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Old 08-27-2015, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Good question. I agree there are people that use religion to suit their own desires.

In today's world it does seem Islam is the religion of choice to misrepresent. Many reasons for that, a few immediatly come to mind..

1. There is no central religious authority in Islam, it is all about personal responsibility. No one has the authority to say any person claiming to be Muslim is not Muslim

2. Because of the current media attention, many people believe Islam promotes hatred and violence, making that concept desirable to violent people. I believe many violent groups actually believe they are practicing Islam.

3. Being Muslim does not have "Membership" One can not "join" Islam as it is not an organization, it is an individual action

4. There is no way a person can prove they are Muslim. All who claim to be Muslim are considered to be Muslim, unless their actions can be proven to be non-Islamic or they say they are not Muslim.
There are some valid points above but it is a very misleading representation of the facts.

Here are the facts:

1. Islam has positive utility for many but it is partly malignant as represented by the voluminous evil laden verses within the Quran and the martial ethos of Muhammad.
This is evidently glaring terrible evils and violence that are committed by SOME Muslims around the world.

2. In contrast, Buddhism, Jainism and other main Eastern religion do not contain any evil laden verses that are directed at non-believers. As such there is no opportunity then, now and whenever for Buddhist to abuse their religion.

3. Even Christianity has a limiting overriding principle, i.e. 'love your enemy' to limit Christians from abusing their religion to kill non-Christians.

4. Islam on the other hand has a no-holds-barred passport for any evil prone Muslims to rely on the evil laden verses in the Quran to commit evil and violence.

5. It is not that Islam is the today's choice where believers chose to misrepresent. Ever since Islam emerge within humanity, it is in part inherently evil-laden which enable SOME evil prone Muslims to practice what they regarded as truly Islamic. This is facilitate by the fact that there is no central authority to decide whose interpretation is right or wrong.

6. Therefore Islam in part pose a threat to humanity now and the future. We need to be continually critically of Islam till we find practical solutions to deal with the real threat of evil from SOME Muslims who are inspired by the Quranic verses to commit evil upon non-Muslims.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-27-2015 at 10:05 PM..

 
Old 08-28-2015, 09:01 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,501,804 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are some valid points above but it is a very misleading representation of the facts.

Here are the facts:

1. Islam has positive utility for many but it is partly malignant as represented by the voluminous evil laden verses within the Quran and the martial ethos of Muhammad.
This is evidently glaring terrible evils and violence that are committed by SOME Muslims around the world.

2. In contrast, Buddhism, Jainism and other main Eastern religion do not contain any evil laden verses that are directed at non-believers. As such there is no opportunity then, now and whenever for Buddhist to abuse their religion.

3. Even Christianity has a limiting overriding principle, i.e. 'love your enemy' to limit Christians from abusing their religion to kill non-Christians.

4. Islam on the other hand has a no-holds-barred passport for any evil prone Muslims to rely on the evil laden verses in the Quran to commit evil and violence.

5. It is not that Islam is the today's choice where believers chose to misrepresent. Ever since Islam emerge within humanity, it is in part inherently evil-laden which enable SOME evil prone Muslims to practice what they regarded as truly Islamic. This is facilitate by the fact that there is no central authority to decide whose interpretation is right or wrong.

6. Therefore Islam in part pose a threat to humanity now and the future. We need to be continually critically of Islam till we find practical solutions to deal with the real threat of evil from SOME Muslims who are inspired by the Quranic verses to commit evil upon non-Muslims.
Yep.
 
Old 08-28-2015, 09:03 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,665 posts, read 74,604,692 times
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The Quran demands blood
The few that condemn Isis who are Muslim on CDf say Isis is misinterpreting the Quran
I don't think so
 
Old 08-29-2015, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
The Quran demands blood
The few that condemn Isis who are Muslim on CDf say Isis is misinterpreting the Quran
I don't think so
They (Muslims that commit violence and aggression) are claiming to be following Islam. Every Muslim should know you do not learn Islam from the Qur'an and single ayyats should not be taken as commands


When violence is mentioned in the Qur'an for the most part they are in relation to an event that occurred and are not commands of what we should do.

The overall message of the Qur'an "There is only one God and only He is to be worshiped" applies to all people of all times. The relating of events are generally examples of the reasons,not commands, of why we should heed the Message 0f "There is only one God and only He is to be worshiped"

Those committing aggression and atrocities are not following Islam as taught in the 4 Madhabs, (Which contain the practical applications of the Sunnah, Ahadith and Sira and the Jurisprudence applications of the Qur'an) By not following Islam, they are misrepresenting the Qur'an and using it for personal purposes not as a reason to worship.
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Old 08-29-2015, 10:03 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,221 times
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"When violence is mentioned in the Qur'an for the most part they are in relation to an event that occurred and are not commands of what we should do. "

I've investigated that and it's not the case. Even if it were the case, the Quran is written as the direct word from god and of course the Quran and hadiths set an example to follow.

