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Old 03-09-2015, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
And 31 percent of the women, and 21 percent of the men, said that they would prefer to be home caring for their families, if they had enough money to live comfortably
Women Are Becoming Equal Providers - NYTimes.com

looks like financial independence is what most women really want. but you are right, its the attitude that needs changing. men should spend more time raising the kids and doing house chores. that is what it means to be fair and equal. eh?

now i dont know what you mean by status symbol. are you referring to our manly desire of going after the most beautiful woman that will have us? its only natural. even women prefer good looking men, although they have a more broader view -taking into consideration other positive qualities.

you should really google the scientific explanation of why we are all hard-wired into going after physical beauty




you are against those because of the islamic point of view that sexual attraction to women is wrong.

otherwise what harm does it do?



no, american men are not that shallow.

The Type of Women that Men Want to Marry
The Type of Women that Men Want to Marry


15 types of women that men dont want to marry
15 Types of Women That Men do Not Want to Marry ... ? Love
actually my concepts and attitudes developed long before I ever accepted Islam I believe they developed by the time I was 5 years old.

I can not recall a time when I thought differently.

As a child we were very poor and I had lost my father in WW2. I did have considerable resentment over the way I saw my mother being treated.
I personally feel I have mellowed considerably since I accepted Islam. I was a somewhat angry and often violent person in my pre-Islamic era.
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Old 03-09-2015, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Texas
115 posts, read 172,892 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I do not recall ever suggesting any changes be made for America. A nation has the right to live by it's established rules and standards. If one can not live by them or tolerate them they should leave that nation.
Thats easy for you to say because you live in America.

What about in nations where the people can't leave like North Korea, what rights do you think those people should have?
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Old 03-09-2015, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forum Registration View Post
Thats easy for you to say because you live in America.

What about in nations where the people can't leave like North Korea, what rights do you think those people should have?
None of us can save the world. We can only save those we have control over and that is our self at the most.

However, I have found that when people want to leave a country they will often find the means to do so.

Defectors: what we miss most about life in North Korea | World news | The Guardian

Perhaps you can fill me in, but I am unaware of any nation that forbids it's citizens to leave.
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Old 03-09-2015, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Texas
115 posts, read 172,892 times
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Wait, are you suggesting that North Koreans are free to come and go as they please?

From your article
Quote:
Well, everyone has memories of home. Sometimes I get nostalgic, and certain things get exaggerated in my memory. Maybe that’s because it’s somewhere that’s very present in my memory, yet somewhere that I can never visit again.
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Old 03-09-2015, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forum Registration View Post
Wait, are you suggesting that North Koreans are free to come and go as they please?

From your article
They can not return to North Korea if they leave. That does not mean they can not leave North Korea, it means they loose their citizenship if they do.

My comment was

Quote:
Perhaps you can fill me in, but I am unaware of any nation that forbids it's citizens to leave.
That still stands
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Old 03-09-2015, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,360 posts, read 2,977,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The laws do not need changing it is human attitudes that need to be. I feel that most American men do not equate women as people, but more as status symbols and decorations.

I also find that equal treatment of women is often very unfair to women. Women should no be expected to be equal providers in household expenses.

Yes there are areas in which equal treatment is fair, such as equal pay for equal work, equal opportunity for education, equal rights under the law.

But in other areas women in America are treated very unfairly

The expected standards of beauty for women
The need of a wife to be presented as a desired object to her husband's peers
The parading of women at fashion shows like show horses
Beauty pageants that dictate what beauty is
The choice of marriage being limited to what a woman's beauty can attract.
Woodrow: The official Citi-Data defender of Islam, every day for probably the past several weeks, months, or longer. Have we given you carpal tunnel syndrome yet?

Anyway, I've long assumed that the standards of beauty for women are instigated by women through their urge to compete for status/romantic partners/etc. All the successful, confident women I know seem to care a great deal about their physical appearance, far more than seems reasonable to me. My younger sister for example, is vastly more logical than I am. She's always been responsible. She's always gotten excellent grades. I could brag about her in dozens of different ways, but suffice it to say she has a brilliant mind and she's a very confident, adventurous leader and a social butterfly. She cares an enormous amount about her physical appearance and always has. All of we relatives are slobs. We never taught her any of that. As a guy, I view the expected standards of beauty for women as something that I don't understand and that's not my business. More women are graduating from college than men...and I'm not convinced women are any worse than men at taking care of themselves. I look at women's attention to beauty standards as more their choice than anything pressured upon them. I could of course be wrong...but then why are so many intelligent, confident, independent women I've met so meticulous about their appearance?

