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Old 09-17-2015, 07:18 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
Reputation: 435

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"I person with even a rudimentary knowledge of Islam is aware that Harming Innocent people, and suicide by one's own free will are acts that can result in eternal hellfire, it is not martyrdom."

The trick word here is 'innocent'. People like me aren't 'innocent' because I speak against Islam and the rape and pedophilia and terrorism and slavery, etc.

Quran 9:5
And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Free will? According to allah there isn't any for Muslims.

47:17:
And those who are guided - He increases them in guidance and gives them their righteousness.

2:26
Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient

2:213
And Allah guided those who believed to the truth concerning that over which they had differed, by His permission. And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path.

2:20
The lightning almost snatches their beholdings (Literally: eyesights); whenever it illuminates for them they walk in it, and when it darkens over them, they keep stationed; and if Allah had so decided, He would indeed have gone away with (i.e., taken away) their hearing and their beholdings. (Literally: eyesights) Surely Allah is Ever Determiner over everything.

2:106 In no way do We abrogate any ayah (i.e. verse, sign) whatsoever or cause it to be forgotten (except that) We come up with (i.e., bring) a more charitable one or the like of it. Do you not know that Allah is Ever-Determiner over everything?

2:148
And to each is a direction towards which he turns, so race with each other for the charitable (deeds). Wherever you may be, Allah will come up with you (i.e., bring you) altogether; surely Allah is Ever-Determiner over everything.

3:26
Say, "O Allah, (The Arabic word has the supplication suffix umma) Possessor of the Kingship, You bring the kingship to whomever You decide, and You draw (Literally: pluck out) the kingship from whomever You decide, and You render mighty whomever You decide, and You humiliate whomever You decide. In Your Hand is (the) Charity; (i.e., the choicest) surely You are Ever-Determiner over everything.

Free will: the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

 
Old 09-17-2015, 08:22 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,501,339 times
Reputation: 3870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
People prone to violence will find a way to justify it.

You may hav noticed that the people who are sending the suicide bombers out, never become suicide bomers them self. They are evil people brain washing young minds.

I person with even a rudimentary knowledge of Islam is aware that Harming Innocent people, and suicide by one's own free will are acts that can result in eternal hellfire, it is not martyrdom.

Islam is very individual. Muslims are not clones to eachother and since most Muslims learn Islam either from their Mothers or on their own you will find a very large variation in our individual beliefs.

there is no central Islamic teaching that all 1.5 billion of us follow.
Woodrow, I think you're a good guy, but in a desire to defend your faith - it seems that you might be in denial. You point out that those prone to violence will find a way to rationalize that violence. Well, what is it about Islam that apparently makes it a ready vehicle for that? And, you refer to 'innocent people'. Who are they? Those who might question or criticize Islam? Those who would reject it due to disbelief? Those who happen to be from a country that attacked people who are Muslim? All very subjective. In spite of the individuality you cite, there are large minorities of Muslims - who, in terms of identify, and an anger re others, seem pretty united.
 
Old 09-17-2015, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Danish teenage girl stabbed mother to death
Lisa Borch was 15 when she stabbed her mother 20 times after becoming radicalised by an Iraqi boyfriend she reportedly met at a refugee centre.
He [stepfather] said that there was little sign of the psychopathic tendencies found by the court psychologists
“I never in my wildest dreams imagined that she could think of doing such a thing. She had a mother who loved her and did everything she could to help her,” he said.

The Quran do exhort believers to show kindness to parents and others but there are also many verses in the Quran that promote 'distancing' & contempt from one parents and kins who are not Muslim. Here is on one [amongst] many
64:14. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Lo! among your wives and your children there are enemies [infidels] for you, therefor beware of them.

I acknowledge 90% of Muslim will not be influenced by the evil verses but the fact that such verses exists itself is a potential problem if 10% have such inclinations. And a small 10% is a big 150 million pool of potentials [1.5 billion Muslims x 10%].
That is how such evil and violent news as the above happened and it will be worse when Europe allows more refugees who are Muslims.
 
