Why is Islam so violent? (heaven, verses, hell, Mecca)

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by Continuum

It is true we need to take into account the norms, customs and contexts of whatever era in any hermeneutical analysis.

However, for any holy texts to be a platform for eternal universal theological principles for believers, they must at least pass the basic moral test. And since God is omnipotent, omniscience, the question is why he [it] did not do so in the holy texts. The reason is because the Quran and Hadiths are not from God but from humans with potentials for corruption to suit their personal interests.

Note the following from the Quran where Muhammad is supposed to be an exemplar to all Muslims;

“And indeed you (O Muhammad) are of an exalted standard of character.” (Qur’an 68: 4)
“Indeed in Allah’s Messenger (Muhammad) you have an excellent example to follow for him who hopes in (meeting with) Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah much.” (Qur’an 33: 21)

When Muhammad is claimed to be an excellent example for mankind, to include a narration in the holy texts of his marriage to a 6 years old, consummated at 9 is very weird and present a very bad moral example for mankind to follow.

Fact is, as far as the hadiths are concern we should qualify them with the major [first] premise that Hadiths are merely 'Fish Tales' and Chinese Whispers.
Many of hadiths are an insult to Muhammad and the religion.

Well the Ahadith are not from God(swt) they are the observations of witnesses and as such it is possible they contain errors. One reason there are levels of Reliability and authenticity.

The highest confirmation of authenticity would be a minimum of 4 independent chains of narration leading back to the very same witness. The Highest level of reliability would we a minimum of 4 independent witnesses relating the same event with no contradictions in their observations. that is the Sunni rules of authenticity. the Shi'ite have a different set of rules and there are differences between what Shi'ite and Sunni accept as Hadith.

For example the Shi'ite do not accept any Hadith narrated by Aisha.

[PDXNative2Houston]

Originally Posted by juju33312

"We explain that the Prophet (saw) did not have a marriage to Aisha (ra) until after she had reached puberty"

The hadiths say that you are wrong. According to hadiths Muhammed 'married' Aisha when she was six. Do not tell me that at six Aisha had reached puberty.

Muhammed started raping her when she was nine. It was possible but very unlikely that she could have had menarche unusually early. But according to Islam, that was not the case. She was still playing with her dolls, which means she had not had menarche when Muhammed started raping her.

The issue of menarche is a false issue. The start of menarche is ONE part of the journey to sexual maturity. Another would be the ability to give informed consent. Another would be a sexually mature body, which a 9 year old does not have.

What we have here is something very perverted. A 53 year old man wanting to screw a 9 year old child...a 4th grader. It completely flies in the face of HUMAN sexuality and turns it into some savage animal behavior. Actually, it is worse as animals do not even do such a thing!! Only the most evil of sub-humans, like Muhammed, rape children. Humans, including animals, are protective of children. To rape a child is to terrorize that child. There is a reason why pedophiles are the lowest of the low in prisons.

What kind of man wants to rape a little girl? The pain involved, the psychological harm, the injury to the child.....and what is that kind of sex based on? Nothing good. Nothing rational. Certainly not mutual respect and common values. THINK ABOUT A 53 YEAR OLD MAN RAPING A 9 YEAR OLD CHILD!

To top it off, Muhammed was setting an example for the future. The example he set was rape, pedophilia, terrorism, hate, murder, backwardness, illiteracy, stupidity, submission to evil, slavery, perversions.....

Let's remember that raping a child was ONE of MANY evils that Muhammed pulled.

"Further your missing on the fact up until the mid-twentieth century, most Arabs did not keep records of birth dates,"

This is one of the very common excuses apologetics use. Aisha's age is clearly documented in the hadiths and it was clearly documented that she was a child, still playing with dolls and swinging with her girlfriends.

"Another piece of information that you seem to be forgetting was that the Prophet (saw) was married to one woman starting at the age of 25 for nearly two decades, a woman that was much his *senior* not a youth. "

According to statistics provided by the Mayo Clinic, 93% of heterosexual male pedophiles have also engaged in adult relationships.

