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Old 04-27-2015, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliksder View Post
Far as I know from commentary, Deut 25;11-12 is not to be taken literal - just like so many other quotes that there are. However, I do not know the commentary and interpretations of the other quotes by heart.
Just as the shariah requirements make it impossible for a thief to have his hand chopped of.
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Old 04-27-2015, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Just as the shariah requirements make it impossible for a thief to have his hand chopped of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Just an example the chopping off a hand for theft some of the things that must be proven:
The item did not belong to a relative or a person the accused knows
The item was secured and not in plain sight
The item was of high value (Worth more than an ounce of gold)
The thief is a habitual thief and this is a minimum of his 4th theft.
The accused is an adult and competent.
The accused acted alone.
There are more but that is all I remember off-hand
As Sharia guilt is so difficult to prove, the majority of Islamic Nations use secular criminal law
those are easy to prove. so based on what you remember a lot of thieves would be losing an appendage, if sharia law had its way.
 
Old 04-27-2015, 03:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
those are easy to prove. so based on what you remember a lot of thieves would be losing an appendage, if sharia law had its way.
Torah law is more merciful than the Shari'a??

How about a woman being stoned to death for not being a virgin on her wedding night?

"But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the ***** in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you." - Deuteronomy 22:20-21.

That's Jewish Law for you...

And in regards to cutting the hand of the thief if there are 4 witnesses...yes we accept that. We accept Allah (swt) as the one true God and Muhammad (saw) as his messenger. What our personal feelings are towards the laws they gave us, or what the current secular society has to say about such laws is of no consequence to us. Our moral standard has been defined to us and we accept the laws, rules and regulation "as is".
 
Old 04-27-2015, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
those are easy to prove. so based on what you remember a lot of thieves would be losing an appendage, if sharia law had its way.

did you read the first sentence

Quote:
Just an example the chopping off a hand for theft some of the things that must be proven:
but even with just the few I listed they are extremely difficult to prove.
for example

The theft must be done in secrecy.
there has to be 4 witnesses.
the fact there are 4 witnesses makes it difficult to prove it was done in secrecy.

While they could still be convicted of theft, it would not meet the requirements for the Hadd punishment of amputation.
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Old 04-27-2015, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
there are several things in Judaic law that required the chopping off a hand

…11"If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, 12then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.
there are other indications amputation was a part of Judaic law


https://books.google.com/books?id=WP...udaism&f=false
You're using a Christian book to explain Judaism??

It would be more advisable to use Judaism commentary to explain Judaism

Deuteronomy - Chapter 25 (Parshah Ki Teitzei) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
 
Old 04-27-2015, 06:58 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
You're using a Christian book to explain Judaism??

It would be more advisable to use Judaism commentary to explain Judaism

Deuteronomy - Chapter 25 (Parshah Ki Teitzei) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

I deeply apologize to you and Judaism. You are correct. That is the Christian version of Judaism, which is a very poor interpretation of Judaism
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Old 04-27-2015, 07:07 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
Judaism

Exodus:22 [a]“When a man steals an ox or a sheep and butchers it or sells it, he must repay five cattle for the ox or four sheep for the sheep. 2 [b]If a thief is caught in the act of breaking in, and he is beaten to death, no one is guilty of bloodshed. 3 But if this happens after sunrise,[c] there is guilt of bloodshed. A thief must make full restitution. If he is unable, he is to be sold because of his theft. 4 If what was stolen—whether ox, donkey, or sheep—is actually found alive in his possession, he must repay double.

Islam

“The hand (of the thief) should be cut off for (the theft of) a quarter of a Dinar or more.” [Al-Bukhaari]

“May Allaah curse the thief who steals an egg and has his hand cut off, or steals a rope and has his hand cut off.”[Al-Bukhaari]





Huge difference. So which of the two is corrupt? The one which is unjust, inhumane & barbaric of course.
the one that forever cripples people for the price of an egg or more.
Problem with this thread is that it's using the Christian Old Testament for it's foundation instead of Judaisms Tanakh. They are not the same as shown below:

Exodus - Chapter 22 (Parshah Mishpatim) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
 
Old 04-27-2015, 11:21 PM
 
116 posts, read 67,423 times
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I don't know much about Judaism....but "Jewish law" is Halakha (to go/to walk) which would correspond with Sharia/Fiqh (Sharia= way to water). These are nuanced, sophisticated traditions. It is even possible that much of Western law is based on some of the ethical principles of Halakha such as ---a person is innocent until found guilty, the punishment has to be commensurate, and not excessive, to the crime, Equality in Justice....etc

The Quran is a Guidance and it promotes balanced ethical/moral principles. Its principles of Justice is balanced with Compassion and Mercy. The focus of the Quran is on a) promotion of good and deterrence of harm, b) to encourage repentance and reform, c) to provide a means to heal the soul (nafs). To accomplish this, various systems of justice are advocated...such as a) Deterrent Justice---the purpose of this system in not to punish but to deter people from committing the crime---thus punishments are harsh but difficult to implement. b) Retributive Justice---the system of Justice prevalent in Western Law---this allows for the victims a degree of compensation for the injustice done to them. Some Western laws focus on punishment as a means of Justice...but in the Quran, the focus is on the healing of the soul of both the victim and the criminal. c) Restorative Justice is one that encourages mercy on the part of the victim and remorse and reform on the part of the offender---thus healing and restoring the souls to its inherent goodness.
 
Old 04-28-2015, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 351,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Problem with this thread is that it's using the Christian Old Testament for it's foundation instead of Judaisms Tanakh. They are not the same as shown below:

Exodus - Chapter 22 (Parshah Mishpatim) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Thank you. Here it is then:

1If, while breaking in, the thief is discovered, and he is struck and dies, [it is as if] he has no blood.
2If the sun shone upon him, [it is as if] he has blood; he shall surely pay. If he has no [money], he shall be sold for his theft.
3If the stolen article is found in his possession whether a bull, a donkey, or a lamb live ones he shall pay twofold.
4
If a man leads his animals into a field or a vineyard, or lets his animal loose and it eats in another's field, the best of his field or the best of his vineyard he shall pay.


Not bad, eh?
 
Old 04-28-2015, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 351,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
did you read the first sentence

but even with just the few I listed they are extremely difficult to prove.
for example

The theft must be done in secrecy.
there has to be 4 witnesses.
the fact there are 4 witnesses makes it difficult to prove it was done in secrecy.

While they could still be convicted of theft, it would not meet the requirements for the Hadd punishment of amputation.
yes i did, its why i said 'based on what you remember'.

your list is easy to prove. those are the qualities of the common pickpocket.

if a pickpocket is caught in the act youll often get a dozen witnesses.
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