Old 09-17-2015, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
People prone to violence will find a way to justify it.
You may have noticed that the people who are sending the suicide bombers out, never become suicide bomers them self. They are evil people brain washing young minds.
This is part of human nature in wars, gangs, politics etc. that the commander's duty is to command the people in the field.
Did Hitler and his top commanders ever turned on the gas switch?
General Tojo did not fly any Kamikaze plane.
 
Old 09-17-2015, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Eastern Shore of Maryland
5,941 posts, read 2,701,747 times
Reputation: 5617
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
Woodrow, I think you're a good guy, but in a desire to defend your faith - it seems that you might be in denial. You point out that those prone to violence will find a way to rationalize that violence. Well, what is it about Islam that apparently makes it a ready vehicle for that? And, you refer to 'innocent people'. Who are they? Those who might question or criticize Islam? Those who would reject it due to disbelief? Those who happen to be from a country that attacked people who are Muslim? All very subjective. In spite of the individuality you cite, there are large minorities of Muslims - who, in terms of identify, and an anger re others, seem pretty united.
If the major Religion in the Middle East was Christianity, the thread would ask why Christians where so violent. Its the people, and what they believe, not the Religion. In Iraq, why where "Blackwater" Contractors so violent? Why did they randomly kill so many innocent people. I am sure they all where not Muslims, yet the killed innocent Muslims with impunity. Our own Military caused much of the violence also. If the Chinese invaded America, killing our Fathers, Mothers, Sons and Daughters, I presume we would become a very violent people really quickly. And I am sure many of us would go after Chinese where ever we could find them. I am also sure the Chinese population would wonder why Christians where such a Violent people.

America is reaping the fruit of the seeds they have planted all over the World, while exporting Democracy. Toppling Governments, Bombing civilians, and interfering with legitimate Government rule, just because we don't like it, and providing arms and ammunition for Countries to kill Muslims, like supporting Iraq in killing Iranians, and supporting Israel in killing its Muslim enemies, that have never done any harm to us, is not going to make a "Loving" relationship with other Countries.

Wise up people. We are not the "Victims" here. We are one of the "Players" and Religion has very little to do with it.

As far as the Cartoonist thingy, I say "Oh Well." Its not like they did not know what the results could be. Neither one of us would walk up to a Big Dude in a Bar, and show him a degrading picture of his Mother, for no other reason than "Freedom of Speech." If you did, I would look at you too, laying in the floor, and say "Oh Well."
 
Old 09-17-2015, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Eastern Shore of Maryland
5,941 posts, read 2,701,747 times
Reputation: 5617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I acknowledge 90% of Muslim will not be influenced by the evil verses but the fact that such verses exists itself is a potential problem if 10% have such inclinations.

You mean sort of like the writings, " An Eye for an Eye" or "He Who Lives by the Sword Shall Die By the Sword." Or like bringing down an entire City because it was deemed that the people where living in sin? Or David Killing Goliath? Or "Cleansing" the Land by mass killing everyone by flooding, for going against the chosen Religion?? Things like that?

Yep, those evil verses in that "Muslim" Book .....
 
Old 09-17-2015, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris347 View Post
You mean sort of like the writings, " An Eye for an Eye" or "He Who Lives by the Sword Shall Die By the Sword." Or like bringing down an entire City because it was deemed that the people where living in sin? Or David Killing Goliath? Or "Cleansing" the Land by mass killing everyone by flooding, for going against the chosen Religion?? Things like that?

Yep, those evil verses in that "Muslim" Book .....
Noted the .

Have you read the Quran and understood it fully?
I have been studying the Quran seriously for the last 9months [still ongoing] on a full time basis.

The NT Bible has an overriding principle of 'Love thy enemies..' to limit whatever violence intended for others.

On the other hand the Quran is 'no-holds-barred' for violence and evils as sanctioned by Allah even under the vaguest circumstances.

If 10% of Muslims have inclinations of evil and violence that is a potential pool of 150 million. Even if we take 1% that is 15 millions. It only took 18++ to do a 911 and even lone wolves can create terrible evil and violence.