I've never met anyone who presents their wife as a trophy or desired object. I've met guys who are quite rude to their girlfriends...but never married couples.

Feeling like we look good tends to make us feel good, so I can understand why a woman would want to enter a beauty contest. I can't think of much good that comes out of beauty contests other than it being something entertaining for the contestants (if that's even true). In fact, I think of beauty contests as the female version of the male-dominated hot-dog eating contests. Neither hot dog-eating contests nor beauty pageants are good for society, but nobody's being forced into it. Therefore, I don't really care. The exception is with child fashion shows. Those sound like a horrible idea due to teaching youth early that appearance is important.

To me beauty pageants seem like just a raindrop in the ocean compared to all the other glorifications of female beauty. I don't see why they're worse than clothing commercials, or magazines, or television. Women are the ones paying for beauty products though. I'm not convinced that women pay so much attention to their looks to impress the guys, so much as to impress other women.

Regarding the choice of marriage being limited to physical appearance, men are probably more likely to be interested in physical appearance than women...but is that really different in any nation? Without makeup there's just natural beauty...and that's completely un-earned. Even conservatively dressed women in head scarfs can be quite pretty in my opinion.

I do think that women seem to have it harder than men, unless the man works harder or makes some effort to other action to take on more. At minimum, the world seems less safe for women. At maximum, they have no rights or get locked into unhealthy relationships which are more likely to be genuinely dangerous than the unhealthy relationships men get into. Also, I have known a single dad and it was quite tough for him, but there are probably many more single moms.

Last edited by Clintone; 03-09-2015 at 11:46 PM..
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Old 03-10-2015, 01:24 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
Woodrow: The official Citi-Data defender of Islam, every day for probably the past several weeks, months, or longer. Have we given you carpal tunnel syndrome yet?

Anyway, I've long assumed that the standards of beauty for women are instigated by women through their urge to compete for status/romantic partners/etc. All the successful, confident women I know seem to care a great deal about their physical appearance, far more than seems reasonable to me. My younger sister for example, is vastly more logical than I am. She's always been responsible. She's always gotten excellent grades. I could brag about her in dozens of different ways, but suffice it to say she has a brilliant mind and she's a very confident, adventurous leader and a social butterfly. She cares an enormous amount about her physical appearance and always has. All of we relatives are slobs. We never taught her any of that. As a guy, I view the expected standards of beauty for women as something that I don't understand and that's not my business. More women are graduating from college than men...and I'm not convinced women are any worse than men at taking care of themselves. I look at women's attention to beauty standards as more their choice than anything pressured upon them. I could of course be wrong...but then why are so many intelligent, confident, independent women I've met so meticulous about their appearance?

I've never met anyone who presents their wife as a trophy or desired object. I've met guys who are quite rude to their girlfriends...but never married couples.

Feeling like we look good tends to make us feel good, so I can understand why a woman would want to enter a beauty contest. I can't think of much good that comes out of beauty contests other than it being something entertaining for the contestants (if that's even true). In fact, I think of beauty contests as the female version of the male-dominated hot-dog eating contests. Neither hot dog-eating contests nor beauty pageants are good for society, but nobody's being forced into it. Therefore, I don't really care. The exception is with child fashion shows. Those sound like a horrible idea due to teaching youth early that appearance is important.

To me beauty pageants seem like just a raindrop in the ocean compared to all the other glorifications of female beauty. I don't see why they're worse than clothing commercials, or magazines, or television. Women are the ones paying for beauty products though. I'm not convinced that women pay so much attention to their looks to impress the guys, so much as to impress other women.

Regarding the choice of marriage being limited to physical appearance, men are probably more likely to be interested in physical appearance than women...but is that really different in any nation? Without makeup there's just natural beauty...and that's completely un-earned. Even conservatively dressed women in head scarfs can be quite pretty in my opinion.

