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Old 02-26-2015, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Texas
115 posts, read 172,892 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The only eye witness accounts of how Muhammad(saaws) lived are the verified Ahadith.

Can you show a VERIFIABLE source for your accusations?
None of the Hadiths, nor the Quran can be VERIFIED.

The people who wrote them have been dead for over a thousand years.

 
Old 02-26-2015, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forum Registration View Post
None of the Hadiths, nor the Quran can be VERIFIED.

The people who wrote them have been dead for over a thousand years.
Then what is the source for the accusations?
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Old 02-28-2015, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Texas
115 posts, read 172,892 times
Reputation: 66
Pedophile?

Sahih Bukhari
Quote:
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
How do we know that it was Ibn Hajar who made the above (bolded) doll-playing exegesis? We know this by the reference to Fateh-al-Bari and also due to the fact that when we look at other translations of Bukhari 8:73:151, the same message is conveyed.

Alternative Translations

One
Quote:
On the authority of Aisha (RA), who said: I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (SAW). And I had girl-friends (playmates) who played along with me. They would hide (feeling shy) from him (SAW) whenever he entered. But, he (SAW) would send for them to join me and they would play with me. (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim)
Little Girls Playing With Dolls
The Islamic Ruling Concerning Tasweer, Abu Muhammad Abdur-Ra'uf Shakir
The translator then provides some discussion on translations of various versions of this hadith before he follows up with Ibn Hajar and Fath-al-Bari:

Quote:
Al-Haafidh Ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baaree (Fath al-Baaree, no. 6130, Kitaab: al-Adab, Baab: al-Inbisaat ilaa an-Naas): This Hadith has been used as a proof for the permissibility of possessing (suwar - of) dolls and toys for the purpose of the little girls playing with them. This has been especially exempted from the general prohibition of possession of images (suwar).
Little Girls Playing With Dolls
The Islamic Ruling Concerning Tasweer, Abu Muhammad Abdur-Ra'uf Shakir
Two
Quote:
But if these images and dolls are toys for children, the Sunnah indicates that they are permissible. In al-Saheehayn it is narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and I had female friends who would play with me…” al-Bukhaari, 6130; Muslim, 2440. Ibn Hajar said: This hadeeth indicates that it is permissible to have images of girls (i.e., dolls) and toys for girls to play with. This is an exception from the general meaning of the prohibition on having images. This was stated by ‘Iyaad and was narrated from the majority. They permitted the sale of dolls to girls so as to teach them from a young age how to take care of their homes and children. Ibn Hibbaan stated that it is permissible for young girls to play with toys…
He is asking about dolls and three-dimensional toys, and whether that affects his fast
Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 49844
Three
Quote:
Aaishah said, “I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (pbuh), and my girlfriends used to play along with me. Whenever, Allaah's Messenger (pbuh) would enter, they would hide from him. So he called them to play with me.” In the classical commentary on Saheeh al-Bukhaare entitled Fat-h al-Baaree, Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalaanee wrote the following: “This hadeeth is used as evidence for the permissibility of making dolls and toys with human and animal forms for the purpose of girls playing with them. This category has been specifically excluded from the general prohibition against making images. ‘Iyaad stated this to be categorically so and related that it was the position of the majority of scholars. He further related that they permitted the selling of toys for girls in order to train them from their youth in their household affairs and in dealing with their children…”
Fatwa on the use of Images for children (p.1)
BilalPhilips.com
Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad consummated the marriage

Quote:
“My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me.”
Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, p. 131
This hadith suggests that Muhammad had sex with Aisha in her house on her wedding day. However, was this event really on her wedding day? This is proven by the Sahih Bukhari hadith below. Note the similarity in accounts, although the Bukhari 5:58:234 hadith is more expansive on the fact that the events took place on Aisha’s wedding day:

Quote:
Narrated Aisha: "The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Alright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
Sahih Bukhari 5:58:234
Muhammad even wanted to marry a crawling baby-girl.