Also, this woman was RICH.

So to sum it up... Muhammed, at 53 years old and very horney sub-human, raped a little 9 year old child who had not even had her first period, let alone reached puberty, a PROCESS of becoming mature and ready for a sexual relationship, but not with horney old men. Muhammed also hit the child on her chest and watched as another man smacked her around. Muhammed made Aisha clean gobs of sperm from his clothes, probably there from screwing his many other wives and slaves in addition to raping Aisha. Muhammed was into bathing and fondling with Aisha and his other wives when they were on their periods after warning others never to do such a thing. Muhammed also raped women and sold women and ordered women to be slaughtered.

You am very comfortable with it.

I think you need to learn how to use the "Quote" function and break up different quotes to make what your trying to say more digestible. That just looks like a massive block of text/rants. But from what I gather you ignored our explanation in regards to explaining what a marriage is to a westerner, versus what a marriage contract/engagement is. You also ignore that the Prophet (saw) had no, and I mean "0" history of engaging or being around young women up until his marriage to Aisha (ra). Again this is *not* the track record of a sexual pervert or pedophile, one does not just get up in his 50's and decide to be a pedophile...there would have been documented and reported cases of him engaging in this behavior before then and unfortunately for your argument here is none of that.

And again you miss entirely on the age construct...whether she was 9 or 90, the marriage was consummated (meaning sex) when she had reached puberty. Hadeeth is not Quran and there is no infallible age figure, any guess at an age in a hadeeth is just that, a guess...an estimate.

And I didn't know having sex with one's wife was rape? I guess I'm a ravid rapist, as well as the majority of the posters in this forum.

[rm1856]

I am a devout practicing Muslim as that I study and practice everyday. There is no violence in Islam and those folks who said they are Muslim and commit acts of violence are totally mislead and have grievously sinned against humanity. I go to mosque frequently and they always teach us to not to do any injustice to anyone as one of the biggest parts of keeping our duty to God and if anyone insults us we should ignore them and stay away from them.

[juju33312]

"But from what I gather you ignored our explanation in regards to explaining what a marriage is to a westerner, versus what a marriage contract/engagement is."

I am going by what many Islamic hadith say...not what you say. When I find out that you have replaced the hadiths as a respected source of Islam, I'll listen to you.

"Again this is *not* the track record of a sexual pervert or pedophile, one does not just get up in his 50's and decide to be a pedophile"

Yes, that does happen. Cases of pedophelia go undocumented, or finally there is opportunity. Who knows what Muhammed did that was not documented. How old was he when he started having his 'revelations'? 40? How much of his earlier sex life was closely watched and documented? We know he tried to get other men to fondle young girls and we know the Quran says it is OK to rape little girls prior to menarche.

Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.
Qur'an Text/Transliteration 65:4

The exact translation of this portion of Qur'an 65:4 is "Not menstruated yet" ( لَمْ يَحِضْنَ ).

Have you read the accounts in the hadith where Aisha talks about what happened? Do that. It is very sad.

No decent man rapes a little 9 year old child. Period. Only pedophiles rape 9 year old little girls.

"Muhammad is a narcissist, a pedophile, a mass murderer,
a terrorist, a misogynist, a lecher, a cult leader, a madman
a rapist, a torturer, an assassin and a looter."
Former Muslim Ali Sina offered $50,000 to anyone
who could prove otherwise based on Islamic texts.
The reward has gone unclaimed.

[juju33312]

"There is no violence in Islam and those folks who said they are Muslim and commit acts of violence are totally mislead and have grievously sinned against humanity."

