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Old 04-08-2015, 03:58 PM
 
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hi, not been around here for awhile. Hope everyone is in good health.

Question... God made many covenants with His people in the Bible. Some unconditional in nature and some had conditions attached. Jesus authored the final covenant for all mankind. Did God make a covenant with Mohammed for muslims?
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Old 04-08-2015, 10:57 PM
 
4,409 posts, read 1,639,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
hi, not been around here for awhile. Hope everyone is in good health.

Question... God made many covenants with His people in the Bible. Some unconditional in nature and some had conditions attached. Jesus authored the final covenant for all mankind. Did God make a covenant with Mohammed for muslims?
This is not how it works.

Open an authentic translated copy of Qur'an.
Start reading and periodically ask yourself while you read the meaning/translation of versus,

"Is it the truth?"

And then let your heart answer it, truthfully and honestly.


You can do this with any religious text. And see what talks to you?

The call must come from inside you.
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Old 04-09-2015, 04:50 AM
 
762 posts, read 986,775 times
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I read the Quran.. That's why I'm asking the question. The only references I found were to existing covenants made with mankind between God and the Bible prophets.

I would have thought it reasonable to assume that as God thought it necessary for mankind to make numerous covenants then God would surely have made one with Mohammed for the muslims. If mohammed was indeed the final prophet.

The Quran does not appear as truth to me, but a reaction to Christianity to some degree. It offers a man sized God. There are too many unanswered questions.

So my heart tells me the Bible is inspired by God. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in other religious texts and it's by comparing and studying that one can be sure ones faith is best placed according to where God wishes one to be.

I have an interest in the Covenants, that's all.
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Old 04-09-2015, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
I read the Quran.. That's why I'm asking the question. The only references I found were to existing covenants made with mankind between God and the Bible prophets.

I would have thought it reasonable to assume that as God thought it necessary for mankind to make numerous covenants then God would surely have made one with Mohammed for the muslims. If mohammed was indeed the final prophet.

The Quran does not appear as truth to me, but a reaction to Christianity to some degree. It offers a man sized God. There are too many unanswered questions.

So my heart tells me the Bible is inspired by God. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in other religious texts and it's by comparing and studying that one can be sure ones faith is best placed according to where God wishes one to be.

I have an interest in the Covenants, that's all.
The most important thing that needs to be understood is Islam is not a new religion. Islam goes back to before the first man was created.

All of the Prophets including Jesus(a.s.) were Muslim as they truly submitted to Allaah(swt)
Muhammad was not given a new religion, he received the same revelation that was given to all Prophets(pbut)

From 3. Surah Ale-Imran (The Family of Imran)

179. Allah will not leave the believers in the state in which you are now, until He distinguishes the wicked from the good. Nor will Allah disclose to you the secrets of the Ghaib (unseen), but Allah chooses of His Messengers whom He pleases. So believe in Allah and His Messengers. And if you believe and fear Allah, then for you there is a great reward.

180. And let not those who covetously withhold of that which Allah has bestowed on them of His Bounty (Wealth) think that it is good for them (and so they do not pay the obligatory Zakat). Nay, it will be worse for them; the things which they covetously withheld shall be tied to their necks like a collar on the Day of Resurrection. And to Allah belongs the heritage of the heavens and the earth; and Allah is Well-Acquainted with all that you do.

181. Indeed, Allah has heard the statement of those (Jews) who say: "Truly, Allah is poor and we are rich!" We shall record what they have said and their killing of the Prophets unjustly, and We shall say: "Taste you the torment of the burning (Fire)."

182. This is because of that (evil) which your hands have sent before you. And certainly, Allah is never unjust to (His) slaves.

183. Those (Jews) who said: "Verily, Allah has taken our promise not to believe in any Messenger unless he brings to us an offering which the fire (from heaven) shall devour." Say: "Verily, there came to you Messengers before me, with clear signs and even with what you speak of; why then did you kill them, if you are truthful?"

184. Then if they reject you (O Muhammad ), so were Messengers rejected before you, who came with Al-Baiyinat (clear signs, proofs, evidences) and the Scripture and the Book of Enlightenment.

185. Everyone shall taste death. And only on the Day of Resurrection shall you be paid your wages in full. And whoever is removed away from the Fire and admitted to Paradise, he indeed is successful. The life of this world is only the enjoyment of deception (a deceiving thing).

186. You shall certainly be tried and tested in your wealth and properties and in your personal selves, and you shall certainly hear much that will grieve you from those who received the Scripture before you (Jews and Christians) and from those who ascribe partners to Allah, but if you persevere patiently, and become Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2) then verily, that will be a determining factor in all affairs, and that is from the great matters, [which you must hold on with all your efforts].