"The overall message of the Qur'an "There is only one God and only He is to be worshiped" applies to all people of all times."

The overall message which does apply to all people of all times is: "There is only one God and only He is to be worshiped or that person will suffer everlasting and terrible torture at the hands of that god."

The Quran has literally hundreds of verses about how allah is going to torture disbelievers throughout all eternity.

You know this.

"The relating of events are generally examples of the reasons,not commands, of why we should heed the Message 0f "There is only one God and only He is to be worshiped"

They are also example of how allah hates the disbelievers and commands Muslims to slaughter, hate terrorize disbelievers.

Three examples:
47: 1 - 4 "Those who disbelieve and avert [people] from the way of Allah - He will waste their deeds. And those who believe and do righteous deeds and believe in what has been sent down upon Muhammad - and it is the truth from their Lord - He will remove from them their misdeeds and amend their condition. That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, and those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Thus does Allah present to the people their comparisons.

So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds."

9:29 "Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

3:144 "O you who have believed, do not take the disbelievers as allies instead of the believers. Do you wish to give Allah against yourselves a clear case?"

5:33 "Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,"
 
Old 08-29-2015, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"When violence is mentioned in the Qur'an for the most part they are in relation to an event that occurred and are not commands of what we should do. "

I've investigated that and it's not the case. Even if it were the case, the Quran is written as the direct word from god and of course the Quran and hadiths set an example to follow.

"The overall message of the Qur'an "There is only one God and only He is to be worshiped" applies to all people of all times."

The overall message which does apply to all people of all times is: "There is only one God and only He is to be worshiped or that person will suffer everlasting and terrible torture at the hands of that god."

The Quran has literally hundreds of verses about how allah is going to torture disbelievers throughout all eternity.

You know this.

"The relating of events are generally examples of the reasons,not commands, of why we should heed the Message 0f "There is only one God and only He is to be worshiped"

They are also example of how allah hates the disbelievers and commands Muslims to slaughter, hate terrorize disbelievers.

Three examples:
47: 1 - 4 "Those who disbelieve and avert [people] from the way of Allah - He will waste their deeds. And those who believe and do righteous deeds and believe in what has been sent down upon Muhammad - and it is the truth from their Lord - He will remove from them their misdeeds and amend their condition. That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, and those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Thus does Allah present to the people their comparisons.

So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds."

9:29 "Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

3:144 "O you who have believed, do not take the disbelievers as allies instead of the believers. Do you wish to give Allah against yourselves a clear case?"

5:33 "Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,"
It would be horrible if a person got sent to hellfire simply because they are not Muslim. Choosing hellfire is a free will choice, a person does not get sent them simply because they are not Muslim. Actually one does not get sent to hellfire, they make the coice they prefer it to heaven and go their because of their own freewill, intentional decisions.

No matter how much you study the Qur'an you will not learn how most Muslims follow Islam. For that you need to know if the person follows a Madhab and to study the Madhab a person follows and even then how the madhab relates to the Nation the person lives in.

Many Sufi are Muslim. Very many of the Sufi Muslims are Hafiz and have memorized the Qur'an. I believe Sufi are probably the most avid readers of the Qur'an and as part of their Dhiker do read at least one Juz daily. Yet aggression and violence is virtually unknown among Sufi and they are often compared to Buddhists.

Two links about Sufi,

Sufism & Qur'an

In this second one Hafiz is a person's name, although it is possible he chose the name Hafiz because he was a Hafiz

YoExpert.com | What was Hafiz's Influence on Sufism?




On the other hand the Wahabi seldom read the Qur'an and some are the most violent of people. Nearly every identified Islamic Terrorist has been Wahabbi.

European Parliament identifies Wahabi and Salafi roots of global terrorism - Blogs - DAWN.COM
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Old 08-29-2015, 12:31 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,221 times
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"It would be horrible if a person got sent to hellfire simply because they are not Muslim. Choosing hellfire is a free will choice, a person does not get sent them simply because they are not Muslim. Actually one does not get sent to hellfire, they make the choice they prefer it to heaven and go their because of their own freewill, intentional decisions."

What nonsense! No one makes a free choice to go to hell and be endlessly tortured. In Islam that is the ONLY alternative for not submitting to allah. Submit to allah or endless torture. BOTH alternatives involve the use of force, which does not mix with free will. Allah is DESTROYING free will.

In fact, I think you have no idea what free will even means. So explain free will to me.

Can you say that Allah is evil for saying such things as this:

Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”
 
Old 08-29-2015, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"It would be horrible if a person got sent to hellfire simply because they are not Muslim. Choosing hellfire is a free will choice, a person does not get sent them simply because they are not Muslim. Actually one does not get sent to hellfire, they make the choice they prefer it to heaven and go their because of their own freewill, intentional decisions."

What nonsense! No one makes a free choice to go to hell and be endlessly tortured. In Islam that is the ONLY alternative for not submitting to allah. Submit to allah or endless torture. BOTH alternatives involve the use of force, which does not mix with free will. Allah is DESTROYING free will.

