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Old 04-28-2015, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
yes i did, its why i said 'based on what you remember'.

your list is easy to prove. those are the qualities of the common pickpocket.

if a pickpocket is caught in the act youll often get a dozen witnesses.

which removes it from being subject to hadd punishment and under Sharia does not meet the criteria for having a hand chopped off.

It is not done in secrecy--it is out in the open
The item is not locked securely away
Also Sunnah clothing has no pockets. Money and valuables if carried on the body are to be in a secured pouch attached to the body under the clothing.
Pickpockets can be charged for theft under the non-Sharia laws of a nation but it, does not meet the Hadd requirement that calls for amputation.
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Old 04-28-2015, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 351,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
which removes it from being subject to hadd punishment and under Sharia does not meet the criteria for having a hand chopped off.

It is not done in secrecy--it is out in the open
The item is not locked securely away
Also Sunnah clothing has no pockets. Money and valuables if carried on the body are to be in a secured pouch attached to the body under the clothing.
Pickpockets can be charged for theft under the non-Sharia laws of a nation but it, does not meet the Hadd requirement that calls for amputation.

a theif trails a woman from behind, slashes open their bag and steals the contents without the victim knowing. its all about secrecy.

this is common in the 3rd world. sometimes a thief gets caught and is beaten by the mob before he lands in jail.

the different ways of doing this technique is amazing.
they can do it while you are sitting side by side in the bus.
 
Old 04-28-2015, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,364 posts, read 24,104,739 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
Thank you. Here it is then:

1If, while breaking in, the thief is discovered, and he is struck and dies, [it is as if] he has no blood.
2If the sun shone upon him, [it is as if] he has blood; he shall surely pay. If he has no [money], he shall be sold for his theft.
3If the stolen article is found in his possession whether a bull, a donkey, or a lamb live ones he shall pay twofold.
4
If a man leads his animals into a field or a vineyard, or lets his animal loose and it eats in another's field, the best of his field or the best of his vineyard he shall pay.


Not bad, eh?
Yet you skip the Judaism explanation for each line in the same link that was written over 900 years ago. Wonder why.
 
Old 04-28-2015, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Yet you skip the Judaism explanation for each line in the same link that was written over 900 years ago. Wonder why.
i wonder if you even understand the point of this thread.


hints:
* chop chop
* the muslim argument that the jewish prophets were islamic
 
Old 04-28-2015, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
a theif trails a woman from behind, slashes open their bag and steals the contents without the victim knowing. its all about secrecy.

this is common in the 3rd world. sometimes a thief gets caught and is beaten by the mob before he lands in jail.

the different ways of doing this technique is amazing.
they can do it while you are sitting side by side in the bus.

It does not meet the criteria of secrecy as the thief is not alone. There are people present.
Even if just the owner of the stolen item is present, the condition of secrecy is not met.

A pickpocket is not going to meet the definition of a hadd crime.

On another note some nations I believe Saudi is one will amputate the hand of a pickpocket under their secular laws, but not under Sharia. that has nothing to do with Islam it is the secular of the monarchy.
Just as the Christian nations that have had the death penalty for theft are not following Christian law.
In 1964 James coburn was executed for Robbery in Alabama
U.S. Executions - 1964 - DeathPenaltyUSA, the database of executions in the United States

that strikes me as being more severe than the amputation of a hand. But, I do not see Alabama as representing Christianity any more than I see Saudi as representing Islam.
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Old 04-28-2015, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 351,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It does not meet the criteria of secrecy as the thief is not alone. There are people present.
ARE YOU SERIOUS????


i think you are taking the word 'alone' a little bit too literally.


“May Allaah curse the thief who steals an egg and has his hand cut off, or steals a rope and has his hand cut off.”[Al-Bukhaari]


thieves do steal eggs from a peddler in a market, dont they?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
that strikes me as being more severe than the amputation of a hand. But, I do not see Alabama as representing Christianity any more than I see Saudi as representing Islam.
Saudi Arabia shows itself as the representative of Islam.

Alabama does not try to represent anything.
 
