be exceptionally peaceful.
Read these verses from the Qur'an. If you notice, they promote violence against Christians and Jews.

Sura 9, verse 5, reads: "fight and slay unbelievers wherever ye find them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war. But if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them . . . ."

Sura 9, verse 29, reads: "fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, even if they are of the 40 people of the book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Sura 5, verse 51 reads: "Oh ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends and protectors; they are but friends of protectors of each other. And he amongst you that turns to them for friendship is of them. Verily Allah guideth not the unjust."

Sura 3, verse 28, introduces the doctrine of taqiyya, which holds that Muslims should not be friends with the infidel except as deception, always with the end goal of converting, subduing, or destroying them.

Sura 5, verse 64. And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are spread out, He expends as He pleases; and what has been revealed to you from your Lord will certainly make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the day of resurrection; whenever they kindle a fire for war Allah puts it out, and they strive to make mischief in the land; and Allah does not love the mischief-makers.

Now, do you still believe it is a peace loving holy book?

Last edited by earl012; 08-26-2015 at 04:31 PM..
 
Old 08-26-2015, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earl012 View Post
Read these verses from the Qur'an. If you notice, they promote violence against Christians and Jews.

Sura 9, verse 5, reads: "fight and slay unbelievers wherever ye find them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war. But if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them . . . ."

Sura 9, verse 29, reads: "fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, even if they are of the 40 people of the book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Sura 5, verse 51 reads: "Oh ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends and protectors; they are but friends of protectors of each other. And he amongst you that turns to them for friendship is of them. Verily Allah guideth not the unjust."

Sura 3, verse 28, introduces the doctrine of taqiyya, which holds that Muslims should not be friends with the infidel except as deception, always with the end goal of converting, subduing, or destroying them.

Sura 5, verse 64. And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are spread out, He expends as He pleases; and what has been revealed to you from your Lord will certainly make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the day of resurrection; whenever they kindle a fire for war Allah puts it out, and they strive to make mischief in the land; and Allah does not love the mischief-makers.

Now, do you still believe it is a peace loving holy book?
Common errors many people make by not reading enough of the discourse. An Ayyat is not a stand alone sentence, it is part of a story or discourse.

Just Using 9:29 as an example

First you need to understand who was being addressed and what/who was being spoken of.

It does help to read a Tafsir along with the Qur'an. The Qur'an is a message not a teach manual. To learn how to follow Islam one needs to go beyong the Qur'an.

Getting back to surah 9

Quote:
we are speking about a specific people at a specific time and place and in particular regarding a very specific event. In other words, IT IS A LESSON OF WHAT HAD OCCURED AND WHY NOT A COMMANDMENT TO BE FOLLOWED AD-PERPETUUM



Discourses and Periods of Revelation

This Surah comprises three discourses:-

The first discourse (vv. 1-37), was revealed in Zil-Qa'adah A. H. 9 or thereabout. As the importance of the subject of the discourse required its declaration on the occasion of Haj the Holy Prophet despatched Hadrat Ali to follow Hadrat Abu Bakr, who had already left for Makkah as leader of the Pilgrims to the Ka'abah. He instructed Hadrat Ali to deliver the discourse before the representatives of the different clans of Arabia so as to inform them of the new policy towards the mushriks.

Historical Background

Now let us consider the historical background of the Surah. The series of events that have been discussed in this Surah took place after the Peace Treaty of Hudaibiyah. By that time, one-third of Arabia had come under the sway of Islam which had established itself as a powerful, well organized and civilized Islamic State. This Treaty afforded further opportunities to Islam to spread its influence in the comparatively peaceful atmosphere created by it. After this Treaty, two events took place, which led to very important results:

In this portion the Muslims have been urged to fight in the Way of Allah with the mushrik Arabs, the Jews and the Christians, who were duly warned of the consequences of their mischievous and inimical behaviour. 13 - 37

This is the conclusion: "Follow the Messenger who is gentle and compassionate and your greatest well-wisher, and trust in Allah, the Lord of the Universe". 128 - 129
Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #9
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Old 08-26-2015, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Washington state
5,431 posts, read 2,756,099 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If a person lives in accordance with any one of the 4 Madhabs of Islam it would be impossible for them to be aggressors.