Let us read what ibn Ishaq, the most authentic biographer of Muhammad wrote about this.

Quote:
(Suhayli, ii.79: In the riwaya of Yunus I. I recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu’l–Fadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, ‘If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.’ But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. ‘Abdu’l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubaba… (ibn Ishaq, 2001, p. 311).
Quote:
Musnad Ahmad
Muhammad saw Um Habiba the daughter of Abbas while she was fatim (age of nursing) and he said, "If she grows up while I am still alive, I will marry her." (Musnad Ahmad, Number 25636)
 
Old 02-28-2015, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forum Registration View Post
Pedophile?

Sahih Bukhari
How do we know that it was Ibn Hajar who made the above (bolded) doll-playing exegesis? We know this by the reference to Fateh-al-Bari and also due to the fact that when we look at other translations of Bukhari 8:73:151, the same message is conveyed.

Alternative Translations

One
The translator then provides some discussion on translations of various versions of this hadith before he follows up with Ibn Hajar and Fath-al-Bari:

Two
Three
Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad consummated the marriage

This hadith suggests that Muhammad had sex with Aisha in her house on her wedding day. However, was this event really on her wedding day? This is proven by the Sahih Bukhari hadith below. Note the similarity in accounts, although the Bukhari 5:58:234 hadith is more expansive on the fact that the events took place on Aisha’s wedding day:

Muhammad even wanted to marry a crawling baby-girl.

Let us read what ibn Ishaq, the most authentic biographer of Muhammad wrote about this.
Did you not in your previous post say:

Quote:
None of the Hadiths, nor the Quran can be VERIFIED.

The people who wrote them have been dead for over a thousand years.
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Old 02-28-2015, 09:44 PM
 
Location: in the mountains
1,372 posts, read 806,705 times
Reputation: 2058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The prohibition is not against gays. It is that any form of sexual contact is permitted only between those who have signed a valid Nikkah. A Nikkah can only be signed between a male and female.
There's no age requirement for signing a Nikkah, correct?
 
Old 02-28-2015, 09:46 PM
 
Location: in the mountains
1,372 posts, read 806,705 times
Reputation: 2058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annuvin View Post
This is the most ridiculous post I have ever read on this forum, bar none.

However, if we are going to discuss perversion and religion, it should be noted that the Catholic church not only allowed homosexual pedophiles to continue to prey on young church members, but they covered up such transgressions and created a culture where this kind of behaviour was acceptable.

Judging by the sheer numbers of claims being made, I would think the 3000 pedophile number to be rather conservative. IMO, the entire organization should be taken down under federal RICO statutes.

Catholic Church sexual abuse cases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information when talking about religion. Also, you are in the Islam forum. If you want to talk about Catholicism, please go to the Christianity forum.
 
Old 02-28-2015, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangokiwi View Post
There's no age requirement for signing a Nikkah, correct?
what is required is the person must be sexually mature, financially stable and capable of maintaining a house.. They must also be mature enough to understand the Nikkah, know their rights as to what they can demand (ie type of house, specific furnishings etc) a girl must also be capable of managing the household budget as the running of and owning the house is part of her benefits and responsibilities.
each of Muhammad(saaws) wives had her own house.
I often wondered how a 9 year old would have been able to maintain a house, do the grocery shopping prepare meals etc.
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Old 02-28-2015, 10:38 PM
 
Location: LA, CA/ In This Time and Place
5,433 posts, read 3,506,314 times
Reputation: 5063
Oh yes we know a person who lived 1400 years ago was in fact gay. Historians and scientists have ample truth!

Yep Muhammed was gay. Next we have to figure how many women Jesus nailed(no pun) in his lifetime.
 
