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Old 02-28-2015, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Why is that many people think that Islam has only one path, yet have amnesia to the fact that Christianity has over 50 paths.
Islam has branches as Christianity does.
Because then it's easier to lump everyone of the group into a "them", to which you can then assign characteristics that apply to all the thems, after which you can then declare that since those thems are all like this and like that, it's OK to kill them.
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Old 02-28-2015, 08:55 PM
 
Location: in the mountains
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
What I find really troubling is that it is a theocracy married to totalitarian thinking. It's like a religious/political laser shooting through current civilization killing in its path. Only what they believe lives. Fact is it is 'their' way and no ther can be countenanced. 'Apostates' must be destroyed.

Recently there has been discussion that other approaches taking into account non- violent means should be implemented against the radical Islamic extremists. Surely it is rational thought however the question is are the extremists capable , considering their adherence to a different interpretation of Islam than the mainstream, of also being 'rational'? From the looks of it, no. They are only rational within themselves and their 'caliphate'. Surely tough to have a dialogue under the circumstances. And also even mainstream Muslims have a very difficult time communicating with them. Right now we have almost an intractable problem that perhaps can only solved by war. We may have tough choices to make shortly.
ISIS seems hell bent on destruction of all modern civilization and re-converting everyone back to 9th century Islamic life.

I see a lot of people yelling that ISIS are not true Muslims, but ISIS themselves believe themselves to be the most pure and true Muslims there are on the planet. We then see ISIS destroy things, kill, rape, and steal.

If ISIS only wanted to kill, rape, steal, and destroy, for power and glory, they could have done those things without using religion at all. There is no need for religion, to do those things. The fact that they use religion shows their level of brainwashing by that religion.

ISIS is founded and mainly run by men who were born and raised in Muslim countries. What does that tell a person about Islam? It seems very obvious that Islam is faulty because it occasionally hemorrhages into terrorism and war. Islam is like a cancer on this planet, we would be so much better without it. In this modern day, it doesn't contribute anything positive to the planet except murderous idiots, and misogynists who worship a giant black box in the desert.
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Old 02-28-2015, 08:56 PM
 
Location: in the mountains
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Because then it's easier to lump everyone of the group into a "them", to which you can then assign characteristics that apply to all the thems, after which you can then declare that since those thems are all like this and like that, it's OK to kill them.
Like what ISIS does, when they kill infidels? Let's stay on topic here, we're talking about ISIS in this thread.
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Old 02-28-2015, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangokiwi View Post
Like what ISIS does, when they kill infidels? Let's stay on topic here, we're talking about ISIS in this thread.
however ISIS does not speak for most of the world's Muslims. There are an extimated 20,000 to 31,500 members in ISIS at least 15,000 are foreigners. Many of which seem to have no actual Islamic back ground

ISIS can 'muster' between 20,000 and 31,500 fighters, CIA says - CNN.com

Quote:
“Very often we see radicals decide they want to become a terrorist turn away at the last minute, but [Poulin’s] message hit the nail on the head, which is to say there is a road for everyone. It makes radicalization and recruitment much easier,” Horgan said. “It is an equal opportunity organization. It has everything from the sadistic psychopath to the humanitarian to the idealistic driven.”

As far as foreign fighters are concerned, Horgan said, they are driven to join ISIS by the need to “belong to something special.”

“They want to find something meaningful for their life,” he said. “Some are thrill seeking, some are seeking redemption.”
Why Do People Join ISIS? The Psychology Of A Terrorist

Quote:
The devil makes work for idle hands – and it’s striking how much support Jihad finds among idle Westerners. According to one poll, more people in France support Isil than people in Gaza do and, according to the Daily Beast, identification with fundamentalism is fuelled by middle-class ennui. In a fascinating portrait of Aqsa Mahmood, a public school girl who is believed to have volunteered to become a Jihad bride, journalist Jamie Dettmer makes the following observation:

Mahmood is one of at least 50 British women and girls who are thought by security experts to have joined ISIS in Syria, although some argue the number maybe higher. Her parents, through their lawyer, insist that as a middle-class woman and at one time a successful student she is not a “stereotypical” case. But many male and female Western ISIS and al Qaeda recruits come from middle-income backgrounds and are often fairly well educated—the 9/11 hijackers were.

Middle-class, well educated, tech-savvy. We are often led to believe that fundamentalism is the product of social marginalisation caused by globalisation. Economic change probably does explain some of it, but it doesn’t begin to explain why grade-A students raised in mock-Tudor mansions join the Jihad.