It is the madhabs that contain the guidelines for performing Islam.


In many ways Islam is Laid out similar to Judaism and Christianity.

The Qur'an being What came First, the Ahadith being the Gospels and the Madhabs being Doctrine.

To understand Islam, one needs to understand the Madhabs. I have studied the 4 Madhabs and choose to live by the Hanafi to the best of my ability. The Hanafi madhab has a great deal of flexibility and is quite progressive and adaptability to many cultures and societies, I find it to be the best choice for Muslims that live in Western Nations. It is flexible enough to differ in accordance with National culture.

Here is a good introduction to the Hanafi:

The Hanafi School : Origin, Development And Features | anas pa - Academia.edu

I believe you. I don't have a quarrel with Christianity, or Islam, or any other religion. The problem I have is with the followers of any religion who use it to justify what they want. Those people aren't guided by their religion like they should be. They're taking the religion and twisting it around to fit their ideas and their beliefs.

But I still question why religion, in general (meaning no specific one), is so attractive to the type of person who wants to use it for his own ends. How many times have we seen people who come into power and then get corrupted by it, people who started with good intentions and high ideals. But once they established a means to put forth those good intentions, they decide to discard them. What I am asking then, is even though any religion's intentions are good, does the religion then corrupt the people who adopt it, so that those good intentions fall by the wayside?

The answer: probably not as often as it seems, but way more than it should. I just want to know why.
 
Old 08-27-2015, 06:32 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
I believe you. I don't have a quarrel with Christianity, or Islam, or any other religion. The problem I have is with the followers of any religion who use it to justify what they want. Those people aren't guided by their religion like they should be. They're taking the religion and twisting it around to fit their ideas and their beliefs.

But I still question why religion, in general (meaning no specific one), is so attractive to the type of person who wants to use it for his own ends. How many times have we seen people who come into power and then get corrupted by it, people who started with good intentions and high ideals. But once they established a means to put forth those good intentions, they decide to discard them. What I am asking then, is even though any religion's intentions are good, does the religion then corrupt the people who adopt it, so that those good intentions fall by the wayside?

The answer: probably not as often as it seems, but way more than it should. I just want to know why.
Good question. I agree there are people that use religion to suit their own desires.

In today's world it does seem Islam is the religion of choice to misrepresent. Many reasons for that, a few immediatly come to mind..

1. There is no central religious authority in Islam, it is all about personal responsibility. No one has the authority to say any person claiming to be Muslim is not Muslim

2. Because of the current media attention, many people believe Islam promotes hatred and violence, making that concept desirable to violent people. I believe many violent groups actually believe they are practicing Islam.

3. Being Muslim does not have "Membership" One can not "join" Islam as it is not an organization, it is an individual action

4. There is no way a person can prove they are Muslim. All who claim to be Muslim are considered to be Muslim, unless their actions can be proven to be non-Islamic or they say they are not Muslim.
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Old 08-27-2015, 08:05 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,497 times
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"What I am asking then, is even though any religion's intentions are good, does the religion then corrupt the people who adopt it, so that those good intentions fall by the wayside?"

It depends on how you define 'good intentions'.

Have you read the Quran and hadiths? The fundamental intention of Islam is to take over the world - and that includes slaughtering people who do not submit to allah. There are literally hundreds of verses about how allah will inflict endless and terrible punishment on people who will not submit to him. Muslims would consider that to be 'good intentions'. Here is a sample of what the Quran says:

"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

The choice is: submit to Islam or be slaughtered.

