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Old 03-17-2015, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
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Yes the indoctrination of errors and habitual misinterpretation within Islam is as bad as we christians labelling all muslims as
evil when in fact 90% muslims are loving ,productive , honest
and a GREAT people whom I love ( having worked with many)
The God of Abraham is ONE not three Gods!!! God simply and
"extemely easily" chooses to present Himself in three distinct
ways Father , Son , and His spirit. Jesus is the fullness of what
we call the "Godhead" and a made up word which communi- cates the 3 yet 1 in the same mystery. Many of our confusing
christian faiths have man made doctrine similar to Islams dogmas albeit Quran. We believe the bible to be the inspired word of God nothing else. We believe that muslims Scientologists, most Jews ( except messanics) are all unbelievers in the son of many mandated by God.

Last edited by openmike; 03-17-2015 at 01:20 PM..
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Old 03-17-2015, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Canada
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most muslims are just like everyone else....people who dont really care much about religion, unless they are obliged to.

the problem is when a muslim takes islam too seriously.
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Old 03-17-2015, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
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One thing that needs to be taken into consideration is many Muslims that post on forums, including myself, are former Christians. Some of us including myself, sincerly believed we were "Born Again Christians" filled with the Holy Spirit. Some of us, again including myself, were clergy (Assembly of God)
I did not leave Christianity because of Islam. I left Christianity because I could no longer preach what I no longer believed. During my last 3 years as a Christian, I stopped believing in God, I could no longer find God in the Bible and I had to accept the fact I was an Atheist. It would have been very hypocritical to still call myself a Christian. I remained an Atheist for the next 20 ears and would still be an Atheist, if Islam had not Found me.

I will agree with you that the Christian beliefs as described in the Qur'an are not applicable to many of today's Christians. However, remember those Surah were addressed to the Christians on the Arabian Penninsula 1,400 years ago. You had Colyridians that did believe the Trinity was 3 gods and one of them being Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Many probably most Arabian Christians did believe the Trinity was 3 seperate Gods.
To understand the Qur'an it helps to know who a Surat was directed to. some were addressed to mixed audiences, some to Pagans, some to Arabian Jews, Some to Arabian Christians, the later ones direct specifically to Muslims etc.
Some of the Christians that were found in Arabia during the time of Muhammad(PBUH)
Colyridians
Gnostics
Ebionites
Simonians
Nazarenes
Adamites
Elcesaites
Marciorists
Byzantine
Thomasons
and many others

At that time the concept of the Trinity as it exists today was not yet fully developed and there was a very wide variation as to beliefs of what or who Jesus(as) was.

It took up until the late 1500s before today's concept of the trinity became nearly universal among all Christians. Even today there are still non-Trinitarian Christians. The Colyridians still exist, which means there are still Christians that believe the Trinity is The Father, Jesus, and Mary and that they are 3 separate but equal gods.
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Old 03-17-2015, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 351,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
However, remember those Surah were addressed to the Christians on the Arabian Penninsula 1,400 years ago. You had Colyridians that did believe the Trinity was 3 gods and one of them being Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Many probably most Arabian Christians did believe the Trinity was 3 seperate Gods.
The Collyridians have become of interest in some recent Christian–Muslim religious discussions in reference to the Islamic concept of the Christian Trinity. The debate hinges on some verses in the Qur'an, primarily [Quran 5:73], [Quran 5:75], and [Quran 5:116] in the sura Al-Ma'ida, which have been taken to imply that Muhammad believed that Christians considered Mary part of the Trinity. This idea has never been part of mainstream Christian doctrine, and is not clearly and unambiguously attested among any ancient Christian group (including the Collyridians)
Collyridianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


so the idea that mary was part of the trinity was really just pure speculation.

besides, if you are to attack the concept of the trinity, the informed & intelligent approach is to attack what 90% of christians actually believed. that is,

trinity = father + son + holy spirit
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Old 03-17-2015, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
The Collyridians have become of interest in some recent Christian–Muslim religious discussions in reference to the Islamic concept of the Christian Trinity. The debate hinges on some verses in the Qur'an, primarily [Quran 5:73], [Quran 5:75], and [Quran 5:116] in the sura Al-Ma'ida, which have been taken to imply that Muhammad believed that Christians considered Mary part of the Trinity. This idea has never been part of mainstream Christian doctrine, and is not clearly and unambiguously attested among any ancient Christian group (including the Collyridians)
Collyridianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


so the idea that mary was part of the trinity was really just pure speculation.

besides, if you are to attack the concept of the trinity, the informed & intelligent approach is to attack what 90% of christians actually believed. that is,

trinity = father + son + holy spirit

I am addressing what the Christians on the Arabian Peninsula at the time of Muhammad believed. that is who those surat were directly addressed to.

Now it is true they were considered to be heretics by main stream Christians, which is why they sought refuge in the Arabian desert. But those were the Christians living there and the specific Christians being addressed.
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Old 03-17-2015, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 351,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am addressing what the Christians on the Arabian Peninsula at the time of Muhammad believed. that is who those surat were directly addressed to.