187. (And remember) when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) to make it (the news of the coming of Prophet Muhammad and the religious knowledge) known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it, but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And indeed worst is that which they bought.
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Old 04-09-2015, 05:14 PM
 
762 posts, read 986,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The most important thing that needs to be understood is Islam is not a new religion. Islam goes back to before the first man was created.

All of the Prophets including Jesus(a.s.) were Muslim as they truly submitted to Allaah(swt)
Muhammad was not given a new religion, he received the same revelation that was given to all Prophets(pbut)

From 3. Surah Ale-Imran (The Family of Imran)

179. Allah will not leave the believers in the state in which you are now, until He distinguishes the wicked from the good. Nor will Allah disclose to you the secrets of the Ghaib (unseen), but Allah chooses of His Messengers whom He pleases. So believe in Allah and His Messengers. And if you believe and fear Allah, then for you there is a great reward.

180. And let not those who covetously withhold of that which Allah has bestowed on them of His Bounty (Wealth) think that it is good for them (and so they do not pay the obligatory Zakat). Nay, it will be worse for them; the things which they covetously withheld shall be tied to their necks like a collar on the Day of Resurrection. And to Allah belongs the heritage of the heavens and the earth; and Allah is Well-Acquainted with all that you do.

181. Indeed, Allah has heard the statement of those (Jews) who say: "Truly, Allah is poor and we are rich!" We shall record what they have said and their killing of the Prophets unjustly, and We shall say: "Taste you the torment of the burning (Fire)."

182. This is because of that (evil) which your hands have sent before you. And certainly, Allah is never unjust to (His) slaves.

183. Those (Jews) who said: "Verily, Allah has taken our promise not to believe in any Messenger unless he brings to us an offering which the fire (from heaven) shall devour." Say: "Verily, there came to you Messengers before me, with clear signs and even with what you speak of; why then did you kill them, if you are truthful?"

184. Then if they reject you (O Muhammad ), so were Messengers rejected before you, who came with Al-Baiyinat (clear signs, proofs, evidences) and the Scripture and the Book of Enlightenment.

185. Everyone shall taste death. And only on the Day of Resurrection shall you be paid your wages in full. And whoever is removed away from the Fire and admitted to Paradise, he indeed is successful. The life of this world is only the enjoyment of deception (a deceiving thing).

186. You shall certainly be tried and tested in your wealth and properties and in your personal selves, and you shall certainly hear much that will grieve you from those who received the Scripture before you (Jews and Christians) and from those who ascribe partners to Allah, but if you persevere patiently, and become Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2) then verily, that will be a determining factor in all affairs, and that is from the great matters, [which you must hold on with all your efforts].

187. (And remember) when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) to make it (the news of the coming of Prophet Muhammad and the religious knowledge) known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it, but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And indeed worst is that which they bought.
Hello Woodrow. Your posts have often been helpful on the subject of Islam, and although muslims hold to the view that all the Biblical prophets were muslims and as a consequence all taught Islam the reality is somewhat different. So Islam is a "new religion" before Mohammed received his revelation Islam was not known.. For sure, the worship of One God was known and this was practiced by both Jews and Christians centuries before Mohammed came along with the Quran and Islam. So on that basis, logically by your thinking Jews and Christians would actually be muslims. Why are we not considered as such? The defining factor is Mohammed and weather or not he is accepted as a prophet.. That is what makes you a muslim and I a christian. Seeing as none of the biblical prophets never knew of Mohammed and would therefore not have had cause to state the belief that he was the final prophet. Then the point you make here is moot. Apart from the fact the message of the Quran is diametrically opposed to the Bible on a great many points. To say they were muslims simply on the basis of submitting to God is just linguistic semantics.

Anyway.. Covenants.

Quote:
187. (And remember) when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) to make it (the news of the coming of Prophet Muhammad and the religious knowledge) known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it, but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And indeed worst is that which they bought.
This verse you quote (and the one I see pertaining to covenants in those you list above..) God never took the covenant away from anyone. To do so would have meant God would have had to have broken His divine word which of course is impossible.. As God is always consistent, unchanging. So weather, in the case of a conditional covenant for example, mankind broke their part and failed to meet the conditions set.. God remains true to His word, there will of course be consequences for the breaking of the covenant towards mankind, but the covenant still stands, until God authors a new covenant with the people. Which brings me back to my question.. I can find no mention of a covenant authored between God and Mohammed for the Muslims. It also doesn't mention which covenant.. There are seven to choose from. So unless you know which covenant God "took from the Jews and Christians" how can you determine if the Jews and Christians had broken it or discarded it?

