U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 09-18-2015, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Oh, so now you refer to the hadiths! LOL

"1. “Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.” (Sunan Abu Dawud)"

It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: “They are from them.” (Sahih Muslim 4322, see also Bukhari 52:256)

<snip>

3. Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees.(Al-Muwatta)

Are you joking? This is a rule of war??!! Steal all of what people worked so hard to produce. Slaughter the men and rape and enslave or sell the women, but save the palm trees!!
<snip>.

Laughable. See above quotes.
You are very efficient on this re the hadiths.

This is relevant to the Hadiths;
"You can't have your cake and eat it [too]".

The point is those who adopt the Hadiths [Sunni and Shia]cannot use the verses therein for any justifications in an argument with others due to their very self-contradictory nature.
Many of the verses go against the Quran [the final arbiter in Islam] to the extent of insulting the prophet and the religion.
At most the Hadiths can only be used as a personal guide where one need to close one eyes to the unsavory verses or blindly adopt them.

Note the many explanations in Youtube and elsewhere by Sheikh Yasser al Habib;

One example;
Sheikh Yasser Al-Habib explains the Shia view of Aisha and why she is considered to have betrayed The Prophet using Sunni authentic haddith.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTV9Ldrbgwo

 
Old 09-18-2015, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,269,803 times
Reputation: 36087
ISIS, Taliban and alQaeda put together never won the sympathy of even one percent of the Muslim faithful in the world. Estmiated maximum strength, ISIS 80,000, Taliban 60,000, alQaeda 27,000, total about 160,000, which is one-one-hundredth of one percent of all the world's Muslims, who are (you say) indoctrimated to such an ideological bloodthirst that they can 't wait to go on savage rampages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post

Why would 'docile' people choose to follow an ideology that demands terrorism and hate and endless torture of non-believers and rape and murder? I think that these people have been brainwashed before ISIS, the Taliban or AlQaeda get hold of them. Personally, I'm docile and if one of these groups came after me to join them, I'd run for the hills. And, turn them in!
Why did docile people follow an ideology that sent them to Vietnam to set children on fire and watch them burn? They were brainwashed before. Not by religious doctrine, but by nationalisic doctrine.

Were you docile enough to have headed for the Canadian hills if you had been draft age in the 1960s? Or would you have said Yes Sir to all the lies and grabbed the pails of napalm?

If ISIS tried to recruit you, who would you "turn them in" to, if all Muslims are ideologically evil in the first place?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post

On the other hand, the US Army and others armies do not belong to a specific religion and they do not inspire their soldiers from any specific religious texts. Their brainwashing are typical and conventional. In addition, the US Army comprised of soldiers from all religions and the secular.
You are assuming religion has some intrinsic magic that gives it unique power to indoctrinate. But Nationalism proved just as potent in the USA in the 20th century, as well as in Germany, the USSR, China, to inspire mindless evil for the fatherland. Roman Centurions were completely irreligious, and overran the whole known world in the name of Roman Nationalism. The extremist nationalist movements held sway with a majority of their citizenry, sometimes nearly unanimously.

Last edited by jtur88; 09-18-2015 at 10:13 PM..
 
Old 09-18-2015, 10:02 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,713 times
Reputation: 435
"Why did docile people follow an ideology that sent them to Vietnam to set children on fire and watch them burn?"

They didn't follow that ideology (what was that ideology, anyways?). As you noted, these young men were DRAFTED. They had no choice, except to try to flee the country. And because this was not their ideology, many turned to drugs or had terrible psychological problems. A forced compliance is not a sanction. All of us are forced to comply with many laws that violate our rights, but so long as we advocate the repeal of such laws, our compliance does not constitute a sanction.

This principle also applies to Muslims slaughtering those who leave Islam or threatening to slaughter those who will not join Islam....both are issues of initiation of force against individuals and both are evil. I do not consider unwilling people who were forced into Islam at the point of a gun or sword to be Muslims.

"If ISIS tried to recruit you, who would you "turn them in" to,"

FBI, CIA, certainly not CAIR!!

Why would 'docile' people choose to follow an ideology that demands terrorism and hate and endless torture of non-believers and rape and murder? Read my question more carefully.
 
Old 09-18-2015, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You are assuming religion has some intrinsic magic that gives it unique power to indoctrinate. But Nationalism proved just as potent in the USA in the 20th century, as well as in Germany, the USSR, China, to inspire mindless evil for the fatherland. Roman Centurions were completely irreligious, and overran the whole known world in the name of Roman Nationalism.

ISIS, Taliban and alQaeda put together never won the sympathy of even one percent of the Muslim faithful in the world. But the extremist nationalist movements held sway with a majority of their citizenry, sometimes nearly unanimously.
I am not assuming but claiming it to be a truth of the issue.
This is what I wrote [my default position] in the other posts;
http://www.city-data.com/forum/41254362-post6.html

I have traced the above root causes to;

1. DNA wise ALL humans has an inherent potential for evil.
2. 10% [conservatively] of humans are most likely to be reasonable evil prone.
3. Thus 10% of Muslims are evil prone
4. There are hundreds to thousands of evil laden [in degrees] verses in the Quran.
5. The combination of 3 & 4 culminate in the Reality highlighted in above statistics and elsewhere.
6. Therefore Islam [in part] has violent potentials as realized over the past centuries to the present.

