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Old 02-17-2015, 07:13 PM
 
Location: in the mountains
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From The Atlantic:

What ISIS Really Wants - The Atlantic


Quote:
Where did it come from, and what are its intentions? The simplicity of these questions can be deceiving, and few Western leaders seem to know the answers. In December, The New York Times published confidential comments by Major General Michael K. Nagata, the Special Operations commander for the United States in the Middle East, admitting that he had hardly begun figuring out the Islamic State’s appeal. “We have not defeated the idea,” he said. “We do not even understand the idea.” In the past year, President Obama has referred to the Islamic State, variously, as “not Islamic” and as al-Qaeda’s “jayvee team,” statements that reflected confusion about the group, and may have contributed to significant strategic errors.
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Old 02-18-2015, 12:18 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
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Why is that many people think that Islam has only one path, yet have amnesia to the fact that Christianity has over 50 paths.
Islam has branches as Christianity does.
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Old 02-18-2015, 01:22 PM
 
Location: in the mountains
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Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Why is that many people think that Islam has only one path, yet have amnesia to the fact that Christianity has over 50 paths.
Islam has branches as Christianity does.
That's not what I have read about Islam. They are always adamant that there's only ONE god, ONE prophet. How do you get many paths out of that? It's incredibly simple.

Devout Muslims decry label of “extremist” and say they’re “normal” for Islam | Freethought Nation

Quote:
Time and again, Islam’s self-proclaimed most devout followers state that it is they, not the so-called “moderates,” who represent the “real Islam.” These fervent Islamic devotees say they are following what would be considered “classical” Islam, as practiced by their prophet Mohammed, believed to be the “Perfect Man” whom every Muslim should emulate. The leader of the Islamic State (“IS/ISIL/ISIS”), marked by heinous brutality and violence, along with his many thousands to millions of followers and admirers globally, insists that he is the current representative of the real Islam. Islamic history and texts based on Mohammed’s sayings and acts are cited abundantly to bear out this contention, including the following Koranic verses:
5:33 – The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.
4:89 – They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.
9:29 – Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Basically, ISIS is following what they believe to be the real and true Islam, the most pure form of it. So that would mean Muslims who live more secular lives are not actually really Muslims... Kind of similar to how secular Christians only go to Church on Christmas, once a year, and otherwise don't do anything Christian the rest of the time.
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Old 02-18-2015, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangokiwi View Post
That's not what I have read about Islam. They are always adamant that there's only ONE god, ONE prophet. How do you get many paths out of that? It's incredibly simple.

....
So by your logic Christians have 50+ Gods/Christs.

Or are Christians also adamant that there is only ONE GOD and Jesus is ONE and SAME. Your logic is highly flawed.
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Old 02-18-2015, 06:05 PM
 
Location: in the mountains
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Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
So by your logic Christians have 50+ Gods/Christs.

Or are Christians also adamant that there is only ONE GOD and Jesus is ONE and SAME. Your logic is highly flawed.
I never said that. I said how do you come up with all these "numerous paths of Islam" when the things Muslims constantly bleat is "THERE IS ONE PROPHET, THERE IS ONE GOD, THERE IS BUT ONE, PB&J!" however that stupid chant ends.

How can numerous paths or kinds of Islam exist? What are the other paths?
You're the one who said there were so many paths in Islam. I am waiting for you to defend your ridiculous statement. I'm waiting.
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Old 02-18-2015, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,395 posts, read 24,247,732 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangokiwi View Post
...
How can numerous paths or kinds of Islam exist? What are the other paths?
You're the one who said there were so many paths in Islam. I am waiting for you to defend your ridiculous statement. I'm waiting.
Done!

Islamic schools and branches - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.real-islam.org/73_8.htm
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Old 02-18-2015, 06:36 PM
 
Location: in the mountains
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1. Wikipedia is never a reliable source when you are researching religion. Anyone can, and does, edit it.
The fact that you cite wikipedia shows you are an amateur at this, no offense. Why isn't Wikipedia a reputable source?

2. Your second source says:
Quote:
Two I used to produce the following list are those of Islamic encyclopedia published by Munshi Mehboob 'Alim [60] and that of Abu-Mansur al-Baghdadi [61]. Abu-Mansur al-Baghdadi's list was produced around 10th century AD and he has included an number of political movement as separate sects. Such movements differed from each other on the question of leadership and had no theological differences and thus I believe that can not be considered as independent sect, so in my list I have not included such political movements as independent sects. On the other hand Munshi Mehboob 'Alim has included in his list, sects which rejects some of the fundamental beliefs of Islam while abu-Mansur al-Baghdadi does not consider them to be a part of Islam
So basically, you provided a list from the 10th century that at the time was debated as to whether or not any of these political organizations/ sects were actually theologically different from the real Islam, and some were not considered part of Islam at all....

