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Old 05-31-2015, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Candy Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
if a woman needs "protection" from the dangerous men around her....then maybe she needs to be around men who are not so dangerous? Men who don't abuse women, oppress women, blame women for the very violence they inflict, instead of taking responsibility for their own violent deviant brutal behavior?

My mama taught me honey if you are afraid of a man, you hightail it away from him as fast as you can. Coz he dangerous, he gonna hurt you, and he gonna blame you for it when he does.

good advice that has served me well

when any man of any stripe starts saying I have to look a certain way or dress a certain way or else it might cause men to hurt me......he is, as the opening post person so clearly states and he is a Muslim man speaking, bear that in mind, "the Quaranic injunction to women on dress is mainly to protect them from men, who have 'disease in their hearts'."

how about men working on their disease instead of blaming it on the women?
Just because you don't believe in Islam doesn't mean you have to get snippy. As I mentioned, my grandmother was Italian (and Catholic) and always believed in modesty. Islam isn't the only faith that believes women should be modest - Christians and Jews believe that as well.

I don't associate with violent men or men that flirt with me. I actually hate when men flirt with me; I do not like it and will not have any part in it. I tend to say, "Have a wonderful day." and walk away. I wish men would just leave me alone.

However, I have noticed that dress does effect the way men perceive women. I dress mostly in band t-shirts and jeans, but for work I wear modest dresses and long skirts with short sleeve tops (I can't wear long sleeves - I have a health condition where I'm always hot and long sleeves are unbearable for me). It's always how I've been. Do men still flirt with me? Yes. But, I tell them I'm not interested. Most are good about that, but some are not... even when dressed modestly. Will dress stop men? No, but it's better than being called awful names because of the way someone dresses. And yes, all men of any culture will call a woman horrible names because of the way she's dressed or acts.
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Old 05-31-2015, 11:50 AM
 
13,108 posts, read 13,719,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessxwrites89 View Post
And yes, all men of any culture will call a woman horrible names because of the way she's dressed or acts.
no, all men are NOT like that.

and for the ones who do treat women like crap, it is not the woman's fault.
men who blame women for their own deviant behavior are dangerous and they will cause you harm.
IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT WHEN A MAN IS UGLY TOWARDS YOU.

you are not responsible for a man's behavior.....he is

There are "red flags" that are indicators of men who abuse women. One of those red flags is dictating how a women must dress. Another of those red flags is blaming women for their own violent uncontrolled behavior, rather than taking responsibility for it. It is your fault, so he does not have to change or improve. This conversation is not about religion. It is about men debasing and abusing women and feeling entirely justified in doing so. Even the opening post person (a Muslim speaking quite frankly) identifies this and owns it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu Zainab View Post
The Qur'anic injunction to women on dress is mainly to protect them from men, who have 'disease in their hearts'. This is what frustrates some men so much about the Islamic dress, ...the Islamic dress deprives the LUSTFUL man of so much free entertainment.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-31-2015 at 12:03 PM..
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Old 05-31-2015, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Candy Kingdom
3,228 posts, read 2,863,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
no, all men are NOT like that.

and for the ones who do treat women like crap, it is not the woman's fault.
men who blame women for their own deviant behavior are dangerous and they will cause you harm.
IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT WHEN A MAN IS UGLY TOWARDS YOU.

you are not responsible for a man's behavior.....he is

There are "red flags" that are indicators of men who abuse women. One of those red flags is dictating how a women must dress. Another of those red flags is blaming women for their own violent uncontrolled behavior, rather than taking responsibility for it. It is your fault, so he does not have to change or improve. This conversation is not about religion. It is about men debasing and abusing women and feeling entirely justified in doing so. Even the opening post person (a Muslim speaking quite frankly) identifies this and owns it:
Let's agree to disagree. I'm a survivor of being sexually assaulted. The case was dropped because the detective said: "well you were an idiot because you were drinking with him and believed him when he said he'd take you home to see a movie." I didn't make the right decision that night, I will admit. I was depressed and wanted someone to talk to. I trusted him and thought of him as a good person - I believed him when he said we'd watch a movie and talk. I didn't think he'd give me more alcohol, soda and I was possibly drugged because I don't remember much of anything, but it happened. Yes, he should have been arrested and put in jail. It is inexcusable to what he did to me, but I also didn't make the right choices that night either. As a friend said, "None of you were making good choices, but his choice of sexually assaulting you makes him dangerous and is inexcusable. Although you were drinking, you didn't deserve that."