I do think that women seem to have it harder than men, unless the man works harder or makes some effort to other action to take on more. At minimum, the world seems less safe for women. At maximum, they have no rights or get locked into unhealthy relationships which are more likely to be genuinely dangerous than the unhealthy relationships men get into. Also, I have known a single dad and it was quite tough for him, but there are probably many more single moms.
Peace Clintone,
Among other things I do have "carpal tunnel syndrome" but can't give the forum the credit for that. dates back to pre-computer era. From old injuries that made my right arm quite inflexible and quite susceptible to nerve damage from many things. I can not remember exactly when it was I first showed symptoms of it, but it was a long time ago. I used to do a lot of art work and when I could no longer hold a brush is when I first noticed it.

I must admit there is a lot of frustration over the barrage of anti-Islamic comments. But I can understand why many people see Islam in a negative light and I do feel the comments deserve the respect of a reply. But, I can only give my own opinions, based upon my own experiences.

I will admit I do not have nor ever did have the typical American male view of women. I actually had little male contact and no male role models while growing up.

Perhaps because over my life time I had more contact with women than males I have become overly protective and sensitive towards women and see too many things in an exaggerated sense of attacks against women. I guess you could call it a Don Quixote complex to be the defender of women. and I found myself seeing American males as being a threat to women. The windmills that I attack and perceive as dragons are the average American males.

But I do see American women as being exploited and degraded. Possibly because of my choice of career for my 20 or so years working in the civilian world I had very excessive contact with abused women. In Louisiana and Texas they were my typical assignments and my case load was to counsel and establish rehabilitation plans for severely abused women.

I guess that for nearly 20 years the majority of women I had contact with were women that had been severely abused and exploited. It most certainly did have an effect on my perception of the treatment of women in the USA.

Thank you for you input. I do believe that all opinions are valid and should be considered.
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Old 03-10-2015, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Texas
115 posts, read 172,892 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
They can not return to North Korea if they leave. That does not mean they can not leave North Korea, it means they loose their citizenship if they do.
I have seen several documentaries about North Korea and they always interview people who escaped. They say if you leave the country they kill your whole family. If you commit a crime they have a nice thing called three generations of punishment. If they escape south they must cross mine fields and electric fence. If they go north they risk being sent back by China to spend the rest of their lives in prison, your whole family included and any children born there stay too. Recently a hand picked group of minders, I think it was 6 of them were sent to school in the UK but that's the first time. No, citizens are not allowed to leave North Korea. Like Aisha's age at marriage, that is something I thought everyone already knew.

10 Brutal North Korean Secrets - Listverse

The article you posted about North Korea is a propaganda piece made by North Korea reprinted by theguardian.com. The first line before the picture says

'Innocent friendships, community and simple ways of life are just a few things North Koreans miss about home, they tell NK News'

North Korea does a lot of propaganda. This ones my favorite.



It's called 'Americans survive by eating birds and snow'. It's very funny.

Anyway, no one is allowed to leave North Korea. So let's use North Korea as an example.
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Old 03-10-2015, 02:37 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forum Registration View Post
I have seen several documentaries about North Korea and they always interview people who escaped. They say if you leave the country they kill your whole family. If you commit a crime they have a nice thing called three generations of punishment. If they escape south they must cross mine fields and electric fence. If they go north they risk being sent back by China to spend the rest of their lives in prison, your whole family included and any children born there stay too. Recently a hand picked group of minders, I think it was 6 of them were sent to school in the UK but that's the first time. No, citizens are not allowed to leave North Korea. Like Aisha's age at marriage, that is something I thought everyone already knew.

10 Brutal North Korean Secrets - Listverse

The article you posted about North Korea is a propaganda piece made by North Korea reprinted by theguardian.com. The first line before the picture says

'Innocent friendships, community and simple ways of life are just a few things North Koreans miss about home, they tell NK News'

North Korea does a lot of propaganda. This ones my favorite.



It's called 'Americans survive by eating birds and snow'. It's very funny.

Anyway, no one is allowed to leave North Korea. So let's use North Korea as an example.
Fair enough.
Since North Korea is an Atheistic Nation how do you propose the Atheists of the world should solve this?
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Old 03-10-2015, 03:37 AM
 
Location: Texas
115 posts, read 172,892 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Fair enough.
Since North Korea is an Atheistic Nation how do you propose the Atheists of the world should solve this?
Funny you mention that. He brainwashes his people with the media. They worship him like a god. Worse than the Japanese of WWII.
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