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Old 04-11-2015, 04:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post








The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said,
"If anyone testifies that

None has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone Who has no partners,
and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle,
and that Jesus is Allah's Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him,
and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true,

Allah will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."

(Junada, the sub-narrator said, " 'Ubada added,
'Such a person can enter Paradise through any of its eight gates he likes.")
Thank you for the welcome cake . Hope you are well.

Regards your reply.. I'm not sure what that has to do with covenants. It doesn't really matter what Mohammed or his companions said on gaining entrance to paradise. You can only do that by meeting God on His terms. Jesus said...

Matthew 7 13:14

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Best you not be fooled by the number and variety of gates you believe you can enter through, you may be on the broad road approaching the wide gate..
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Old 04-11-2015, 04:52 AM
 
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BTW.. In Islam is a prophet and apostle considered to be the same thing?
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Old 04-11-2015, 06:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
BTW.. In Islam is a prophet and apostle considered to be the same thing?
To the best of my knowledge no.
The closest word that might be translated to Apostle is Sahaba which translates into English as companion. It is sometimes used in reference to the companions of Muhammad(saws)

It is possible a Prophet is considered an Apostle of Allaah(swt) but it does not mean an Apostle is a Prophet.
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Old 04-11-2015, 09:23 AM
 
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Thank you Woodrow. I just wondered from Truth tellers post mentioning Mohammed as "slave and apostle of Allah. I thought muslims thought of him as a prophet.

As you know a prophet and apostle is different in the Bible. Paul, being an Apostle.
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Old 04-11-2015, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Thank you Woodrow. I just wondered from Truth tellers post mentioning Mohammed as "slave and apostle of Allah. I thought muslims thought of him as a prophet.

As you know a prophet and apostle is different in the Bible. Paul, being an Apostle.
Yes Muhammad(saws) is a prophet. But that doesn't mean he is not also an apostle of Allaah(swt)
A prophet can be an apostle, but being an apostle does not mean one is a Prophet.
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Old 04-11-2015, 10:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Thank you for the welcome cake . Hope you are well.

Regards your reply.. I'm not sure what that has to do with covenants. It doesn't really matter what Mohammed or his companions said on gaining entrance to paradise. You can only do that by meeting God on His terms. Jesus said...

Matthew 7 13:14

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Best you not be fooled by the number and variety of gates you believe you can enter through, you may be on the broad road approaching the wide gate..

The main sources of Islam are two
The Quran (The saying of Allah)
and the Hadith the saying of The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) and it is one of the two parts of divine Revelation that were revealed to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

and I have posted that Hadith because I see it as a treatment between the creator and us , if we apply the first part we get the second part.

below are all the verse in The Holy Quran that has the word covenants from different chapters