I was always careful, but that night I wasn't and I learned the hard way. And no, I wasn't wearing revealing clothes. I was wearing a baggy Pantera shirt and jeans (it was winter). So, yeah, even modesty does bring men. In all honesty, I despise most men. I hate when they flirt with women, I hate how they act around women. Older men and married men that are faithful to their wives are good, but young, single men - no thank you. I would love if a man would just leave me alone.

I for one am modest. I have always been modest - like I said, I was raised by an Italian, Catholic woman and modesty was key. That's why I say in all three Monotheistic faiths, modesty is very important. I don't let men dictate what I wear, I choose my own way of dressing. Dressing modestly was always my way and I wouldn't change the way i dress.
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Old 05-31-2015, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,122,407 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessxwrites89 View Post
Dressing modestly was always my way and I wouldn't change the way i dress.
That's fine. You can dress as modestly as you want.

But are you critical of women who choose to dress less modestly?
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Old 05-31-2015, 05:19 PM
 
Location: Candy Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
That's fine. You can dress as modestly as you want.

But are you critical of women who choose to dress less modestly?
No, I don't really care how someone dresses. If it doesn't effect me, I really don't care. What others decide to do in their life is their business... it's none of my concern (that's how I was also raised).
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Old 05-31-2015, 05:55 PM
 
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I agree with you that modest attire for a woman is dignified and respectful. It can be an expression of dignity and self-respect when we choose it for ourselves.

However part of recovering from assault and PTSD is NOT blaming ourselves for the trauma, NOT blaming ourselves for the violence of another human being. When a man (or a religion, or a culture, or a police officer) says "that's the way men are" they are in effect saying that the violence is justified, and all men are like that, and they see nothing wrong with it. They are condoning violence and they are perpetuating violence and they are defending violence and they are justifying violence.

I hope you can see how this is dangerous as a woman. This is a huge red flag. This is dangerous. This is knowingly walking into a dangerous abusive situation. Part of healing is knowing that there are good men, there are kind men, there are men who take responsibility for their actions, there are men who are peaceful, who treat women with dignity and respect. That is part of healing, to know what healthy beliefs are, even if we don't at this time have them in our world. We will get there. May you be surrounded and blessed always with people who only and always have your best interests at heart, and treasure you and keep you safe.

How to recognize the peaceful men who respect women? Well here's a hint: they are NOT the ones saying "that's the way men are, they have a disease of the heart"

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-31-2015 at 06:12 PM..
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Candy Kingdom
3,228 posts, read 2,863,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
I agree with you that modest attire for a woman is dignified and respectful. It can be an expression of dignity and self-respect when we choose it for ourselves.

However part of recovering from assault and PTSD is not blaming ourselves for the trauma, not blaming ourselves for the violence of another human being. When a man (or a religion, or a culture, or a police officer) says "that's the way men are" they are in effect saying that the violence is justified, and all men are like that, and they see nothing wrong with it. They are condoning violence and they are perpetuating violence and they are defending violence and they are justifying violence.

I hope you can see how this is dangerous as a woman. This is a huge red flag. This is dangerous. This is knowingly walking into a dangerous abusive situation. Part of healing is knowing that there are good men, there are kind men, there are men who take responsibility for their actions, there are men who are peaceful, who treat women with dignity and respect. That is part of healing, to know what healthy beliefs are, even if we don't at this time have them in our world. We will get there. May you be surrounded and blessed always with people who only and always have your best interests at heart, and treasure you and keep you safe.

How to recognize the peaceful men who respect women? Well here's a hint: they are NOT the ones saying "that's the way men are, they have a disease of the heart"
Well, I was a Muslim before the assault. I became spiritual and regret turning my back on it. It was so much different than Catholicism (I don't believe in that) and it was something that I believed in with my heart and soul. Before the assault, it made me feel at peace. I like the feeling. I want to slowly get back into it again. I turned my back mostly because of my mom. My mom is an Atheist and HATED my decision. My spiritual father and my Catholic grandmother were okay with my decision as they said, "live the life you see fit. If this is what you want to do, do it." My dad has Muslim friends and my grandmother did too. Nan even took the time to learn about it. However, I wouldn't get involved with another family again. I would rather do things on my own terms. I want to do it on my own terms because that is a way of healing for me. You know?