The truth and proofs of my point; 26,892



The above merely relate to incidents of terror with deaths. What about the other tons of evil and violence acts committed by evil prone Muslims inspired by verses from the Quran?
 
Old 09-17-2015, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,231,932 times
Reputation: 36087
During the Vietnam war, it was not at all difficult to randomly select young Christian boys, and in a few months, without even threatening them, indoctrinate them to set little children on fire and watch them burn. Only a tiny minority of such Christian boys said No to those kinds of orders, or even questioned the morality of them. The few who did resist, were mostly irreligious non-believers.
 
Old 09-17-2015, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
During the Vietnam war, it was not at all difficult to randomly select young Christian boys, and in a few months, train them to set little children on fire and watch them burn. Only a tiny minority of such Christian boys said No to those kinds of orders, or even questioned the morality of them.
Your views are too shallow and narrow.

At present there are Buddhists in Myanmar committing violence and evils against the Rohingyas. The deeper and wider point here is these violent Buddhists do not rely on any Buddhists Sutra and act in the name of the Buddha.
The fact is there are no glaring verses in the Buddhist sutra that can inspired any violent prone Buddhist to commit evil.
These evil Buddhists are committing evil due to their inherent human nature and not due to the religion per se.

It is similar for Christianity and the NT. There are violent verses in the NT but there is overriding principle of 'Love thy neighbors ...' and other pacifist and non-violence restraint.
Anyone can easily be a Christian by birth or otherwise. Those Christians in the Vietnam War were of these sort but they were not inspired by verses in the religion per-se. Rather they were brainwashed into violence by the US Army. Ask Woodrow LI [he was there] to confirm this.

I wrote in a post before yours [overlapped?]
On the other hand the Quran is 'no-holds-barred' for violence and evils as sanctioned by Allah even under the vaguest circumstances.

See the other points therein.
 
Old 09-17-2015, 11:39 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,501,339 times
Reputation: 3870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris347 View Post
If the major Religion in the Middle East was Christianity, the thread would ask why Christians where so violent. Its the people, and what they believe, not the Religion. In Iraq, why where "Blackwater" Contractors so violent? Why did they randomly kill so many innocent people. I am sure they all where not Muslims, yet the killed innocent Muslims with impunity. Our own Military caused much of the violence also. If the Chinese invaded America, killing our Fathers, Mothers, Sons and Daughters, I presume we would become a very violent people really quickly. And I am sure many of us would go after Chinese where ever we could find them. I am also sure the Chinese population would wonder why Christians where such a Violent people.

America is reaping the fruit of the seeds they have planted all over the World, while exporting Democracy. Toppling Governments, Bombing civilians, and interfering with legitimate Government rule, just because we don't like it, and providing arms and ammunition for Countries to kill Muslims, like supporting Iraq in killing Iranians, and supporting Israel in killing its Muslim enemies, that have never done any harm to us, is not going to make a "Loving" relationship with other Countries.

Wise up people. We are not the "Victims" here. We are one of the "Players" and Religion has very little to do with it.

As far as the Cartoonist thingy, I say "Oh Well." Its not like they did not know what the results could be. Neither one of us would walk up to a Big Dude in a Bar, and show him a degrading picture of his Mother, for no other reason than "Freedom of Speech." If you did, I would look at you too, laying in the floor, and say "Oh Well."
Well, I think religion is largely part of the problem. Without getting into the 'turn the other cheek' aspect of Christianity (as an anti-theist I'm not going to be an apologist for the religion), its saving grace is that it's become more 'secularized' than Islam. Islam, being the literal word of god is intransigent, which makes it more problematical.
There's no question the Iraqi misadventure was a monumental (and predictable) blunder. The removal of a secular dictator was a gift to the Islamists. As for the Blackwater contractors - why the violence? Probably an arrogant dismissal of the other, compounded by a sort of snarling Imperialist attitude. Yes, the West has violent tendencies too - no reason though to suggest that Islam lacks (though without the mitigating legacy of the Enlightenment) them too.
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