(1) Those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it, and sever that which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth: Those are they who are the losers.
(10) Lo! those who purchase a small gain at the cost of Allah's covenant and their oaths, they have no portion in the Hereafter. Allah will neither speak to them nor look upon them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He make them grow. Theirs will be a painful doom.
(11) When Allah made (His) covenant with the prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter)? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear ye witness. I will be a witness with you.
(12) And unto each We have appointed heirs of that which parents and near kindred leave; and as for those with whom your right hands have made a covenant, give them their due. Lo! Allah is ever Witness over all things.
(13) Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.
(14) It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless (it be) by mistake. He who hath killed a believer by mistake must set free a believing slave, and pay the blood-money to the family of the slain, unless they remit it as a charity. If he (the victim) be of a people hostile unto you, and he is a believer, then (the penance is) to set free a believing slave. And if he cometh of a folk between whom and you there is a covenant, then the blood-money must be paid unto his folk and (also) a believing slave must be set free. And whoso hath not the wherewithal must fast two consecutive months. A penance from Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise.
(15) And We caused the Mount to tower above them at (the taking of) their covenant: and We bade them: Enter the gate, prostrate! and We bode them: Transgress not the Sabbath! and We took from them a firm covenant.
(16) Then because of their breaking of their covenant, and their disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully, and their saying: Our hearts are hardened - Nay, but Allah set a seal upon them for their disbelief, so that they believe not save a few -
(17) Remember Allah's grace upon you and His covenant by which He bound you when ye said: We hear and we obey; And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! He knoweth what is in the breasts (of men).
(18) Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve chieftains, and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor-due, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road.
(19) And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly.
(2) O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, and fulfil your (part of the) covenant, I shall fulfil My (part of the) covenant, and fear Me.
(20) And with those who say: "Lo! we are Christians," We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished. Therefor We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will inform them of their handiwork.
(21) We made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We sent unto them messengers. As often as a messenger came unto them with that which their souls desired not (they became rebellious). Some (of them) they denied and some they slew.
(22) And approach not the wealth of the orphan save with that which is better, till he reach maturity. Give full measure and full weight, in justice. We task not any soul beyond its scope. And if ye give your word, do justice thereunto, even though it be (against) a kinsman; and fulfil the covenant of Allah. This He commandeth you that haply ye may remember.
(23) We found no (loyalty to any) covenant in most of them. Nay, most of them We found wrong-doers.
(24) And when the terror fell on them they cried: O Moses! Pray for us unto thy Lord, because He hath a covenant with thee. If thou removest the terror from us we verily will trust thee and will let the Children of Israel go with thee.
(25) But when We did remove from them the terror for a term which they must reach, behold! they broke their covenant.
(26) And a generation hath succeeded them who inherited the scriptures. They grasp the goods of this low life (as the price of evil-doing) and say: It will be forgiven us. And if there came to them (again) the offer of the like, they would accept it (and would sin again). Hath not the covenant of the Scripture been taken on their behalf that they should not speak aught concerning Allah save the truth? And they have studied that which is therein. And the abode of the Hereafter is better, for those who ward off (evil). Have ye then no sense?
(27) And of them is he who made a covenant with Allah (saying): If He give us of His bounty we will give alms and become of the righteous.
(28) Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.
(29) Such as keep the pact of Allah, and break not the covenant;
(3) And (remember, O Children of Israel) when We made a covenant with you and caused the mount to tower above you, (saying): Hold fast that which We have given you, and remember that which is therein, that ye may ward off (evil).
(30) And those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it, and sever that which Allah hath commanded should be joined, and make mischief in the earth: theirs is the curse and theirs the ill abode.
(31) Fulfil the covenant of Allah when ye have covenanted, and break not your oaths after the asseveration of them, and after ye have made Allah surety over you. Lo! Allah knoweth what ye do.
(32) And purchase not a small gain at the price of Allah's covenant. Lo! that which Allah hath is better for you, if ye did but know.
(33) Come not near the wealth of the orphan save with that which is better till he come to strength; and keep the covenant. Lo! of the covenant it will be asked.
(34) They will have no power of intercession, save him who hath made a covenant with his Lord.
(35) O Children of Israel! We delivered you from your enemy, and we made a covenant with you on the holy mountain's side, and sent down on you the manna and the quails,
(36) And verily We made a covenant of old with Adam, but he forgot, and We found no constancy in him.
(37) And who are shepherds of their pledge and their covenant,
(38) And when We exacted a covenant from the prophets, and from thee (O Muhammad) and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus son of Mary. We took from them a solemn covenant;
(39) Of the believers are men who are true to that which they covenanted with Allah. Some of them have paid their vow by death (in battle), and some of them still are waiting; and they have not altered in the least;
(4) And they say: The Fire (of punishment) will not touch us save for a certain number of days. Say: Have ye received a covenant from Allah - truly Allah will not break His covenant - or tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not?
(40) Lo! those who swear allegiance unto thee (Muhammad), swear allegiance only unto Allah. The Hand of Allah is above their hands. So whosoever breaketh his oath, breaketh it only to his soul's hurt; while whosoever keepeth his covenant with Allah, on him will He bestow immense reward.
(41) What aileth you that ye believe not in Allah, when the messenger calleth you to believe in your Lord, and He hath already made a covenant with you, if ye are believers?
(42) Or have ye a covenant on oath from Us that reacheth to the Day of Judgment, that yours shall be all that ye ordain?
(43) And those who keep their pledges and their covenant,
(5) And (remember) when We made a covenant with the Children of Israel, (saying): Worship none save Allah (only), and be good to parents and to kindred and to orphans and the needy, and speak kindly to mankind; and establish worship and pay the poor-due. Then, after that, ye slid back, save a few of you, being averse.
(6) And when We made with you a covenant (saying): Shed not the blood of your people nor turn (a party of) your people out of your dwellings. Then ye ratified (Our covenant) and ye were witnesses (thereto).
(7) And when We made with you a covenant and caused the Mount to tower above you, (saying): Hold fast by that which We have given you, and hear (Our Word), they said: We hear and we rebel. And (worship of) the calf was made to sink into their hearts because of their rejection (of the covenant). Say (unto them): Evil is that which your belief enjoineth on you, if ye are believers.
(8) Is it ever so that when they make a covenant a party of them set it aside? The truth is, most of them believe not.
(9) And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers.











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Old 04-12-2015, 04:10 PM
 
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Thank you for taking the time to post the Sura's regarding covenants, they pretty much confirm what I have already read myself. I was wondering if I had missed something. I hope you can see my point. No where in the above verses is mention of a covenant authored between allah and Mohammed. The covenants mentioned are in reference to those made in the previous scriptures.

A Covenant carries a little more weight than a promise or "treatment" treaty? I'll find some info on Biblical covenants so you can see what I mean and what is there in Islam by comparison.

http://www.padfield.com/2004/covenants.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/bible-covenants.html

Last edited by Nefol; 04-12-2015 at 04:19 PM.. Reason: added links for reference
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Old 04-12-2015, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Thank you for taking the time to post the Sura's regarding covenants, they pretty much confirm what I have already read myself. I was wondering if I had missed something. I hope you can see my point. No where in the above verses is mention of a covenant authored between allah and Mohammed. The covenants mentioned are in reference to those made in the previous scriptures.