I don't like men in my area. I really want to get out of my area and go elsewhere. So, I don't bother with men here... but I never really bothered with guys, though I dated two guys, both three months each (6 years ago), and would never date people from here again. I never really liked when men flirted with me because I find it so annoying. I am much more than a body. I do have guy friends, but I would never date them or have a relationship with them. Most men are good about getting hints that I am not interested, but there are some men that aren't too good. Those types of men scare me - I don't like those type of men who never give up and become a pest.

But, I agree about dismissive attitudes. What the detective told me and even what my mother told me ("you deserve what happened to you! You were an idiot and deserve it! You're a horrible person and I hope it happens to you again and the next time you die!") really made me feel bad. Most people in this area dismissed what happened to me. I have health issues and they couldn't prove internal, but I waited two days to tell my dad... I waited out of shame, though dad had an inkling (dad's in law enforcement) and it was too late for a blood test for drugs... though I had a full panel three days later and my doctor was worried. I don't remember most of what happened to me, but I remember a few things. I think the aftermath was bad too. I never felt so awful in my life. I'm starting to feel better and I'm starting to feel peace. I've started doing what is best for me... not what is best for naysayers. My spiritual journey is very important to me and it has helped. Surrounding myself with positive people helps too.
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:32 PM
 
13,108 posts, read 13,719,951 times
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Good for you, may your healing continue.

It is an additional trauma, it is an additional abuse, every time we are blamed for the abuse. It is literally adding injury on top of injury. It is natural and normal to focus on your healing, that is the most important thing for your peace and well-being. Prayer is an important part of that, and surrounding yourself with positive people who are familiar with the healing process and PTSD are an important support.

But is also essential to get some type of counseling or therapy from a professional. Women's centers may offer these, many have sliding scale payment, many are free. If a person does not do therapy or counseling, the pattern is likely to repeat it itself, and we won't heal. It's no different then a broken arm, yes we pray for God to heal us, but we also go to the doctor. PTSD and recovery from assault are just as important to go to a therapist or counselor for.

Best wishes on your healing, God bless you.
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Old 06-01-2015, 08:58 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 772,625 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
if a woman needs "protection" from the dangerous men around her....then maybe she needs to be around men who are not so dangerous? Men who don't abuse women, oppress women, blame women for the very violence they inflict, instead of taking responsibility for their own violent deviant brutal tyrannic behavior?

My mama taught me honey if you are afraid of a man, you hightail it away from him as fast as you can. Coz he dangerous, he gonna hurt you, and he gonna blame you for it when he does. And if he say God tell him to do it, well that man ain't God, coz God want you safe you his precious baby, so that man be blaspheming also.

good advice that has served me well

when any man of any stripe starts saying a woman has to look a certain way or dress a certain way or else it might cause men to hurt me......he is, as the opening post person so clearly states and he is a Muslim man speaking, bear that in mind, "the Quaranic injunction to women on dress is mainly to protect them from men, who have 'disease in their hearts'."

how about the dangerous men working on their disease instead of being dangerous to the women around them?
You may be misunderstanding the injunction so I will explain... We accept that Allah (swt) is the absolute highest in knowledge and submit to his will. Therefore we deem that Allah (swt) knows better than us about whom we are as humans, what we are lacking, where we are deficient, etc... Allah (swt) has ordered the woman the cover and be modest not just because men might violently rape or take advantage of a woman...but rather men instinctually will judge a woman based on looks and appearance *over* her intellect, good manners and religiousity. This is a flaw in man, and Allah (swt) has addressed man on this issue by telling men to lower their gaze and not stare or directly look at women out of lust (where as a woman *can* observe men).

So we can deduce from this that Allah (swt) has covered the issue from both sides...by telling men very frankly to lower their gaze, guard their private parts from ludeness and has issued *very* harsh penalties for rape (stoning)...on the other end Allah (swt) has ordered the women to cover and dress modestly as man inherently struggles with this issue.

I hope that better explains our position.
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Old 06-01-2015, 10:58 PM
 
13,108 posts, read 13,719,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
You may be misunderstanding the injunction so I will explain...
I understand perfectly. The attitude and agenda are utterly transparent.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 06-01-2015 at 11:13 PM..
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