Really? Then you will be happy to post these beautiful and peaceful verses from the Quran:

Qur’an 22:19-22

Qur’an 8:12

Quran 9:73 - 74

Quran 9:5

Quran 47:3-4

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

One little point What evidence is there that the Muslim population forms a standard bell curve? While a Bell Curve is probably classical and ideal, very few statistical measurements will form a bell curve. Most statistical measurements are skewed.

The degree of skewness is more likely in small populations. However with a total population of 7 billion and 1.5 billion Muslims the variable of 'good' and 'evil' is most likely to be near the ideal.

another issue, who do you identify as Muslims? We have no means of identifying who is a Muslim we can only identify those that say they are Muslim. Among those who profess to be Muslim we have

Sunni
Shi'ite
NOI
Ahmadiyyat
Sufi
Ismaili
Deobandi
Wahabbi
and quite a few others.


there is considerable differences among each. Some are Qur'ani-- Qur'an only and reject hadith, madhabs and sunnah (Sunnah is comprised to a large extent of ahadith and madhabs)

Rouughly 80 t0 85% of all people who claim to be Muslim claim to be Sunni. Of them you have followers of one of the 4 Madhabs, those that follow Sufi,, Those that follow Salafi or Wahabbi, Those that are Qur'ani and others. about 30% of those claiming to be Sunni follow the Hanafi Madhab.

However since the authority for Hanafi are in order of importance:
Qur'an
Sunnah
consensus of the Ulemah
Necessity
Local custom

There will be differences among Hanafi from different Locations. .

Yes there are a large number (Although the percentage is low) of Muslims that are violent, Are the violent ones divided evenly among all flavors of Muslims or are some flavors more prone to violence?

I had mentioned the core of Islam is the Quran. The Quran describes who qualify as a Muslim and the final end is success in reaching paradise.
In general a Muslim is one who accept Allah as the only god [no partners & no sons] and his revelation of the Last Day and resurrection, plus obey Muhammad and practices the five pillars. This is a Muslim in substance.
The religion of Islam is perfected in the Quran.
Therefore to be a perfect Muslim one must follow as perfectly as possible on what is dictated in the Quran.

You mentioned the various sects and schools of Islam above.

How Islamic and perfect the followers of each school can be as close as being perfect Muslims will be measured by how close they practice what is dictated in the Quran. This is mentioned in the Quran, i.e. the degree of reward of one get in heaven will be measured against how one practice as a Muslim in this World. Note 56:10 - the foremost in the race will get the greatest rewards in heaven.

The Ahmadiyyats, Sufis [persecuted, slain and oppressed] who are more humane and compromised what is dictated in the Quran are considered heretics by those who are serious with the doctrines of the Quran. The Mu'tazilites who rely highly on reason, wisdom and rational thinking are also considered heretic because the compromise the Quran.

The Wahabi, Sunni, Shia attempt to get as close as possible to the Quran supported by the Hadiths, Sira and other guides. Logically, since they attempt to comply as much as possible with the Quran with minimal compromise they will be considered as 'foremost in the race' and get the greatest rewards in heaven.

Now because the Quran has 55% of its verses containing negative, antagonistic and violent elements of various degrees we can expect those who try to be the truest Muslims be a source of violence on non-Muslims.

From the glaring evidence we see today, it is obvious the majority source of violence are from "some" Muslims in the Wahabi and Sunni sects.

Thus to understand the root cause of Islamic violence we must give attention to the Quran and the accompanying texts.

Would you agree the Quran [in part] is inherently violent?
This is made worse because the Quran which is the words of God is immutable.
In addition, the abrogation rule dictate that the very aggressive verses of the Medinian override the Meccan verses where is counts.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by rm1856

I am a devout practicing Muslim as that I study and practice everyday. There is no violence in Islam and those folks who said they are Muslim and commit acts of violence are totally mislead and have grievously sinned against humanity. I go to mosque frequently and they always teach us to not to do any injustice to anyone as one of the biggest parts of keeping our duty to God and if anyone insults us we should ignore them and stay away from them.