BTW.. May I also ask.. The words added in parenthesis are they added to the original text for emphasis?
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Old 04-09-2015, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Hello Woodrow. Your posts have often been helpful on the subject of Islam, and although muslims hold to the view that all the Biblical prophets were muslims and as a consequence all taught Islam the reality is somewhat different. So Islam is a "new religion" before Mohammed received his revelation Islam was not known.. For sure, the worship of One God was known and this was practiced by both Jews and Christians centuries before Mohammed came along with the Quran and Islam. So on that basis, logically by your thinking Jews and Christians would actually be muslims. Why are we not considered as such? The defining factor is Mohammed and weather or not he is accepted as a prophet.. That is what makes you a muslim and I a christian. Seeing as none of the biblical prophets never knew of Mohammed and would therefore not have had cause to state the belief that he was the final prophet. Then the point you make here is moot. Apart from the fact the message of the Quran is diametrically opposed to the Bible on a great many points. To say they were muslims simply on the basis of submitting to God is just linguistic semantics.

Anyway.. Covenants.



This verse you quote (and the one I see pertaining to covenants in those you list above..) God never took the covenant away from anyone. To do so would have meant God would have had to have broken His divine word which of course is impossible.. As God is always consistent, unchanging. So weather, in the case of a conditional covenant for example, mankind broke their part and failed to meet the conditions set.. God remains true to His word, there will of course be consequences for the breaking of the covenant towards mankind, but the covenant still stands, until God authors a new covenant with the people. Which brings me back to my question.. I can find no mention of a covenant authored between God and Mohammed for the Muslims. It also doesn't mention which covenant.. There are seven to choose from. So unless you know which covenant God "took from the Jews and Christians" how can you determine if the Jews and Christians had broken it or discarded it?

BTW.. May I also ask.. The words added in parenthesis are they added to the original text for emphasis?
When you read a translation of the Qur'an the words in parenthesis do not appear in the Arabic and are an opinion of the translator. A reason we say a translation is not the Qur'an

And yes we do believe those who followed the original teachings of Judaism and Christianity are true Muslim ( a Person who submits to Allaah)
Islam is not the name of a religion it is an action. The act of submitting to God. those who do Islam are Muslims.

We believe the way to submit to God is to follow the 5 pillars
1) The Testimony of Faith:
2) Prayer:
3) Giving Zakat (Support of the Needy):
4) Fasting during the Month of Ramadan:
5) The Pilgrimage to Makkah
(Hajj) to Makkah is an obligation once in a lifetime for those who are physically and financially able to perform it.
A person who does those 5 things to the best of their ability is doing Islam
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Old 04-09-2015, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Hello Woodrow. Your posts have often been helpful on the subject of Islam, and although muslims hold to the view that all the Biblical prophets were muslims and as a consequence all taught Islam the reality is somewhat different. So Islam is a "new religion" before Mohammed received his revelation Islam was not known.. For sure, the worship of One God was known and this was practiced by both Jews and Christians centuries before Mohammed came along with the Quran and Islam. So on that basis, logically by your thinking Jews and Christians would actually be muslims. Why are we not considered as such? The defining factor is Mohammed and weather or not he is accepted as a prophet.. That is what makes you a muslim and I a christian. Seeing as none of the biblical prophets never knew of Mohammed and would therefore not have had cause to state the belief that he was the final prophet. Then the point you make here is moot. Apart from the fact the message of the Quran is diametrically opposed to the Bible on a great many points. To say they were muslims simply on the basis of submitting to God is just linguistic semantics.

Anyway.. Covenants.



This verse you quote (and the one I see pertaining to covenants in those you list above..) God never took the covenant away from anyone. To do so would have meant God would have had to have broken His divine word which of course is impossible.. As God is always consistent, unchanging. So weather, in the case of a conditional covenant for example, mankind broke their part and failed to meet the conditions set.. God remains true to His word, there will of course be consequences for the breaking of the covenant towards mankind, but the covenant still stands, until God authors a new covenant with the people. Which brings me back to my question.. I can find no mention of a covenant authored between God and Mohammed for the Muslims. It also doesn't mention which covenant.. There are seven to choose from. So unless you know which covenant God "took from the Jews and Christians" how can you determine if the Jews and Christians had broken it or discarded it?

BTW.. May I also ask.. The words added in parenthesis are they added to the original text for emphasis?
Relating just to the last paragraph.

This verse you quote (and the one I see pertaining to covenants in those you list above..) God never took the covenant away from anyone. To do so would have meant God would have had to have broken His divine word which of course is impossible.. As God is always consistent, unchanging. So weather, in the case of a conditional covenant for example, mankind broke their part and failed to meet the conditions set.. God remains true to His word, there will of course be consequences for the breaking of the covenant towards mankind, but the covenant still stands, until God authors a new covenant with the people. Which brings me back to my question.. I can find no mention of a covenant authored between God and Mohammed for the Muslims. It also doesn't mention which covenant.. There are seven to choose from. So unless you know which covenant God "took from the Jews and Christians" how can you determine if the Jews and Christians had broken it or discarded it?