Hmm..... I would say things have changed since the 10th century. So I'm not sure what your point is exactly. You haven't actually told me where these different paths of Islam exist in the world today.

However I don't doubt that Islam is actually a political ideology itself, it's not a true religion.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina40811.htm
Citizen Warrior: Forum: How to Defeat Islam - Non-Violently
Quote:
Islam is an utterly ruthless totalitarian political system disguised as a religion. Islam will literally stop at nothing to achieve its objective of world domination, with all non-Muslims exterminated or enslaved. Muslims who deny this are lying (Muslims are encouraged to tell lies to further the expansion of Islam). Terrorism is an intrinsic and inseparable part of Islam.
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Old 02-19-2015, 10:03 PM
 
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Intriguing article. I think everybody in the Obama administration should read and study it.
It helps to understand an enemy.

ISIS ...not a true religion? Seems that the adherents know EXACTLY what they want and need to do within the context of Islam's belief system they espouse which is a return to the medieval period of Islam where they can recreate those days of its religious practice. Marry that to an adherence to its 'norms of war' and an 'obsessive seriousness to the texts of Islam' as well as an urge to expand their 'caliphate' and it is evident that ISIS is a construct not in tune with say the 'modern age' and especially Western civilization. The difference is stunning
and they already are waiting for the day of the 'apocalypse' where the armies of 'Rome' will perhaps be destroyed. The adherents simply seem to 'live' in another age. They surely are not if this time.

To say it will be difficult to deal with the ISIS belief system is a great understatement. This could arguably perhaps be the greatest problem the world has to face in the 21st.
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Old 02-19-2015, 10:32 PM
 
Location: in the mountains
1,372 posts, read 811,287 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
Intriguing article. I think everybody in the Obama administration should read and study it.
It helps to understand an enemy.

ISIS ...not a true religion? Seems that the adherents know EXACTLY what they want and need to do within the context of Islam's belief system they espouse which is a return to the medieval period of Islam where they can recreate those days of its religious practice. Marry that to an adherence to its 'norms of war' and an 'obsessive seriousness to the texts of Islam' as well as an urge to expand their 'caliphate' and it is evident that ISIS is a construct not in tune with say the 'modern age' and especially Western civilization. The difference is stunning
and they already are waiting for the day of the 'apocalypse' where the armies of 'Rome' will perhaps be destroyed. The adherents simply seem to 'live' in another age. They surely are not if this time.

To say it will be difficult to deal with the ISIS belief system is a great understatement. This could arguably perhaps be the greatest problem the world has to face in the 21st.
I agree that Islam is not a true religion. Please see my other thread: http://www.city-data.com/forum/polit...therefore.html

ISIS is definitely not in tune with our modern age or Western civilization. They want to take things back in time to the medieval period, but they want to keep all the toys that we have invented, including guns and cars, cell phones and rocket launchers. To me they appear like a selfish bunch of teenage thugs.

I agree, it's a major, major problem that just doesn't seem to go away. A lot of people are afraid to blame Islam, but I am past that. Islam is not a religion, it's a political ideology that's similar to fascism. It's popular to certain people, for the same reasons. Money and power. So as long as this dangerous ideology exists, people are going to take it up and try to use it for their own personal aims. They might say they do it in the name of God, but that's just another lie used to justify their selfishness.
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Old 02-20-2015, 06:35 AM
 
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What I find really troubling is that it is a theocracy married to totalitarian thinking. It's like a religious/political laser shooting through current civilization killing in its path. Only what they believe lives. Fact is it is 'their' way and no ther can be countenanced. 'Apostates' must be destroyed.

Recently there has been discussion that other approaches taking into account non- violent means should be implemented against the radical Islamic extremists. Surely it is rational thought however the question is are the extremists capable , considering their adherence to a different interpretation of Islam than the mainstream, of also being 'rational'? From the looks of it, no. They are only rational within themselves and their 'caliphate'. Surely tough to have a dialogue under the circumstances. And also even mainstream Muslims have a very difficult time communicating with them. Right now we have almost an intractable problem that perhaps can only solved by war. We may have tough choices to make shortly.
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