I wonder if you have read the Quran's 6236 verses thoroughly plus those of the Hadiths, the Sira and other guides.
It is likely that believers are very emotional and psychological in their faith [beliefs not based on proofs nor reason] and thus are cognitively blind and influence by Confirmation Bias.

I have read the Quran objectively and noted 55%, i.e. 3400+ of the verses contain negative, antagonistic and violent elements that are directed at the Kuffar or infidels.

Note 1:7
Pickthall: The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
Khan-Hilali: The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace , not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

The above verse set the tone of cautions and hatred for Jews and Christians. In addition the 3400++ antagonistic and violent verses act as catalyst that trigger 'some' [20% = 300 million] to act in accordance to what is dictated in the Quran.

Perhaps you are a very good human being and thus side step the violent elements in the Quran. But you can't claim all Muslims are like you. Btw, have you visited all [or at least a large sample] the Mosques in your country and around the world. Those Muslims who committed violence definitely has sinned against humanity but they have not sinned in accordance to the Quran, the Hadiths and the Sira. As per the Quran they would be regarded as 'foremost in the race' to heaven -56:10

I suggest you reread your Quran again, but this time try to be very objective.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston

Another piece of information that you seem to be forgetting was that the Prophet (saw) was married to one woman starting at the age of 25 for nearly two decades, a woman that was much his *senior* not a youth. That is not the track record of someone who engages in pedophilia or has any sort of perverse inclinations. Rather look at and review the lives and backgrounds of those engaged in what we consider pedophilia today...they started to have such inclinations and were engaged in practices of perversion from quite a young age.

There are explanations to this.
His widowed wife Khadija was a very rich and influential lady in the community.
If Muhammad were to attempt to marry another wife he would risk losing all that wealth and influence.

Btw pedophilla is inherent in the DNA/RNA just like homosexuality, color blind, etc.. The majority do not has such tendencies to have sexual intercourse with young girls. It can come in degree and often it is more active when one is older. Most pedophile caught so far are older men. When one has such inherent DNA/RNA it is not easy to change. Note in the case of Bruce Jenner [macho male] becoming a transgender women at 65.

So to sum it up...the Prophet (saw) married & consummated the marriage with a woman whom had reached puberty. In modern terms someone around the age was of Aisha (ra) is no where near ready for school and with the exception of a few cases has not reached puberty. In 7th century Arabia this was not the case and therefore I am very comfortable with it.

This consummation was merely to comply with local ethics and since Omar was his loyal follower. However the pedophilla DNA/RNA tendency is inherent in the person and the confirmation of its existence is the act.

In addition, Muhammad was supposed to be an exemplar [the perfect model of a human] to mankind and all Muslims. Thus his actions would be extracted as an eternal principles of life for Muslims to follow. Therefore something is wrong when his actions that do not pass basic moral for all humans are recorded in the holy texts of Islam.
Since God is omnipotent [all powerful], god should have enabled Muhammad to control his lust and act like what a perfect human should be and for future generations to follow. Again something is wrong in this contradiction and lapse.

[juju33312]

"Since God is omnipotent [all powerful], god should have enabled Muhammad to control his lust and act like what a perfect human should be and for future generations to follow. "


Or perhaps chosen a prophet who would not rape a child. And would not rape women, let his men mass rape women, sell and enslave women (and men), would not have people slaughtered, or hit a child, or make little boys and babies suck on his tongue, etc, etc. However it seems allah suggested and even demanded most of these things. But instead, this all powerful CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE encouraged Muhammed's evil behavior!

Which brings me back to the question that no Muslim will answer:

Why didn't allah punish muhammed for murdering and raping and selling women and for raping and hitting a little child and torturing people and being a terrorist? All those things are evil, but allah made this evil man his prophet and his example to muslims on how to behave!! Allah even encouraged such evil!

Why did allah give Muslims one of the most evil men on earth to follow as a perfect example?