The translation does not quite make sense in English. It does not mean god took anything away from them it is more in the sense of taking a mutual oath/agreement
a better translation
3:187 (Asad) AND LO, God accepted a solemn pledge from those who were granted earlier revelation [when He bade them]: "Make it known unto mankind, and do not conceal it!" [143] But they cast this [pledge] behind their backs, and bartered it away for a trifling gain: and how evil was their bargain! [144] -
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Old 04-10-2015, 09:03 AM
 
762 posts, read 986,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
When you read a translation of the Qur'an the words in parenthesis do not appear in the Arabic and are an opinion of the translator. A reason we say a translation is not the Qur'an

And yes we do believe those who followed the original teachings of Judaism and Christianity are true Muslim ( a Person who submits to Allaah)
Islam is not the name of a religion it is an action. The act of submitting to God. those who do Islam are Muslims.

We believe the way to submit to God is to follow the 5 pillars
1) The Testimony of Faith:
2) Prayer:
3) Giving Zakat (Support of the Needy):
4) Fasting during the Month of Ramadan:
5) The Pilgrimage to Makkah
(Hajj) to Makkah is an obligation once in a lifetime for those who are physically and financially able to perform it.
A person who does those 5 things to the best of their ability is doing Islam
So it seems the translator is adding words, and those words can often change the whole meaning of the passage.


187. (And remember) when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) to make it (the news of the coming of Prophet Muhammad and the religious knowledge) known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it, but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And indeed worst is that which they bought.

Take out the Translators contribution...

187. when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it, but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And indeed worst is that which they bought.

It's gives a different picture entirely. No inference to Mohammed and what knowledge he may have brought. In fact it's not saying much at all about covenants.. What covenant? Who hid it and why? Purchased it for???

Any proof at all that any of the Biblaical prophets adhered to any or all of the above five pillars required to make them a muslim? The last two are extremely doubtful. I'm fine with saying the Bible prophets submitted themselves to God as do Jews and Christians. I don't see that alone gives muslims carte Blanche to say they were muslims, certainly by the definitions of today's muslims.. Who as an article of their faith state Mohammed as their prophet. Stands to reason the Biblical prophets would not have done this.
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Old 04-10-2015, 09:19 AM
 
762 posts, read 986,775 times
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N
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Relating just to the last paragraph.

This verse you quote (and the one I see pertaining to covenants in those you list above..) God never took the covenant away from anyone. To do so would have meant God would have had to have broken His divine word which of course is impossible.. As God is always consistent, unchanging. So weather, in the case of a conditional covenant for example, mankind broke their part and failed to meet the conditions set.. God remains true to His word, there will of course be consequences for the breaking of the covenant towards mankind, but the covenant still stands, until God authors a new covenant with the people. Which brings me back to my question.. I can find no mention of a covenant authored between God and Mohammed for the Muslims. It also doesn't mention which covenant.. There are seven to choose from. So unless you know which covenant God "took from the Jews and Christians" how can you determine if the Jews and Christians had broken it or discarded it?

The translation does not quite make sense in English. It does not mean god took anything away from them it is more in the sense of taking a mutual oath/agreement
a better translation
3:187 (Asad) AND LO, God accepted a solemn pledge from those who were granted earlier revelation [when He bade them]: "Make it known unto mankind, and do not conceal it!" [143] But they cast this [pledge] behind their backs, and bartered it away for a trifling gain: and how evil was their bargain! [144] -
This still is very ambiguous to say the least. A solemn pledge is not quite the same as a covenant. On balance it seems as God did not make a covenant with Mohammed for the muslims, if such existed it would be clear in the Quran. Although, muslims would be under the unconditional covenants meant for all mankind...

Adamic Covenant which is general in nature. Noahic Covenant.... Another general covenant. Abrahamic Covenant. An unconditional covenant. Palestinian Covenant. An unconditional covenant. Davidic Covenant. Again an unconditional covenant. And of course the final one the New Covenant... But as that one depends on the acceptance of Jesus as Saviour, I guess muslims would not accept that one. maybe not the Davidic one either as that points to Jesus.

Thanks for the answers though. I will do some more research.
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Old 04-10-2015, 09:20 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,650,674 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
hi, not been around here for awhile. Hope everyone is in good health.






Quote:
Question... God made many covenants with His people in the Bible. Some
unconditional in nature and some had conditions attached. Jesus authored the
final covenant for all mankind. Did God make a covenant with Mohammed for
muslims?

The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said,
"If anyone testifies that

None has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone Who has no partners,
and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle,
and that Jesus is Allah's Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him,
and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true,

Allah will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."

(Junada, the sub-narrator said, " 'Ubada added,
'Such a person can enter Paradise through any of its eight gates he likes.")
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