A more psychologically compelling answer might be alienation: Jihad as the symptom of an existential crisis. A number of smart American conservatives have been exploring the theme, starting with the very smart Michael Brendan Dougherty:

As long as Western liberalism has existed, it has been found charmless or contemptible by some men. Western liberalism asks men to be governed by laws made by mere men and their politicking. It demands of most men that they be mere citizens. It urges thrift, prudence, and industry. This is not for everyone.
Isil's Western converts are not motivated by Islam. They are motivated by boredom – Telegraph Blogs
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Old 03-01-2015, 11:27 AM
 
Location: in the mountains
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Earth to Woodrow, please come back to reality.

Most normal people who are bored watch TV, go to the movies, hang out with their friends and family. They don't join an Islamic death cult. You have to be Muslim to join ISIS, or you have to convert upon joining them. They will kill you if you're not Muslim. Timothy McVeigh types, school shooter types, and serial killers don't join ISIS, because they aren't Muslim. They don't need to be Muslim to kill people.

ISIS doesn't need to be Muslim to kill people, but they choose to go the extra mile to be as Muslim as they possibly can be. I wonder why they do it all for the glory of Allah? I wonder where they got the ideas that Jihad holy war on the infidels would lead them to paradise in heaven? Islam....

The foreigners you are talking about are Muslims who were living in countries outside of Iraq and Syria. So obviously, a large majority are going to be "foreigners" because Iraq and Syria had a small population.

The emphasis continues to be on the ISLAMIC State of Iraq and Syria. Woodrow is another Islamic apologist. Not ALL Muslims rape and kill, but a huge and growing percentage of them do, everyday. You can't blame the economy on what is taught in the Quran.
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Old 03-01-2015, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,211 posts, read 54,662,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangokiwi View Post
Like what ISIS does, when they kill infidels? Let's stay on topic here, we're talking about ISIS in this thread.
EXACTLY like what ISIS does. We have to take care that we don't become just like those who would do us harm.
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
however ISIS does not speak for most of the world's Muslims. [/url]
Maybe not but The Koran Sura 3: V 7-10 do.
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Old 03-03-2015, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissily Mordentroge View Post
Maybe not but The Koran Sura 3: V 7-10 do.

Surah 3 consists of four discourses

The first discourse (vv. 1-32) was probably revealed soon after the Battle of Badr.
In these introductory verses 1 - 32, the fundamental truths about Allah, Revelation and Life-after-death have been reiterated to serve as fitting preliminaries, leading to the main topics discussed in the Surah.
Surah 3 is basically a historical recollection of what happened during an after the battle of Badr. and how it relates to Allah
For further reference see:

Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #3
It is not a list of commandments 1-32 have to be read as a full chapter
1. Alif-Lam-Mim. [These letters are one of the miracles of the Qur'an, and none but Allah (Alone) knows their meanings].

2. Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists.

3. It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad ) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).

4. Aforetime, as a guidance to mankind, And He sent down the criterion [of judgement between right and wrong (this Qur'an)]. Truly, those who disbelieve in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, for them there is a severe torment; and Allah is All-Mighty, All-Able of Retribution.

5. Truly, nothing is hidden from Allah, in the earth or in the heavens.

6. He it is Who shapes you in the wombs as He pleases. La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

7. It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad ) the Book (this Qur'an). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments, etc.), Al-Fara'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabari).

8. (They say): "Our Lord! Let not our hearts deviate (from the truth) after You have guided us, and grant us mercy from You. Truly, You are the Bestower."

9. Our Lord! Verily, it is You Who will gather mankind together on the Day about which there is no doubt. Verily, Allah never breaks His Promise".

10. Verily, those who disbelieve, neither their properties nor their offspring will avail them whatsoever against Allah; and it is they who will be fuel of the Fire.

11. Like the behaviour of the people of Fir'aun (Pharaoh) and those before them; they belied Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), so Allah seized (destroyed) them for their sins. And Allah is Severe in punishment.

12. Say (O Muhammad ) to those who disbelieve: "You will be defeated and gathered together to Hell, and worst indeed is that place to rest."

