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Old 01-16-2015, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,347 posts, read 2,974,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePage View Post
Why continue to draw cartoons of Mohamed when Muslims say this way of doing things is offensive to their faith? I mean some crazy folks are just engaging in unnecessary provocation always making fun of other people's race or religion.
The vast majority of the first western world with easy internet access sees their religion and views mocked constantly. Brutal mocking of Christianity is seen constantly. Nobody does anything about it except complain, and maybe try to implant blasphemy laws...but there almost are never threats of violence on a wide scale.

I suspect part of the reason why some self-proclaimed Muslims seem so quick to violence is because they're more often from poorer, more conflict ridden nations. When all you have are the people around you and your religion...and someone harms that physically or verbally, it will hurt more than people who have more, I assume.

Just the same...it looks like the Christians deal with constant mockery and simply complain. Meanwhile the Muslims erupt in rage at the slightest mockery of their faith.

I think most people who make cartoons mocking Islam feel like they need to teach Muslims to calm down. They feel like Muslims need to be saturated with so much mockery that they'll get used to it and calm more when they see it in the future. They think it's a way that might result in short term harm, but more peace and tolerance by Muslims over the long run...at least that's the impression I've gotten from people who participate in organized mocking.

I don't know if it works or not.
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Old 01-16-2015, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,347 posts, read 2,974,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePage View Post
Sorry to let you know that you are referring to absolute freedom which is idealistic in a society that is civilized. Moreover a civilized society means a society where people are wise enough to understand that their freedom stops where other people's dignity starts.
If freedom were that "awesome thing" why don't you go in public and have sex like dogs in the United states? You might well end up being in an ambulance ! BTW is it legal for people to come on TV today in this country and negate the holocaust?
I think those who dream of absolute freedom like you are the ones who should rather find a planet other than Earth because absolute freedom does not exist here.
The part in bold is not a universal truth. It's a sensible variant of morality...but it's not the only sensible one. The American view of free speech is an equally sensible variant.

I am very much against censorship in the U.S. Why? Because we're used to a lack of censorship so should we create lots and lots of censorship laws good people would be jailed merely for practicing the traditions they always practiced.

Now, in other countries I'd be more understanding...like Pakistan. I still say Pakistan's blasphemy laws are barbaric, but I'd be understanding of some sort of blasphemy laws there. Removing them all would create the same type of harm creating blasphemy laws would accomplish in the United States. We'd have riots in both countries if the U.S. had several blasphemy laws created, or if Pakistan had all removed. It would be needlessly destructive.

There is no universal way societies should be run. I think we discovered that after we tried to "rescue" Iraq. It didn't work nearly as well as it did in Japan.

Therefore, it is less wrong to viciously mock in some places than others. Sometimes the wise understand their freedom stops where other people's dignity starts. Sometimes the wise understand that their freedom to swing their fist only stops when it touches someone else, and they have the right to say whatever they want.

The most wise, however, understand that there are no universal best way societies should be run.

Thank you for bringing up this topic. I hope I wasn't too incomprehensible. I have a way of ranting unintelligibly.
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Old 01-17-2015, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,113,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePage View Post
I do not see any right for any so-called free person to give himself that freedom to mock the core values of others when he is told that this way of doing thing is offensive.
That's fine. In the United States, you do not have to agree with the rights that our laws give us.

However, if you live in our country, you would be wise to understand and follow our laws. We have the right to burn an American flag, fly the Confederate flag, flush a Quran down the toilet, and put a crucifix in a jar of urine. If you try to physically stop us from doing these things, you will be put in jail.
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Old 01-17-2015, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,113,133 times
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Clintone, I think your last two posts make a lot of sense, at least to anyone who is listening.
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Old 01-18-2015, 09:45 AM
 
723 posts, read 651,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
The part in bold is not a universal truth. It's a sensible variant of morality...but it's not the only sensible one. The American view of free speech is an equally sensible variant.

I am very much against censorship in the U.S. Why? Because we're used to a lack of censorship so should we create lots and lots of censorship laws good people would be jailed merely for practicing the traditions they always practiced.

Now, in other countries I'd be more understanding...like Pakistan. I still say Pakistan's blasphemy laws are barbaric, but I'd be understanding of some sort of blasphemy laws there. Removing them all would create the same type of harm creating blasphemy laws would accomplish in the United States. We'd have riots in both countries if the U.S. had several blasphemy laws created, or if Pakistan had all removed. It would be needlessly destructive.

There is no universal way societies should be run. I think we discovered that after we tried to "rescue" Iraq. It didn't work nearly as well as it did in Japan.

Therefore, it is less wrong to viciously mock in some places than others. Sometimes the wise understand their freedom stops where other people's dignity starts. Sometimes the wise understand that their freedom to swing their fist only stops when it touches someone else, and they have the right to say whatever they want.

The most wise, however, understand that there are no universal best way societies should be run.

Thank you for bringing up this topic. I hope I wasn't too incomprehensible. I have a way of ranting unintelligibly.
Nothing is incomprehensible in what you said as it is just a tiny corollary of the laws of relativity in which for instance time intervals and lengths of objects dilate depending on which referential you are in. I mean it is obvious to see humans judgements' are based on some frame of ( cultural ) background.
Moreover Pascal Blaise a French theologian, philosopher, mathematician, physicist, Scientist (1623–1662) stated that "vérité en deçà des Pyrénnées ,erreur au delà", meaning what is truthful and valuable to one community can be seen as an horrendous error or even something worthless to another community depending on which side of the Pyrennees mountains you are.

[ Many of Blaise Pascal's philosophical quotes are studied in High school philosophy dissertations classes. Read more @ Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662) ]

This been said, the questions as to whether absolute Freedom of speech exists or whether Freedom of speech excludes Wisdom ( Common sense) remain.
And to attempt an answer to those questions it would be useful to dig more into what Wisdom is.
Reference Wisdom (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)








Last edited by ThePage; 01-18-2015 at 10:35 AM..
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Old 01-18-2015, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,367 posts, read 12,124,717 times
Reputation: 16603
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePage View Post
Why continue to draw cartoons of Mohamed when Muslims say this
way of doing things is offensive to their faith?
I mean some crazy folks are just engaging in unnecessary provocation
always making fun of other people's race or religion.

E
XACTLY!!!
It is juvenile and egotistical...aka, not very smart or kind or respectful.
Mohammed was an ok guy...just because some nutty followers go around killing people,
ya don't make fun of their worshipped leader.

In fact that is when you STOP making fun of their leader.
In fact, anyone that carries automatic weapons is off limits, period, to make fun of...
it has nothing to do with free speech it has to do with wisdom.

Edit: I swear I wrote this before I read the word 'wisdom' used so much in the previous post!
I do that ...post and read later! Ha!
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Old 01-18-2015, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,113,133 times
Reputation: 1399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
ya don't make fun of their worshipped leader.
In the United States, what should be done with a person who makes fun of a god or Jesus or Muhammad?

Should they be punished in any way?
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Old 01-18-2015, 03:33 PM
 
1,728 posts, read 1,331,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
In the United States, what should be done with a person who makes fun of a god or Jesus or Muhammad?

Should they be punished in any way?
I'm sure some people would love that. We can start with not allowing anyone to offend religious figures, then we can move on to not allowing any kind of criticism of the government, then...

Those people who think it would be so much better if we had these laws can move to a country that does. I am sure they would love it there.
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Old 01-18-2015, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,367 posts, read 12,124,717 times
Reputation: 16603
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
In the United States, what should be done with a
person who makes fun of a god or Jesus or Muhammad?
Should they be punished in any way?
Punished? No, someone should nudge them and say, "Shhh, not cool."
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Old 01-18-2015, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Type 0.7 Kardashev
10,577 posts, read 7,274,031 times
Reputation: 37474
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePage View Post
Why continue to draw cartoons of Mohamed when Muslims say this way of doing things is offensive to their faith? I mean some crazy folks are just engaging in unnecessary provocation always making fun of other people's race or religion.
Why, when faced with...

*People who draw cartoons, and
*People who slaughter cartoonists

...would anyone focus on the actions of the cartoonists and not the mass-murderers?

Everything is the subject of satire. When are people going to get over the child-like attitude that somehow religion is special and above this sort of criticism?
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