Quran 33: 25-27 And Allah repelled those who disbelieved, in their rage, not having obtained any good. And sufficient was Allah for the believers in battle, and ever is Allah Powerful and Exalted in Might. And He brought down those who supported them among the People of the Scripture from their fortresses and cast terror into their hearts [so that] a party you killed, and you took captive a party. And He caused you to inherit their land and their homes and their properties and a land which you have not trodden. And ever is Allah , over all things, competent.

Quran 22: 1 - 2 O mankind, fear your Lord. Indeed, the convulsion of the [final] Hour is a terrible thing. On the Day you see it every nursing mother will be distracted from that [child] she was nursing, and every pregnant woman will abort her pregnancy, and you will see the people [appearing] intoxicated while they are not intoxicated; but the punishment of Allah is severe.

Quran 22:19 These are two adversaries who have disputed over their Lord. But those who disbelieved will have cut out for them garments of fire. Poured upon their heads will be scalding water By which is melted that within their bellies and [their] skins. And for [striking] them are maces of iron. Every time they want to get out of Hellfire from anguish, they will be returned to it, and [it will be said], "Taste the punishment of the Burning Fire!"

The Quran is full of verses like this, including those hundreds of verses about how allah wil endlessly torture all disbelievers in hellfire.

Please, do not take my word for this. You can easily look up verses and even read some or all of the Quran here.

The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????

It is up to you to then decide if verses of hate and incitement to violence and threats of neverending torture for disbelievers are 'good intentions'.
 
Old 08-27-2015, 08:49 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,497 times
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"In today's world it does seem Islam is the religion of choice to misrepresent."

This is true, but not in the way you mean. Islam is being misrepresented as a 'religion of peace' when in fact the only peace is towards those who submit to allah, only even that is not true today as over 10 million Muslims have been slaughtered by other Muslims since 1945.

Today our media and president and judicial system and politicians and liberals and schools are misrepresenting Islam in the name of political correctness. Slowly, a handful of people are learning about Islam by reading the Quran and hadiths and talking to brave ex-Muslims, whose lives are threatened because they left Islam and speak the truth. But Islam is well organized and doing a great job of spreading misinformation about Islam, even while funding terrorism.

A huge price is being paid for this misrepresentation. Where Muslims immigrate, rape skyrockets. There is rioting and demands for Shariah law. Muslims take over neighborhoods and forbid non-Muslims to enter. Hate is fostered towards Jews and Christians.

Time and again I post proof of this.
 
Old 08-27-2015, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"In today's world it does seem Islam is the religion of choice to misrepresent."

This is true, but not in the way you mean. Islam is being misrepresented as a 'religion of peace' when in fact the only peace is towards those who submit to allah, only even that is not true today as over 10 million Muslims have been slaughtered by other Muslims since 1945.

Today our media and president and judicial system and politicians and liberals and schools are misrepresenting Islam in the name of political correctness. Slowly, a handful of people are learning about Islam by reading the Quran and hadiths and talking to brave ex-Muslims, whose lives are threatened because they left Islam and speak the truth. But Islam is well organized and doing a great job of spreading misinformation about Islam, even while funding terrorism.

A huge price is being paid for this misrepresentation. Where Muslims immigrate, rape skyrockets. There is rioting and demands for Shariah law. Muslims take over neighborhoods and forbid non-Muslims to enter. Hate is fostered towards Jews and Christians.

Time and again I post proof of this.
While those things happen, it is not because the people are Muslim.

Historically there has almost always been conflicts leading to violence, when there is mass immigration. In the USA one of the best examples of this was the Immigration of Irish because of the "Potato Famine" in Ireland. there was fear Catholicism was going to replace all other religions in the US and the US would come under Papal Rule. This lasted up until Kennedy became President, but still exists in some areas.

Some of the violence blamed on the immigrant Irish.