Old 03-01-2015, 10:53 AM
 
Location: in the mountains
1,372 posts, read 806,705 times
Reputation: 2058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
what is required is the person must be sexually mature, financially stable and capable of maintaining a house.. They must also be mature enough to understand the Nikkah, know their rights as to what they can demand (ie type of house, specific furnishings etc) a girl must also be capable of managing the household budget as the running of and owning the house is part of her benefits and responsibilities.
each of Muhammad(saaws) wives had her own house.
I often wondered how a 9 year old would have been able to maintain a house, do the grocery shopping prepare meals etc.
So, yes, underage children are permitted to marry in Islam, as long as 2 older men decide that they want it to happen. OK, sounds like a great system is in place to protect the health and well being of young children! (sarcasm)

I'm sure she would have been able to cook and clean, at 9 years old. I was making sandwiches for myself at the age of 5. I've been doing that kind of stuff around the house since I was that age as well.
Aisha living in the 9th century, would not have had as many things to take care of in the household, as the household was likely a tent in the desert. Not really much to take care of there.

Also, Mohammad had at least one other wife at the time,
Quote:
Khadija died in December of 619 AD. That is two years before Hijra. At that time the Prophet was 51-years-old. So in the same year that Khadija died the prophet married Ayesha and took her to his home 3 years later, i.e. one year after Hijra. But until she grow up he married Umm Salama.
Umm Salama would have been doing the market shopping no doubt, leaving Aisha to "play" with Mohammad.

I've lived in South America and there are young kids, 6-8 years old, out there farming in the fields , herding 2-ton giant bulls around, and yes shopping in the local village market.
Only difference with those kids is they don't get "married" until they're at least 15-16, and the teenage boys are usually the same age or a few years older.

Unlike the Muslims I have seen here in the DC area, where I have seen 40-45 year old men walking around with wives who looked to be no older than 16. I have visited a mosque and seen girls who were 17 years old that already had children (they were married to older men, who, like you said, were required to demonstrate they had a house and money before they could afford a wife).

There is no excuse for this disgusting pedophile behavior. I condemn anyone who is a part of this repugnant and backwards "religion".

This is a good summation:
Ayesha the child wife of the Prophet
Quote:
No sane person would be aroused by a 9-year-old child. Decent people wince at the thought of this shameful act. Yet some Muslims deny them. The question is why so many followers of Muhammad would fabricate so many false hadithes about the age of Ayisha, which incidentally confirm each other?

I can tell you why people would attribute false miracles to their prophet. Babis believe that Bab started to praise God as soon as he was born. There is a Hadith like that also about Muhammad. Christians believe the birth of the Christ was miraculous and the Jews believe Moses opened a dry passageway through the Red Sea. Believers love to hear these stories. It confirms their faith. There are many absurd miracles attributed to Muhammad in the hadiths, despite the fact that he denied being able to perform any miracles. But why should anyone fabricate a lie about the age of Ayisha that would portray his Prophet as a pedophile?
Even if the Hadiths are controversial, why would they see the need to lie about Aisha being 6 years old? Probably because she was actually that age.
 
Old 03-01-2015, 11:08 AM
 
Location: in the mountains
1,372 posts, read 806,705 times
Reputation: 2058
Even if Aisha had had her period at age 9, the size difference here is disturbing. A 9 year old girl is going to look like a 9 year old girl, not like a woman. A man having sex with a 9 year old girl is not having sex with a woman, just because she has menstruated. Her body is still small and child like. As is her mind.

The Quran does not say that a man has to wait until a girl has had her menses before he has sex with her:
Quote:
[SIZE=2]the Quran, the Hadith, and Muslim scholar’s writings state that a Muslim husband can engage in sex with a child-bride before she has her first menses. Further, Muhammad actually did just this – he had intercourse with Aisha prior to her first menses![/SIZE]
Muhammad, Aisha, Islam, and Child Brides


Aisha's Age of Consummation - WikiIslam


That "household" in the picture is a tent. It's not a house that is going to need to be cleaned. It was probably full of sand all the time. Making a fire and making tea over the fire isn't hard to do, I've done it since I was a kid at summer camp. It doesn't mean I was ready to marry a 54 year old man, just because I could do those simple things!

Islam allows for child brides.


Muslim clerics resist Pakistan
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