In fact, I think you have no idea what free will even means. So explain free will to me.

Can you say that Allah is evil for saying such things as this:

Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”
Free will is the ability for an individual to make their own decisions and live by the consequences they entail, if they desire to follow their choice

To truly be free-will there are requirements the most important being it is not free will if the person is not knowledgeable of the probable results.

Such as when I was a child and started smoking it was not a free will choice as I did not know the dangers. However when I was a 25 year old and by then the dangers where known it became my free will choice to choose and figure I was exempt from the dangers.

as for 22:19-22

Wouldn't you expect a good parent to tell their children about the dangers of playing in the Highway- Is the parent cruel mean and unjust for telling them that if they do they might get hit by a car and suffer considerable pain. Possibly even becoming paralyzed for life and suffering deeply if not killed. Is that parent evil for warning the children?

Free will does carry much responsibility, we are obligated to learn the probable consequences of our choices before we make the choice.
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Old 08-29-2015, 03:38 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,221 times
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"Wouldn't you expect a good parent to tell their children about the dangers of playing in the Highway- Is the parent cruel mean and unjust for telling them that if they do they might get hit by a car and suffer considerable pain. Possibly even becoming paralyzed for life and suffering deeply if not killed. Is that parent evil for warning the children?"

To follow your example to it's conclusion, the parent warns the child and if the child disobeys then the parent gets in the car and runs over the child, injuring that child greatly but not killing the child and repeatedly running over the child subjecting massive pain and torture endlessly.

And we're not talking parents here...beings that the child knows exists. We're talking about taking the word of a perverted monster that this supernatural being exists.

"Free will is the ability for an individual to make their own decisions and live by the consequences they entail, if they desire to follow their choice"

'Believe what I tell you to believe or I kill you' is not making your own decision. The foundation of free will is the choice to THINK or not to think. 'Allah' is not allowing that choice. If you don't think what 'allah' demands, you are doomed to hell. You don't get the choice to think that you'd rather not bother with some evil and irrational ideology as far as 'Allah' is concerned. What if I decide Islam is evil....where is my free choice then? Submit to evil or endless torture in hell.

Thank goodness (literally) that Islam is a crock.

"To truly be free-will there are requirements the most important being it is not free will if the person is not knowledgeable of the probable results."

Nonsense. People make choices of their own free will all the time with no idea of probable consequences. Free will has nothing to do with being clairvoyant.

You really have no idea what free will even means. You didn't even mention a code of values.
 
Old 08-29-2015, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Wouldn't you expect a good parent to tell their children about the dangers of playing in the Highway- Is the parent cruel mean and unjust for telling them that if they do they might get hit by a car and suffer considerable pain. Possibly even becoming paralyzed for life and suffering deeply if not killed. Is that parent evil for warning the children?"

To follow your example to it's conclusion, the parent warns the child and if the child disobeys then the parent gets in the car and runs over the child, injuring that child greatly but not killing the child and repeatedly running over the child subjecting massive pain and torture endlessly.

And we're not talking parents here...beings that the child knows exists. We're talking about taking the word of a perverted monster that this supernatural being exists.

"Free will is the ability for an individual to make their own decisions and live by the consequences they entail, if they desire to follow their choice"

'Believe what I tell you to believe or I kill you' is not making your own decision. The foundation of free will is the choice to THINK or not to think. 'Allah' is not allowing that choice. If you don't think what 'allah' demands, you are doomed to hell. You don't get the choice to think that you'd rather not bother with some evil and irrational ideology as far as 'Allah' is concerned. What if I decide Islam is evil....where is my free choice then? Submit to evil or endless torture in hell.

Thank goodness (literally) that Islam is a crock.

"To truly be free-will there are requirements the most important being it is not free will if the person is not knowledgeable of the probable results."

Nonsense. People make choices of their own free will all the time with no idea of probable consequences. Free will has nothing to do with being clairvoyant.

You really have no idea what free will even means. You didn't even mention a code of values.
If you do not know the probable outcomes of an action, you do not have free will as you are funnled by what you have knowledge of.

For exapmle your are givinen the choice of selecting one of 2 boxes. One has 10 dollars in it, one has 1,000 dollars in it. that is all you know. Most people are being funneled to the 1,000 box. what they do not know is the 1,000 box will explode if they open it. they do not have full free will because the do not know the probable outcome.

As to values in free will a person is free to accpt poor valuues, but they should also know they will face the consequences of their choice. In other words if they act with malice, they will eventually pay the penalty for malice.

But that is getting away from what free choice is. If a person does something with knowledge of the probable outcomes, he has done so of his own free will. If some of the probable outcomes are hidden from the person, they do not have free will.

This is where responsibility comes into place. We have the obligation tp learn the outcomes of an action, before we act. If we know the outcome is going to result in harm to us, we are responsible for that harm and chose to accept it. If we do not seek to learn the probable outcome that also is our own choice if we are harmed by it. If there is no way for us to forsee an outcome, It was not a free will choice if that occurs.
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