Old 04-28-2015, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
ARE YOU SERIOUS????


i think you are taking the word 'alone' a little bit too literally.


“May Allaah curse the thief who steals an egg and has his hand cut off, or steals a rope and has his hand cut off.”[Al-Bukhaari]


thieves do steal eggs from a peddler in a market, dont they?





Saudi Arabia shows itself as the representative of Islam.

Alabama does not try to represent anything.
That is a Hadith. It was an exclamation made by Muhammad(saws) it was never considered a command and not part of Sharia.

And yes if the owner of property is present the hadd crieria of theft can not be met. Although it is possible the hadd criteria for highway robbery might be.

the maximum penalty for highway robbery is death. I have not studied much about it. Have to dig into my Fiqh-ul-Sunnah
but going by memory it is very similar to armed robbery in the US and the penalty will differ depending upon such things as if a weapon was used, if anyone was injured or killed,

In the Hanafi Madhab there are 4 Hadd crimes in the other 3 Madhabs there are 5.

Islamic Jurisprudence like all legal systems is quite complex, very long and does require many years of study.
If you are bored here is a 180 page introduction to Hanafi. basically the text book for Hanafi 101 for those studying Islamic Jurisprudence. the University of Texas in Austin used to use this in their Islamic Jurisprudence Program One of the few schools in the world that offers a degree in Islamic Jurisprudence.
http://www.dhikrullah.com/knowledge/...0al-Quduri.pdf
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Old 04-28-2015, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 351,450 times
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^ the absence of the the owner is not mentioned in this list you posted:

The ruling of theft in Islam - Islam web - English


nobody said that hadith was a commandment. its only an example of who gets his hand chopped off.



also if it was meant to impossible to be carried out, then whats the point in commanding it in the quran?

“And (as for) the male thief and the female thief, cut off (from the wrist joint) their hands as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allah. And Allah is All-Powerful, All-Wise.”
 
Old 04-28-2015, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 351,450 times
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It was narrated from Ibn Umar (RA) that a Makhzumi woman used to borrow things then deny that she had borrowed them, so the Prophet (PBUH) ordered that her hand be cut off.


there goes the idea about absent owners
 
Old 04-28-2015, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
^ the absence of the the owner is not mentioned in this list you posted:

The ruling of theft in Islam - Islam web - English


From the link I posted.
I highlighted the things that are not likely to occur if the owner is present

1- The thing should have been taken by stealth; if it was not taken by stealth, then the hand should not be cut off, such as when property has been seized by force in front of other people, because in this case the owner of the property could have asked for help to stop the thief.

2- The stolen property should be something of worth, because that which is of no worth has no sanctity, such as musical instruments, wine and pigs.

2- The value of the stolen property should be above a certain limit, which is three Islamic Dirhams or a quarter of an Islamic Dinar, or their equivalent in other currencies.

3- The stolen property should have been taken from a place where it had been put away, i.e., a place where people usually put their property, such as a cupboard, for example.

4- The theft itself has to be proven, either by the testimony of two qualified witnesses or by the confession of the thief twice.

5- The person from whom the property was stolen has to ask for it back; if he does not, then (the thief’s) hand does not have to be cut off.

in addition if the owner is present, they will protest the person taking it, which changes it from theft to highway robbery.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
nobody said that hadith was a commandment. its only an example of who gets his hand chopped off.
It also does not give the definition of theft


Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
also if it was meant to impossible to be carried out, then whats the point in commanding it in the quran?

“And (as for) the male thief and the female thief, cut off (from the wrist joint) their hands as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allah. And Allah is All-Powerful, All-Wise.”
I do not have the ability to explain why Allaah(swt) does anything. I can only explain how it affects me.
I see this of just one of many warnings that no matter how severe of a punishment mankind can give out, it is miniscule compard to what the punishments of hell would be.
Just my opinion but I do not find the Qur'an, Ahadith,madhabs as having a goal to mete out punishments but ratther as an an incentive to not do that which would result in punishment.

Also Allaah is aware of things I do not know. There probably is a way a person could meet the hadd requirement for teft although I do not see how.
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