Now it is true they were considered to be heretics by main stream Christians, which is why they sought refuge in the Arabian desert. But those were the Christians living there and the specific Christians being addressed.
there is no evidence whatsoever that the arab christians believed in the quran's version of the trinity.

but historically didnt the christians make fun of mohammad? thats probably it, you know. its really funny. mary --> trinity LOL!
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Old 03-17-2015, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
there is no evidence whatsoever that the arab christians believed in the quran's version of the trinity.

but historically didnt the christians make fun of mohammad? thats probably it, you know. its really funny. mary --> trinity LOL!


Collyridians

Many anti-Catholics accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary. Of course, there is no basis for this because the Church explicity forbids the worship of anyone other than God. However, back in the early Church, there was group who did in fact worship Mary; they were known as "Collyridians". Their excessive Marian devotion developed into a full blown worship of the Holy Virgin. The heresy lasted about 100 years, existing between 350 and 450 A.D.

The great opponent of the Collyridian sect was St. Epiphanius (d. 403), bishop of Salamis and a close colleague of St. Jerome. One of his most outstanding contributions in defeating the Collyridians was his apologetic Panarion (Medicine Box). In his refutation, he addressed both extremes of Marian heresies: Collyridianism (the super-exhaltation of Mary) and Antidicomarianitism (an Arabian movement which demoted and debased Mary's importance).

The Collyridian sect was comprised of mostly women who combined Catholic and Pagan rituals and beliefs and fused them into a new religion - not unlike, it should be observed, many pseudo Catholic nuns who do the same today. Epiphanius considered this blasphemous, writing "certain women there in Arabia have introduced this absurd teaching from Thracia: how they offer up a sacrifice of bread rolls in the Name of the ever-Virgin Mary, and all partake of this bread."

Heresy floats outside of the boundaries of the true faith. One extreme exaggerates a truth; the other extreme denies it. In the case of Collyridianism, we see a perfect example of the former: where there should be a veneration and devotion to Mary, there is an adoration of her instead.

See also CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary [Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary]

See also CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Intercession [Intercession]

Collyridians (Mary Worshipers)


In recent years there has been a revival of the Colltridian beliefs

THE TRADITION OF MARY,
THE GREAT GODDESS

BY BROTHER MARKUS



From the second century there are several reports about a movement, named collyridians by its opponents. The members of this movement worshipped Mother Mary as goddess. The name collyridians was given to them, because of their practice of offering cakes. A practice that is already reported in Jeremiah for the jewish worshippers of the Queen of Heaven. Although tracks are lost of this movement, the second name that had been conferred on that people "philomarianites" (lovers of Mary) has been used again and again over the centuries by catholic church officials, for those worshipping Mary as goddess. Unfortunately they condemned such tendencies and looked upon them as errors of mislead individuals or sects.

In this thesis I shall prove, that there have been genuine traditions in which Mary was looked upon and worshipped as the supreme being, the Great Goddess. I am using the name philomarianites for this traditions since it is established and not offensive. The philomarianite traditions operated as secretly as necessary and as openly as possible. Due to the last fact, it is possible to find its traces up to this days. I hope, that by bringing these tradition to the light of the day, it will be eventually accepted that Christianity has its own ancient goddess tradition.. Like in Hinduism, where the goddess tradition has been accepted by the orthodoxy as a valid tradition, this might happen in christianity too, one day.

Woman Thou Art God: The Tradition Of Mary, The Great Goddess



Welcome to the Collyridian Ecumenical Episcopal Convocation
Posted by collyridianchurch under Uncategorized
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May peace and blessings be upon you, and welcome to the Collyridian Ecumenical Episcopal Convocation — formerly the Collyridian Britannic Episcopal Church. This will soon become the central point of information and learning for today’s Collyridians/Philomarianites.

CEEC is small yet growing international communion encompassing several streams of traditional, sacramental worship of the Eternal Feminine as manifested through the imagery and devotion of Mary, Anna, and several other saints, most notably Brigid. While we are a parallel tradition within the historical framework of Christianity, we are not about “reconstructing” the long-lost piece of the ancient church; we implement various reforms whenever necessary and appropriate, taking account of the contemporary reality while remaining faithful to the core spiritual authority of the eternal tradition.

https://collyridianchurch.wordpress.com/
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 351,391 times
Reputation: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Collyridians

Many anti-Catholics accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary. Of course, there is no basis for this because the Church explicity forbids the worship of anyone other than God. However, back in the early Church, there was group who did in fact worship Mary; they were known as "Collyridians". Their excessive Marian devotion developed into a full blown worship of the Holy Virgin. The heresy lasted about 100 years, existing between 350 and 450 A.D.
woodrow,

worshipping mary =/= membership in the trinity


besides, the collyridians were long extinct by the time mohammad came into the picture.


apparently mohammad blundered the trinity because he had no idea who or what the HOLY SPIRIT was, and how important he was for Christians. and if you add Mary into the mix what you will have instead is a FOURNITY

Last edited by sophion; 03-18-2015 at 09:06 AM..
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