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by Continuum

-----SNIP-----

Would you agree the Quran [in part] is inherently violent?
This is made worse because the Quran which is the words of God is immutable.
In addition, the abrogation rule dictate that the very aggressive verses of the Medinian override the Meccan verses where is counts.

At the moment just addressing the last Paragraph.

I will agree there are many ayyats (lines) that when read as stand alone comments or viewed as commands they are extremely violent.

But, none of them is to be considered a commandment nor should be read alone. Each ayyat has to be taken in the context of the Surah or at least the portion of the Surah that is speaking of the particular topic.

What I see frequently being done by the haters of the Qur'an is they frequently take an ayyat out of context, or worse even truncate the ayyat. They also falsely present the ayyat as if it was a command.

Just as an example I will illustrate with some ayyats the hate sites seem to place emphasis on.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

For this and the following replies I am using Assad's translation. While all translations do contain the opinion of the translator I find Assad to be the most accurate in terms of today's English.
For best understanding one should use at least 3 different translations. But for brvityI am using just the one I find to be the most reliable. (I do read Arabic reasonably well)
What I do notice is the hate sites always leave off 190 and 194 which are an integral part of the message

2:190 (Asad) AND FIGHT in God's cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression-for, verily, God does not love aggressors.
2:191 (Asad) And slay them wherever you may come upon them, and drive them away from wherever they drove you away - for oppression is even worse than killing. And fight not against them near the Inviolable House of Worship unless they fight against you there first; [169] but if they fight against you, slay them: such shall be the recompense of those who deny the truth.
2:192 (Asad) But if they desist-behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.
2:193 (Asad) Hence, fight against them until there is no more oppression and all worship is devoted to God alone; [170] but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who [wilfully] do wrong.
2:194 (Asad) Fight during the sacred months if you are attacked: for a violation of sanctity is [subject to the law of] just retribution. Thus, if anyone commits aggression against you, attack him just as he has attacked you - but remain conscious of God, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him.

This Surah is an invitation to the Divine Guidance and all the stories, incidents etc., revolve round this central theme. As this Surah has particularly been addressed to the Jews, many historical events have been cited from their own traditions to admonish and advise them that their own good lies in accepting the Guidance revealed to the Holy Prophet. They should, therefore, be the first to accept it because it was basically]y the same that was revealed to Prophet Moses (Allah's peace be upon him).
Surah 2 contains 9 different topics. Ayyats 191-193 are a small part of the topic covered in ayyats 153-251
In this portion practical measures have been prescribed to enable the Muslims to discharge the heavy responsibilities of the leadership that had been entrusted to them for the promulgation of Guidance. Salat, Fast, Zakat, Haj and Jihad have been prescribed for the moral training of the Ummat. The Believers have been exhorted to obey authority, to be just, to fulfill pledges, to observe treaties, to spend wealth etc., in the way of Allah. Laws, rules and regulations have been laid down for their organisation, cohesion and conduct of day-to-day life and for the solution of social, economic, political and international problems; on the other hand, drinking, gambling, lending money on interest etc., have been prohibited to keep the Ummat safe from disintegration. In between these, the basic articles of the Faith have been reiterated at suitable places, for these alone can enable and support one to stick to the Guidance.
For a more indepth study see: Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #2

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
One needs to read it in context for beginners. It is not a stand alone comment. For a minimum read it in the context of the surrounding ayyats