A Covenant carries a little more weight than a promise or "treatment" treaty? I'll find some info on Biblical covenants so you can see what I mean and what is there in Islam by comparison.

Five Great Bible Covenants (Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Christ)

What are the covenants in the Bible?

There is no conflict. All of the Prophets were Muslim and they all followed Islam.
Muhammad(saws) did not form a new religion, he was given what had already been given before.
There is no indication that Allah(swt) made a new covenant with Jesus(a.s.)
It appears Hebrews is the source of that.. Usually attributed to Paul but since the 1800s there has been doubt Paul was the actual Author.

Quote:
If Paul didn't write the letter, who did? The most plausible suggestion is that this was actually a sermon Paul gave and it was transcribed later by Luke, a person who would have had the command of the Greek language which the writer shows. Barnabas is another likely prospect, since he was a Levite and would have been speaking on a subject that he knew much about. Martin Luther suggested Apollos, since he would have had the education the writer of this letter must have had. Priscilla and Clemet of Rome have been suggested by other scholars.

However, there is still much evidence that Paul wrote the letter. The most compelling comes from Scripture itself. Remember that Peter wrote to the Hebrews (that is, the Jews; see Galatians 2:7, 9 and 1 Peter 1:1). Peter wrote: "...just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him [emphasis added]" (2 Peter 3:15). In that last verse, Peter is confirming that Paul had also written a letter to the Hebrews!
Read more: Who wrote the Book of Hebrews? Who was the author of Hebrews?
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Old 04-13-2015, 06:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There is no conflict. All of the Prophets were Muslim and they all followed Islam.
Muhammad(saws) did not form a new religion, he was given what had already been given before.
There is no indication that Allah(swt) made a new covenant with Jesus(a.s.)
It appears Hebrews is the source of that.. Usually attributed to Paul but since the 1800s there has been doubt Paul was the actual Author.



Read more: Who wrote the Book of Hebrews? Who was the author of Hebrews?
Woodrow, with the greatest respect the Biblical prophets were not muslims by the criteria you set for being a muslim. Islam.. Muslim.. Mohammed are mentioned nowhere in the Bible, and indeed why should they be found there. As I said there is no issue with worshipping the One God, jews and Christians were doing that for centuries before Islam came into existence with Mohammed. So what did Mohammed bring that was in any way an improvement on what went before? For the then pagans of Arabia a great deal, for the Jews and Christians nothing they did not already have.

Are you saying then Muslims are part of some of the biblical covenants, even though they aren't mentioned in any great detail in the Quran?

I'm not talking about Hebrews or Paul's letters, they only serve to confirm what went before. Prophet Jeremiah foretold the coming of a new covenant. This was fulfilled by Christ.

Jeremiah 31:31-34

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Jesus confirms it to the Disciples ..

Matthew 26:26-28

Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

The messenger that foretold the coming of the "messenger of the Covenant" (Jesus) referred to in Malachi 3:1 is believed to be John the Baptist.

Malachi 3:1

“Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts.

John the Baptist claimed Jesus was the one that was awaited..

John 1:29-34

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”

Which was also prophesied in Isaiah..

Mark 1:2–4

2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet,
“Behold, I send my messenger before your face,
who will prepare your way,
3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight,’ ”
4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and …

God of the Bible leaves us in no doubt as to His covenants. I do not find this clarity in the Quran.
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Old 04-13-2015, 07:32 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Woodrow, with the greatest respect the Biblical prophets were not muslims by the criteria you set for being a muslim. Islam.. Muslim.. Mohammed are mentioned nowhere in the Bible, and indeed why should they be found there. As I said there is no issue with worshipping the One God, jews and Christians were doing that for centuries before Islam came into existence with Mohammed. So what did Mohammed bring that was in any way an improvement on what went before? For the then pagans of Arabia a great deal, for the Jews and Christians nothing they did not already have.

Are you saying then Muslims are part of some of the biblical covenants, even though they aren't mentioned in any great detail in the Quran?

I'm not talking about Hebrews or Paul's letters, they only serve to confirm what went before. Prophet Jeremiah foretold the coming of a new covenant. This was fulfilled by Christ.

Jeremiah 31:31-34

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Jesus confirms it to the Disciples ..

Matthew 26:26-28

Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

The messenger that foretold the coming of the "messenger of the Covenant" (Jesus) referred to in Malachi 3:1 is believed to be John the Baptist.

Malachi 3:1

“Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts.

John the Baptist claimed Jesus was the one that was awaited..

John 1:29-34

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”

Which was also prophesied in Isaiah..

Mark 1:2–4

2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet,
“Behold, I send my messenger before your face,
who will prepare your way,
3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight,’ ”
4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and …

God of the Bible leaves us in no doubt as to His covenants. I do not find this clarity in the Quran.
Islam is not the name of a religion. It is the name of an action. That action being submission to God(swt) this was done by all of the prophets and all people that truly obeyed God(swt)
Muhammad(saws) did not start a religion. All of the true submitters to God(swt) performed Islam and were Muslim although they called then self Jew, Christian, Sabeean or Muslim.
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