The Potato Famine and Irish Immigration to America

Between 1845 and 1855 more than 1.5 million adults and children left Ireland to seek refuge in America. Most were desperately poor, and many were suffering from starvation and disease. They left because disease had devastated Ireland’s potato crops, leaving millions without food. The Potato Famine killed more than 1 million people in five years and generated great bitterness and anger at the British for providing too little help to their Irish subjects. The immigrants who reached America settled in Boston, New York, and other cities where they lived in difficult conditions. But most managed to survive, and their descendants have become a vibrant part of American culture.
BRIA 26 2 The Potato Famine and Irish Immigration to America - Constitutional Rights Foundation

The Philadelphia Nativist Riots (also known as the Philadelphia Prayer Riots, the Bible Riots and the Native American Riots) were a series of riots that took place between May 6 and 8 and July 6 and 7, 1844, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States and the adjacent districts of Kensington and Southwark. The riots were a result of rising anti-Catholic sentiment at the growing population of Irish Catholic immigrants.

In the five months prior to the riots, nativist groups had been spreading a rumor that Catholics were trying to remove the Bible from public schools. A nativist rally in Kensington erupted in violence on May 6 and started a deadly riot that would result in the destruction of two Catholic churches and numerous other buildings. Riots erupted again in July, after it was discovered that St. Philip Neri's Catholic Church in Southwark had armed itself for protection. Fierce fighting broke out between the nativists and the soldiers sent to protect the church, resulting in numerous deaths and injuries. Several Catholic churches were burned but no Catholics were killed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philad...nativist_riots

TOM DEIGNAN writes about the deadly “Orange Riots” in New York City in 1871.

Thanks in large part to Martin Scorsese’s epic movie, Gangs of New York, starring Daniel Day-Lewis, Leonardo DiCaprio and Liam Neeson, the New York Draft Riots are now more or less permanently lodged in the consciousness of most Irish-Americans who are interested in their history.

A slew of books written prior to the movie’s release also helped. There is Peter Quinn’ s epic 1994 novel, The Banished Children of Eve, as well as Kevin Baker’s equally accomplished tome Paradise Alley written a decade later.

And the books just keep on coming. Earlier this year Barnet Schecter pub- lished yet another well-received study of the Draft Riots entitled The Devil’s Own Work: The Civil War Draft Riots and the Fight to Reconstruct America (Walker & Company).

But there were another series of Irish- American riots in July. They were about as deadly as the Draft Riots. And they forced Irishman to fight Irishman. True, such fighting was seen during the Draft Riots too: Immigrant police officers had to arrest, even fire upon, their rampaging countrymen. Irish-born soliders from the frontlines of the U.S. Civil War were also called in to put down Irish rioters.
The Other Irish Riots of July | Irish America

I am not aware of any mass immigration that has not resulted in violence between the Immigrants and the indigenous people. It has nothing to do with Religion, but people will play the religion card often. Simple fact--A massive immigration is seen as a hostile invasion by the indigneous people. Sadly it often becomes so.
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Old 08-27-2015, 09:12 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,497 times
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"While those things happen, it is not because the people are Muslim."

Of course it is! Are Christians trying to have Shariah Law enforced? Are Christians flying planes into buildings in the name of Allah? Are Jews immigrating and mass raping women? Are Buddhists rioting and taking over neighborhoods and forbidding non-Buddhists to enter? Are Wiccans taking over the streets of Paris, blocking ingress and egress?

I am talking about the things that happen because people are Muslim and gang together to make trouble in the name of Islam. This is an Islamic forum, so I am keeping to that topic.

I have already answered the rest of what you post. I'm not answering again.

I am talking about all the terrorist attacks done by Muslims in the name of Allah all over the world.

I am talking about the rioting done in the name of Allah.

I am talking about the attacks on Jews and Christians done in the name of allah.

I am talking about the gang rapes in European countries done by Muslims.

I am talking about Muslims having sex with children because it is allowed in Islam.

etc, etc.....
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