2:242 (Asad) In this way God makes clear unto you His messages, so that you might [learn to] use your reason.
2:243 (Asad) ART THOU NOT aware of those who forsook their homelands in their thousands for fear of death-whereupon God said unto them, "Die," and later brought them back to life Behold, God is indeed limitless in His bounty unto man -but most people are ungrateful.
2:244 (Asad) Fight, then, in God's cause, and know that God is all-hearing, all-knowing.
2:245 (Asad) Who is it that will offer up unto God a goodly loan, which He will amply repay, with manifold increase? For, God takes away, and He gives abundantly; and it is unto Him that you shall be brought back.
2:246 (Asad) Art thou not aware of those elders of the children of Israel , after the time of Moses, how they said unto a prophet of theirs, "Raise up a king for us, [and] we shall fight in God's cause"? Said he: "Would you, perchance, refrain from fighting if fighting is ordained for you?" They answered: "And why should we not fight in God's cause when we and our children have been driven from our homelands?" Yet, when fighting was ordained for them, they did turn back, save for a few of them; but God had full knowledge of the evildoers.
This is just a part of the discourse contained in ayyats 153-251 as the the above relating to 191-193
The next one is also
part of the same discourse.
Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Again read at least enough to get the context. No ayyat is a stand alone command.
2:214 (Asad) [But] do you think that you could enter para-dise without having suffered like those [believers] who passed away before you? [199] Misfortune and hardship befell them, and so shaken were they that the apostle, and the believers with him, would exclaim, "When will God's succour come?" [200] Oh, verily, God's succour is [always] near!
2:215 (Asad) THEY WILL ASK thee as to what they should spend on others. Say: "Whatever of your wealth you spend shall [first] be for your parents, and for the near of kin, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer; and whatever good you do, verily, God has full knowledge thereof."
2:216 (Asad) FIGHTING is ordained for you, even though it be hateful to you; but it may well be that you hate a thing the while it is good for you, and it may well be that you love a thing the while it is bad for you: and God knows, whereas you do not know.
2:217 (Asad) They will ask thee about fighting in the sacred month. Say: "Fighting in it is an awesome thing (grave transgression); but turning men away from the path of God and denying Him, and [turning them away from] the Inviolable House of Worship and expelling its people there from - [all this] is yet more awesome (greater transgression) in the sight of God, since oppression is more awesome (greater transgression) than killing." [Your enemies] will not cease to fight against you till they have turned you away from your faith, if they can. But if any of you should turn away from his faith and die as a denier of the truth - these it is whose works will go for nought in this world and in the life to come; and these it is who are destined for the fire, therein to abide.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Again it is not a stand alone comment
3:51 (Asad) "Verily, God is my Sustainer as well as your Sustainer; so worship Him [alone]: this is a straight way."
3:52 (Asad) And when Jesus became aware of their refusal to acknowledge the truth, he asked: "Who will be my helpers in God's cause?" The white-garbed ones replied: "We shall be [thy] helpers [in the cause] of God! We believe in God: and bear thou witness that we have surrendered ourselves unto Him!
3:53 (Asad) O our Sustainer! We believe in what Thou hast bestowed from on high, and we follow this Apostle; make us one, then, with all who bear witness [to the truth]!"
3:54 (Asad) And the unbelievers schemed [against Jesus]; but God brought their scheming to nought: for God is above all schemers.
3:55 (Asad) Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee [far] above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. In the end, unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ.
3:56 (Asad) "And as for those who are bent on denying the truth, I shall cause them to suffer a suffering severe in this world and in the life to come, and they shall have none to succour them;
3:57 (Asad) whereas unto those who attain to faith and do good works He will grant their reward in full: for God does not love evildoers."
3:58 (Asad) THIS MESSAGE do We convey unto thee, and this tiding full of wisdom:

Surah 3 consists of 5 different discourses

The second discourse (vv. 33-63) was revealed in 9 A. H. on the occasion of the visit of the deputation from the Christians of Najran.
This discourse is particularly addressed to the Christians and invites them to accept Islam. It clears Jesus and his mother not only from the stigma maliciously set upon them by the Jews, but also refutes the erroneous Christian creed of the Divinity of Jesus which had been formulated because of his miraculous birth. For this purpose the instances of John the Baptist to a barren woman and an extremely aged man and that of Adam without father and mother have been cited to show that there is nothing in the birth of Jesus without a father to entitle him to Divinity.

For a more indepth study see: Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #3