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Old 03-04-2015, 06:21 AM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 351,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Their country, their law. Your state, your law. How many people were executed in Texas in 2014? Texas Law sounds great
to each his own huh? that worked quite well 1000 years ago. but this is the modern world where everything is integrated. barbaric laws will no longer be tolerated, wherever you are. the world wont stand for it.

and thats how it should be.


also its not about how many are killed, its about what they were killed for.
in saudi arabia converting to another religion will get you beheaded. is that right? thats the sort of thing muslims should be protesting.
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Old 03-08-2015, 10:59 AM
 
Location: in the mountains
1,372 posts, read 805,890 times
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That doesn't prove ANYTHING about your outrageous claim that Muslims fought in the Revolutionary War! Didn't you notice Hindus were also mentioned? But you didn't say they fought in the war now did you?
Moderator cut: Personal attack removed .

Moderator cut: Insults removed :

ALL that passage says is that the founding fathers wanted to protect the religious rights of different faiths, and then they listed some of the faiths.

It also says that the slaves were imported from an Islamic part of Africa, which is not true for the majority of the slaves who came from Sub-Saharan West Africa. The ones from Ethiopia were not Islamic, they were Christian and Rastafari.

MUSLIMS SOLD BLACK PEOPLE INTO SLAVERY. That is why they mention Islamic parts of Africa. The Muslims were the slave dealers. Not in all cases, but in some, as there were also tribal warlords who sold off their enemy tribespeople who were Africans to slave ships. Those people practiced their indigenous West African religions such as Yoruba, which morphed into Voodoo and Santeria.

There is no historically antebellum Islamic black population in our country, and it's obvious why. They were sold into slavery by Muslims, but they themselves were not Muslims.

Last edited by mensaguy; 03-08-2015 at 04:21 PM.. Reason: Trying to keep the forum civil.
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Old 03-08-2015, 12:58 PM
 
Location: in the mountains
1,372 posts, read 805,890 times
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Slavery practiced by Muslims:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zM_MzkLKPY

The Role of Islam in African Slavery
Quote:
Black Africans were transported to the Islamic empire across the Sahara to Morocco and Tunisia from West Africa, from Chad to Libya, along the Nile from East Africa, and up the coast of East Africa to the Persian Gulf. This trade had been well entrenched for over 600 years before Europeans arrived, and had driven the rapid expansion of Islam across North Africa.
By the time of the Ottoman Empire, the majority of slaves were obtained by raiding in Africa. Russian expansion had put an end to the source of "exceptionally beautiful" female and "brave" male slaves from the Caucasians -- the women were highly prised in the harem, the men in the military. The great trade networks across north Africa were as much to do with the safe transportation of slaves as other goods. An analysis of prices at various slave markets shows that eunuchs fetched higher prices than other males, encouraging the castration of slaves before export.
Documentation suggests that slaves throughout Islamic world were mainly used for menial domestic and commercial purposes. Eunuchs were especially prised for bodyguards and confidential servants; women as concubines and menials. A Muslim slave owner was entitled by law to use slaves for sexual pleasure.


In The Name Of Allah - Islam & African Slave Trade

10 Facts About The Arab Enslavement Of Black People Not Taught In Schools - Atlanta Blackstar
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Old 03-08-2015, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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I am not too certain what slavery has to do with the History of Muslims in the USA.

I do admit it is difficult to identify the early Muslims in America. While Most Arabs are Muslim, the vast majority of Muslims are not Arab and many do not take on Arab names. the Lipkas for example while the majority being Muslim, usually have Lithuanian, Polish or Russian names.


I find there are quite a few Native American Muslims while many are recent converts I do sometimes find some who claim their family was Muslim before Columbus arrived. For instance my wife is Native American (Northern Cheyenne), but she does not know how far back her family has been Muslim

Some food for thought
Muslim Legacy in Early Americas - W. Africans, Moors and Amerindians
and one that discredits that claim
History News Network | Did Muslims Visit America Before Columbus?

Other claims
CHEROKEE NATIVE INDIAN MUSLIMS

» Blog Archive » Islam in America I: The American Indian
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Old 03-08-2015, 07:33 PM
 
Location: in the mountains
1,372 posts, read 805,890 times
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It has to do with how Muslims enabled the African slave trade, as I clearly said.

Your "Muslim Ancestor" minority group that converted to Roman Catholicism are not Muslim anymore, they have not been Muslim for generations. They are white Roman Catholic people.

The Cherokee historically intermarried with escaped slaves and immigrants, they were one of the few tribes that actively adapted to the colonial lifestile, and as a whole they are majority Christian. THEY are the ones who fought in the revolutionary war, and who have played a large part in American history, along with many other Native American tribes.

You will need to cite a NATIVE AMERICAN website for your cultural appropriation. You cannot claim the Cherokee converted to Islam if you have no reliable source, other than an obviously Muslim website. Once again it appears you have an agenda to normalize Islam as a secret ubiquitous religion that has always been present in America. I am Native American as well and I have never heard of any Muslim Natives.

I have never heard anything about Muslims existing in America pre-Columbus. The Vikings possibly were in Greenland, and Easter Island and the coast of South and Central America may have been visited by Polynesians.

Once again, I find you are misinterpreting text to suit your own agenda. The text from this article, which YOU CITED, clearly states that Arabic writing was found. Arabic writing has existed before Islam was invented, so there is no way to infer that mysterious Arabic writing found in California petroglyphs means that Muslims were converting Native Americans to Islam in pre-Columbus America. That is preposterous and again, you are reaching trying to create a historical Muslim history in the Americas, when there has only been a very recent Muslim presence here.

Muslim Legacy in Early Americas - W. Africans, Moors and Amerindians
Quote:
Fell points out that the southwest's Pima people possessed a vocabulary which contained words of Arabic origin. The presence of such words among the Pima is compounded by the existence of Islamic petrogyphs in places like California. Fell informs us that in Inyo county, California, there exists an early American petrogyph (rock carving) which stated in Arabic: "Yasus ben Maria" ("Jesus, Son of Mary"), a phrase commonly found within the surahs of the Holy Qur'an. Fell is convinced that this glyph is many centuries older than the U.S.
The rest of the article is weak in proving Muslims were here. It says an artifact found in Mexico depicts a hat that looks similar to a Muslim hat. Absolutely ridiculous, and quite a reach. As if the Mexicans couldn't figure out how to make a hat on their own, they needed Moors to mysteriously beam down in a space ship and tell them, and then leave again, right?
Quote:
Although German art historian and collector Alexander Von Wuthenau argues that the ancient and early Americas were filled with an international melange of peoples from Africa, Asia and Europe, his artifactual evidence reveals that Islamic peoples were clearly a prominent group within it. In his classic work, Unexpected Faces in Ancient America (1975), Von Wuthenau specifically identifies a group of carved heads as "Moorish-looking." Found within Mexico, such heads are dated between 300 - 900 C.E. and another between 900 -1500 C.E. (common era). One such artifact of the "classic" (300 - 900 C.E.) is described by Von Wuthenau as "an old man with hat." Such artifacts are worth a thousand words and the photograph of the "old man" artifact clearly resembles that of an old man wearing a Fez.
I also wanted to address this:
Quote:
The presence of the naja among the dineh (a.k.a. "Navjo") is intriguing given the other evidence of Islamic contacts with the early American west. The naja is a crescent moon symbol found among the dineh that is used in such things as decoration and jewelry. While it is indeed possible that the symbol was indigenous to the dineh, a number of Smithsonian scholars apparently think that the symbol: "spread from Moslem North Africa to Spain, then to Mexico, then to the Navajo" (The Native Americans (1991) edited by Colin Taylor). Although the inference of the Smithsonian published text seems to be that the Spaniards brought the naja, it seems very odd to me that the crucifix-centered Catholic Spaniards would introduce such a symbol. After all, the customarily dogmatic Catholic Spaniards would have been introducing a religious symbol which represented the spiritual motif of their nemesis.
Completely derogatory in tone towards the Natives. The Navajo were perfectly able to look up in the sky and see a crescent moon, in order to create it as a symbol in their own culture. To say that they were incapable of doing this on their own, and that the crescent moon symbol had to have been taught to them by outsiders, is denigrating to them and their culture. A four year old child can draw a crescent moon symbol. Islam does not have a monopoly on it. The article you cited is insulting to Natives and is once again culturally insensitive.

Quote:
Van Sertima identifies l2th and l3th century Chinese documents which spoke of "Arab" Muslim trade extending beyond the Atlantic coast of west Africa. Among the items of evidence which Van Sertima unveils is the presence of African Muslim surnames among American "Indian" peoples. Quoting a French linguist, Van Sertima points out that Ges, Zamoras, Marabitine, and Marabios are a few of the names with clear transcontinental links. Of particular interest to me, however, are the names "Marabitine" and "Marabios" which I noted relate to "Marabout"
This article provides no information about which tribes have these alleged Arabic surnames, however, have a few words that are similar to the Arabic langauge does not mean Native Americans were Muslim.

It's difficult to argue with someone who makes outrageous statements that are clearly lies, and then when asked for sources, doesn't produce anything that makes any sense. You haven't proven your original assertion that Muslims fought in the Revolutionary war. You then tried to pretend that many Native Americans were actually Muslim, by citing a Muslim website. You also stated you have no idea what Black Slavery has to do with Islam and America. Which obviously, Muslim slave traders captured and sold blacks into the Atlantic slave trade, thus enabling blacks to become slaves in the Americas. The slaves were Christian blacks, Rastafari, Yoruba and other West African religions that have had a significant impact on America's cultural life. UNLIKE ISLAM.

Those peoples and cultures that I named: Christian blacks, Rastafari, Yoruba people, various European Christian sects and Native Americans were the people who instrumental in early American history, and who have contributed so much to what our culture is today.
Muslim presence did not enter America until after 1967 when the immigration laws were changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am not too certain what slavery has to do with the History of Muslims in the USA.

I do admit it is difficult to identify the early Muslims in America. While Most Arabs are Muslim, the vast majority of Muslims are not Arab and many do not take on Arab names. the Lipkas for example while the majority being Muslim, usually have Lithuanian, Polish or Russian names.


I find there are quite a few Native American Muslims while many are recent converts I do sometimes find some who claim their family was Muslim before Columbus arrived. For instance my wife is Native American (Northern Cheyenne), but she does not know how far back her family has been Muslim

Some food for thought
Muslim Legacy in Early Americas - W. Africans, Moors and Amerindians
and one that discredits that claim
History News Network | Did Muslims Visit America Before Columbus?

Other claims
CHEROKEE NATIVE INDIAN MUSLIMS

» Blog Archive » Islam in America I: The American Indian

Last edited by Mangokiwi; 03-08-2015 at 07:51 PM..
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Old 03-08-2015, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangokiwi View Post
Muslim presence did not enter America until after 1967 when the immigration laws were changed.
On July 4, 1930, the long awaited “Saviour” of the Black man and woman, Master W. Fard Muhammad, appeared in this city. He announced and preached that God is One, and it is now time for Blacks to return to the religion of their ancestors, Islam. News spread all over the city of Detroit of the preachings of this great man from the East. Elijah Poole’s wife first learned of the Temple of Islam and wanted to attend to see what the commotion was all about, but instead, her husband advised her that he would go and see for himself.
Hon. Elijah Muhammad | The Nation of Islam Official Website |

The Mother Mosque of America, once known as The Rose of Fraternity Lodge, in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, is the first permanent structure to be built specifically to serve as a mosque in the United States. Construction was completed on February 15, 1934. This small structure served as a place of worship for Muslims for nearly forty years. When a larger local mosque, the Islamic Center of Cedar Rapids, was built in 1971, the building was sold. Successive owners over the next twenty years allowed the building to fall in to disrepair.
The Mother Mosque Of America: The Dream of the Mother Mosque of America

The mosque was built around 1929 by Syrian-Lebanese immigrants near the tiny town of Ross, according to historians. (Some mosques were established earlier in the United States, but they were in existing buildings.)
Mosques of America: Ross, North Dakota | IIP Digital

1. Mosques are new to this country.

Mosques have been here since the colonial era. A mosque, or masjid, is literally any place where Muslims make salat, the prayer performed in the direction of Mecca; it needn't be a building. One of the first mosques in North American history was on Kent Island, Md.: Between 1731 and 1733, African American Muslim slave and Islamic scholar Job Ben Solomon, a cattle driver, would regularly steal away to the woods there for his prayers -- in spite of a white boy who threw dirt on him as he made his prostrations.
Five myths about mosques in America

Anthony Janszoon van Salee (1607–1676) was the son of Jan Janszoon, a Dutch pirate who led the Republic of Salé, a pirate state in modern Morocco. He was an original settler of and prominent landholder, merchant, and creditor in New Netherlands. Van Salee may have been the first Muslim in the New World.[2][3][4] A Qur'an said to have belonged to him was eventually auctioned in the following centuries,[2] having passed through a descendant, Robert Bayles, a one-time President of The Market and Fulton National Bank of New York
Anthony Janszoon van Salee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ID: I8403
Name: Anthony Janszen Van Salee 1 2
Sex: M
Reference Number: 11336
Birth: 1607 in Sale, Morocco
Immigration: BET 1634 AND 1637 to New Netherlands 3
Death: MAR 1676 in New York, New York
Immigration: ABT 1630 Haarlem to New Amsterdam 4
RootsWeb's WorldConnect Project: Gamber, Bumgarner, Armstrong, Day and related New England, NY, VA and PA pioneers
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Old 05-05-2015, 04:33 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,111,643 times
Reputation: 1399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Protesters, upset that a Muslim group was holding a conference at a Texas conference center owned by the local school district, showed up last night waving flags and signs telling attendees, “Go home and take Obama with you.”
From what I can tell, the people who demonstrated against the Muslims did not perform any violent acts.

However, when people gathered a few days ago to have a harmless contest to determine who could draw the best cartoon of Muhammad, a couple Muslims drove up and started firing automatic weapons. Fortunately, they were poor shots and they were killed.

Does this demonstrate which religions are more tolerant and peaceful and which religion is more dogmatic and more violent?
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Old 05-06-2015, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,342 posts, read 2,971,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
From what I can tell, the people who demonstrated against the Muslims did not perform any violent acts.

However, when people gathered a few days ago to have a harmless contest to determine who could draw the best cartoon of Muhammad, a couple Muslims drove up and started firing automatic weapons. Fortunately, they were poor shots and they were killed.

Does this demonstrate which religions are more tolerant and peaceful and which religion is more dogmatic and more violent?
Texas Muslims were quite mature about this:

No one protested when Pamela Geller’s cartoon contest attracted about 200 people to suburban Dallas Sunday, even though some Muslims in Texas were already feeling aggrieved and fearful over growing anti-Islamic sentiment in the state.
Then, two men with attack rifles drove in from Arizona and opened fire on officers guarding the conference center in Garland. Both were shot dead, an officer was shot in the leg, and from the other side of the world, the Islamic State group made an unproven claim of responsibility.
“This is the exposure that they wanted and this is the divisiveness that they wanted to bring,” said Omar Suleiman, resident scholar at the Valley Ranch Islamic Center in Irving, a Dallas suburb with a sizable Islamic community.
“We condemn obviously the attack in the strongest terms, and we are glad that the police officer is OK,” Suleiman added. “This is what extremists on both sides want: whether it’s Geller or whether it’s ISIS. They want this all-out war. That’s not what we’re about.”
Texas Muslims on edge amid protests, contest attack - WTOP
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Old 05-06-2015, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,111,643 times
Reputation: 1399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
Texas Muslims were quite mature about this:

“We condemn obviously the attack in the strongest terms, and we are glad that the police officer is OK,” Suleiman added. “This is what extremists on both sides want: whether it’s Geller or whether it’s ISIS. They want this all-out war. That’s not what we’re about.”
That is a very odd thing to say.

Based on their actions in the U.S. and Europe, we all believe that the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria wants all-out war, but do you think Mr. Suleiman has any evidence that Ms. Gellar wants all-out war?
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Old 05-06-2015, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,342 posts, read 2,971,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
That is a very odd thing to say.

Based on their actions in the U.S. and Europe, we all believe that the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria wants all-out war, but do you think Mr. Suleiman has any evidence that Ms. Gellar wants all-out war?
No...at least if by all-out-war we're talking about the type Isis engages in.

The Southern Poverty Law Center describes her as an extremist though:

Geller has mingled comfortably with European racists and fascists, spoken favorably of South African racists, defended Serbian war criminal Radovan Karadzic and denied the existence of Serbian concentration camps
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/profiles/pamela-geller

In February 2011, she spoke favorably of Soviet leader Josef Stalin's forced relocation and genocide of Chechen Muslims after World War II, arguing – wrongly – that they were allied with Adolf Hitler. Historians say Chechens were fighting to preserve their own freedom and culture.
Geller's incendiary rhetoric and readiness to deny civil freedoms and the presumption of innocence to Muslims hasn't prevented her from gaining a measure of mainstream acceptability. In late March 2011, she was even invited by the Alaska House of Representatives to testify on a proposed anti-Shariah bill.
Pamela Geller | Southern Poverty Law Center

Geller was one of several prominent anti-Muslim activists cited by the Norwegian terrorist Anders Breivik in the manifesto he posted online hours before killing 77 of his countrymen, mostly teenagers, at a left-wing youth camp in August 2011. In the wake of the attack, Geller downplayed the influence of her views on Breivik, making much of the fact that his screed had only mentioned her by name once. This conveniently ignored the manifesto’s dozen citations of her blog and 64 mentions of her SIOA partner, Robert Spencer. At the same time, Geller couldn’t help displaying some sympathy for Breivik’s actions against the young multiculturalists. “Breivik,” she wrote, “was targeting the future leaders of the party responsible for flooding Norway with Muslims.”
Pamela Geller | Southern Poverty Law Center



I was impressed that the residents of the heavily Muslim area near the contest were smart enough not to protest it though. That's the type of behavior I view as ideal. They were smart. Evidently they were able to figure out protesting would result only in more of a bad type of attention for them.

We have a huge number of people who lived right next to the event organized by a woman who is about as verbally aggressive towards Muslims as you can be...and there were no swarming, angry masses of Muslims all around the contest. The angry masses are what I would have expected. What happened was more ideal. It doesn't seem like the Muslims made much of a peep, much less swarmed over the contest in angry (though nonviolent) mobs.

Pamela Gellar is a woman who sponsored that ad campaign a little while back with the signs that said "Killing Jews is worship that draws us closer to Allah" by the way.

Gellar's not comparable to Isis...but I see her as within that category of people it seems non-terrible to compare to Hitler or Isis or some other truly horrible group just because she seems she might become dangerous if given too much power. Suleiman probably won't care about improper comparisons nearly so much as denouncing the woman who probably would make life less pleasant for people he knows if she had her way, and that's just human.

It's disturbing that within the United States people have to be afraid of drawing cartoons, but I am nonetheless impressed by the maturity of the Muslims in Texas.
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