13. There has already been a sign for you (O Jews) in the two armies that met (in combat i.e. the battle of Badr): One was fighting in the Cause of Allah, and as for the other (they) were disbelievers. They (the believers) saw them (the disbelievers) with their own eyes twice their number (although they were thrice their number). And Allah supports with His Victory whom He pleases. Verily, in this is a lesson for those who understand. (See Verse 8:44). (Tafsir At-Tabari)

14. Beautified for men is the love of things they covet; women, children, much of gold and silver (wealth), branded beautiful horses, cattle and well-tilled land. This is the pleasure of the present world's life; but Allah has the excellent return (Paradise with flowing rivers, etc.) with Him.

15. Say: "Shall I inform you of things far better than those? For Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2) there are Gardens (Paradise) with their Lord, underneath which rivers flow. Therein (is their) eternal (home) and Azwajun Mutahharatun (purified mates or wives) [i.e. they will have no menses, urine, or stool, etc.], And Allah will be pleased with them. And Allah is All-Seer of the (His) slaves".

16. Those who say: "Our Lord! We have indeed believed, so forgive us our sins and save us from the punishment of the Fire."

17. (They are) those who are patient ones, those who are true (in Faith, words, and deeds), and obedient with sincere devotion in worship to Allah. Those who spend [give the Zakat and alms in the Way of Allah] and those who pray and beg Allah's Pardon in the last hours of the night.

18. Allah bears witness that La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), and the angels, and those having knowledge (also give this witness); (He is always) maintaining His creation in Justice. La ilah illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

19. Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account.

20. So if they dispute with you (Muhammad ) say: "I have submitted myself to Allah (in Islam), and (so have) those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and to those who are illiterates (Arab pagans): "Do you (also) submit yourselves (to Allah in Islam)?" If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message; and Allah is All-Seer of (His ) slaves.

21. Verily! Those who disbelieve in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah and kill the Prophets without right, and kill those men who order just dealings, ... announce to them a painful torment.

22. They are those whose works will be lost in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.

23. Have you not seen those who have been given a portion of the Scripture? They are being invited to the Book of Allah to settle their dispute, then a party of them turn away, and they are averse.

24. This is because they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a number of days." And that which they used to invent regarding their religion has deceived them.

25. How (will it be) when We gather them together on the Day about which there is no doubt (i.e. the Day of Resurrection). And each person will be paid in full what he has earned? And they will not be dealt with unjustly.

26. Say (O Muhammad ): "O Allah! Possessor of the kingdom, You give the kingdom to whom You will, and You take the kingdom from whom You will, and You endue with honour whom You will, and You humiliate whom You will. In Your Hand is the good. Verily, You are Able to do all things.

27. You make the night to enter into the day, and You make the day to enter into the night (i.e. increase and decrease in the hours of the night and the day during winter and summer), You bring the living out of the dead, and You bring the dead out of the living. And You give wealth and sustenance to whom You will, without limit (measure or account).

28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to Allah is the final return.

29. Say (O Muhammad ): "Whether you hide what is in your breasts or reveal it, Allah knows it, and He knows what is in the heavens and what is in the earth. And Allah is Able to do all things."

30. On the Day when every person will be confronted with all the good he has done, and all the evil he has done, he will wish that there were a great distance between him and his evil. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment) and Allah is full of Kindness to the (His) slaves.

31. Say (O Muhammad to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

32. Say (O Muhammad ): "Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad )." But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers.

The Qur'an by itself is not a listing of laws and rules. to learn what is actually commanded one needs to understan the Qur'an, including it's historu, The Sunnah including the Ahadith and Madhabs.
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Old 03-03-2015, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 351,914 times
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What ISIS Really Wants - The Atlantic
As if there is such a thing as ‘Islam’! It’s what Muslims do, and how they interpret their texts.” Those texts are shared by all Sunni Muslims, not just the Islamic State. “And these guys have just as much legitimacy as anyone else.”
very true. ISIS is very Islamic, and their Islam is just as legitimate as Woodrow's. That explains why so many muslims are still trying to join Isis despite all the bad press.


That doesnt mean we cant all work to replace ISIS' legitimately extreme Islam with Woodrow's legitimately moderate Islam. eh?
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Old 03-07-2015, 11:30 AM
 
Location: in the mountains
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Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
EXACTLY like what ISIS does. We have to take care that we don't become just like those who would do us harm.
And how are we to stop them from killing us? Beg and plead with them? Convert to Islam ourselves? I think we have to do something to stop them, and it's going to require military intervention, meaning some of them are going to have to die before they give up.

We are not going to magically transform into ISIS because we kill some of them. They are aggressors on their agenda, and their agenda is Islam. Fighting against the violence that occurs eternally in Islam is necessary.
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