The above conclusion in 6 is not 'blame' per se but actual proof based on verifiable evidences.

Therefore to resolve the problem one must first recognize the above factual root causes, i.e.
Islam [in part] is responsible for most of the evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.
The following is also relevant to your deflection to other non-religious elements, e.g. Nationalism, etc.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/41254362-post6.html

This is your usual deflection and not recognizing a particular evil for what it is.

I have stated, ALL human evils and violence must be addressed.
As a principle of Problem-Solving Technique, it is essential to break down a problem into common pattern and manageable units to facilitate efficiency.
This is why we have specialists in all fields of human activities, e.g. medicine, psychology, knowledge, etc.
Would you recommend such an approach?

One significant division is breaking the issues of evil into
1. Secular and
2. Religious [related and inspired]

Since this is a Religion/Spirituality forum it is inappropriate to bring in non-religious evil as a red-herring.

The tendency to dilute the specific evils of religion with other evils is purely due to psychological and emotional factors of the individual.
 
Old 09-18-2015, 11:14 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,502,841 times
Reputation: 3870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The US Government is driven by its non-religious Constitution.
Thank god!
 
Old 09-18-2015, 11:24 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,502,841 times
Reputation: 3870
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You are assuming religion has some intrinsic magic that gives it unique power to indoctrinate. But Nationalism proved just as potent in the USA in the 20th century, as well as in Germany, the USSR, China, to inspire mindless evil for the fatherland. Roman Centurions were completely irreligious, and overran the whole known world in the name of Roman Nationalism. The extremist nationalist movements held sway with a majority of their citizenry, sometimes nearly unanimously.
I think it does - the notion of some invisible omnipotent being can be a mighty carrot for the less educated or the lost. Secularism may not be perfect, but at least (in theory) it's subject to rational arguments. If you look around the world, generally the more secular a society is, the more developed it is. Even if you look at that relative outlier re a tendency towards religion (for the West) - the US, the more developed and advanced regions tend to be the least religious.
 
Old 09-19-2015, 06:13 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,269,803 times
Reputation: 36087
By what standard do you declare that the Muslim people are "so violent", yet a much tinier fraction of them are predisposed to violent persuasion? If Muslim indoctrination is so compelling, how is it that 99.99% of Muslims fail to heed the irresistable call of Allah to engage in acts of violence with ISIS, Taliban, alQaeda, some crank village imam, or anybody else?
 
Old 09-19-2015, 08:37 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,713 times
Reputation: 435
"By what standard do you declare that the Muslim people are "so violent", yet a much tinier fraction of them are predisposed to violent persuasion?"

False assumption. Take a look at reality.

When Muslims immigrate to Western countries, they engage in rape and rioting and terrorism IN THE NAME OF ISLAM. Do some research. Look at Sweden, now the rape capital of the world. Look at the rioting in Europe. Look at the terrorist attacks in the name of Islam. Also consider the Muslim celebration of terrorist attacks.

Over and over mosques are exposed supporting terrorism in some fashion and teaching hatred.
"A new study has demonstrated that 80% of mosques right in this country are teaching jihad warfare and Islamic supremacism....As long ago as 1998, Sheikh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, a Sufi leader, visited 114 mosques in the United States. Then he gave testimony before a State Department open forum in January 1999 declaring that Islamic supremacists controlled most mosques in America."
Most U.S. Mosques Teach Violence | Human Events

Since 1946, over 10 MILLION Muslims have been slaughtered by other Muslims IN THE NAME OF ISLAM.

We see horrible (violent) human rights abuses in Islamic countries IN THE NAME OF ISLAM.

Throughout history, Islam has invaded and slaughtered IN THE NAME OF ISLAM. Millions upon millions have been slaughtered. The Islamic slave trade caused the deaths of about 120 million Africans. Remember that Muhammed would make slaves out of captive women after slaughtering their fathers, sons and husbands. The number of Christians slaughtered by Islam comes to about 60 million. The jihad against India took the lives of about 80 million Indians. Jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India. The total is roughly 10 million.

Over and over Muslims are caught supporting jihad in a variety of ways. They send financial support to terrorist groups. They move to countries and start demanding special rights that promote Islam. Muslims are clever. They know there is more ways than one to take over a country. Read my article above. "At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs....They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply. (United States ).....At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. .....When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris –car-burnings) . Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats ( Amsterdam – Mohammed cartoons)......After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning.......At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare......From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels......After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide......100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam’ — the Islamic House of Peace — there’s supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim, but that is when Muslims start slaughtering each other.

We are watching this happen all over the world today. The proof is right in front of you. Take a hard look at the countries listed.

Islam is built on hate and violence.

Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah”. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally.'” — Bukhari 8.387

“Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords.'” — Bukhari 52.73
 
Old 09-19-2015, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,269,803 times
Reputation: 36087
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post

We are watching this happen all over the world today. The proof is right in front of you. Take a hard look at the countries listed.

I lived in one for two years. I spent three weeks in one this summer. I must have missed something, what was it I was supposed to be looking for?
 
Old 09-19-2015, 06:09 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,713 times
Reputation: 435
"I lived in one for two years. "

Which one?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top