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Old 06-05-2015, 11:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
The Quran (and the Bible and any other religious books) are read and acted upon by men. ... But, really, who are we to say that we are right and they are wrong? Both are reading the word of God (or Allah, no desire to offend) and coming away with different messages. That happens, by degree anyway, in any religion. Christians have the KKK, the Aryan Nations and the Kony army that do much the same. Who really says that their reading of the holy book is wrong and someone else's is right?

... I need no such book to tell me that when an atheist commits a vile act that it is wrong. The difference such that it it is that the atheist can't claim his acts are done to honor God. The atheist doesn't expect to be rewarded with a spot in heaven, or with 72 virgins, or whatever positive afterlife his religion claims, for his evil acts by claiming they are done to honor God/Allah.

It isn't just religions that are capable of these things. Communism in the Soviet Union and China killed just as many with no more justification. It can be argued that unbridled nationalism or patriotism is no different as well, as a twisted moral justification for any evil.
I agree. In the court system and judicial system psycopaths and sociopaths often use similar justification as their defense for heinous crimes and vile acts.

Another component in this sociopathic mindset, is the utter lack of remorse shown. That is what is so disturbing among some (not all) of even the so-called "peaceful" adherents... the utter absence of remorse.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 06-05-2015 at 12:28 PM..
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Old 06-05-2015, 04:26 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 772,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
I agree. In the court system and judicial system psycopaths and sociopaths often use similar justification as their defense for heinous crimes and vile acts.

Another component in this sociopathic mindset, is the utter lack of remorse shown. That is what is so disturbing among some (not all) of even the so-called "peaceful" adherents... the utter absence of remorse.
I agree. It's disgusting to see the Israeli PM and leaders of the IDF not give two hoots about murdering nearly 2000 civilians (as compared to "1" Israeli civilian death) in the most recent Gaza aggression. What's sad is that their "peaceful" general public most agreed with the murders and complete disproportionate use of force against a population with no means of defense other than underground paramilitary groups working with weaponary from WWII.

But still that has nothing to do with the topic of the religion of Islam.
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Old 06-05-2015, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,680 posts, read 17,713,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
I agree. It's disgusting to see the Israeli PM and leaders of the IDF not give two hoots about murdering nearly 2000 civilians (as compared to "1" Israeli civilian death) in the most recent Gaza aggression. What's sad is that their "peaceful" general public most agreed with the murders and complete disproportionate use of force against a population with no means of defense other than underground paramilitary groups working with weaponary from WWII.

But still that has nothing to do with the topic of the religion of Islam.
If those "underground paramilitary groups" would quit slaughtering and attempting to slaughter innocent Israelis, there would be no need for a "disproportionate response". Or any response. Hard to criticize the people of Israel when these a-holes launch over 1000 deadly rockets into civilian areas before Israel even responds. If the people of Gaza want peace they should reign in the butchers in their midst. Perhaps some other country would be happy to take in the terrorists? Maybe Egypt? Syria?

If Canadian or Mexican terrorists were launching rockets into our cities, and killing our civilians, I would sure hope our government would respond.

Not that any of this has anything to do with any religion.
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Old 06-05-2015, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,680 posts, read 17,713,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
it is disingenuous to claim "this has nothing to do with the topic of the religion of Islam" because Islam is political. Mosques are used for political purposes. There is no "separation of church and politics" within Islam because the stated goal of Islam is to not only obliterate Christianity and Judaism and all other religions, but also to destroy democracy. For Islam, religion and politics are inseparable.

A recent example is when the two Muslim assassins were killed, the imam prayer leader of the mosque they attended, instructed members of the mosque to not talk to the FBI.
That is sad and pathetic, and something I was not aware of. When there are murderers exist within Christian congregations, I have never heard of any such decree from a priest or minister to shield or protect them from justice. And if there were I would be among the first to condemn them. I would expect that other Muslims (including those on this site) would condemn that Imam.
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Old 06-05-2015, 06:22 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 772,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
If those "underground paramilitary groups" would quit slaughtering and attempting to slaughter innocent Israelis, there would be no need for a "disproportionate response". Or any response. Hard to criticize the people of Israel when these a-holes launch over 1000 deadly rockets into civilian areas before Israel even responds. If the people of Gaza want peace they should reign in the butchers in their midst. Perhaps some other country would be happy to take in the terrorists? Maybe Egypt? Syria?

If Canadian or Mexican terrorists were launching rockets into our cities, and killing our civilians, I would sure hope our government would respond.

Not that any of this has anything to do with any religion.
Oh please. If another country blocked and/or controlled all access to our nation, didn't allow us to have an airport, set up sniper towers all around our borders and shoots to kill *anyone*, including children, whom approach the border wall and sinks fisherman's boats who dare venture too far offshore... I'm sure our response would be quite-quite worse than a few rockets assembled in basements. Then you mention slaughter? Did you not read what I posted?? *2000* Gazans dead, and *1* Israeli civilian dead. Who's doing the slaughtering?

Further the Israeli public actually sat up on the hilltops and cheered on the bombing off Gaza like complete animals. Only the Nazis have had a similar mentality to killing... Watch as you like...


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pFdBtZgnHlE

^THAT is being a sick sociopath. What in the hell did those 2000 Gazan civilians do to be murdered? What did those little kids watching the World Cup at the beach do to deserve a direct Israeli air strike to their face? What did the *UN HOSPITAL* do to deserve a bomb that blasted half the building off? And these sick sociopaths are really cheering that on? Unbelievable.
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Old 06-05-2015, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
That is sad and pathetic, and something I was not aware of. When there are murderers exist within Christian congregations, I have never heard of any such decree from a priest or minister to shield or protect them from justice. And if there were I would be among the first to condemn them. I would expect that other Muslims (including those on this site) would condemn that Imam.
Am Imam is not ordained clergy. the Imam was way out of line if he said that.

The functions of an imamam are to lead the 5 daily prayers

Keep the Mosque clean and be certain the utility bills are paid he is not supposed to:

Preach
Teach

Sadly some American Imams are trying to emulate the roles of Christian Pastors, Priests and Ministers.

Most American Mosques do not even have an Imam the oldest person present leads the prayers. the bills and building expenses are usually covered by the person who owns the Mosque. typically a mosque will be built by a wealthy local person or family. or sometimes several wealthy people pooling their resources. A Mosque is not a moneymaking venture as we do not tithe. American Mosques often get no financial support from anyone except the person or family that built the Mosque. contrary to popular belief, it is almost impossible for a Mosque to get any financial assistance from the al-Saud family.
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Old 06-05-2015, 06:27 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 772,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
it is disingenuous to claim "this has nothing to do with the topic of the religion of Islam" because Islam is political. Mosques are used for political purposes. There is no "separation of church and politics" within Islam because the stated goal of Islam is to not only obliterate Christianity and Judaism and all other religions, but also to destroy democracy. For Islam and for Muslims, religion and politics are inseparable and go hand in hand.

A recent example is when the two Muslim assassins were killed in Texas, the imam prayer leader of the mosque they attended in Arizona, instructed members of the mosque to not talk to the FBI, but instead to obstruct justice.
Complete *non-sense*. If it wasn't for Islam, Judaism would be much-much smaller today, if not existent at all. You're people had to have somewhere to run from the pogroms of Europe...At one point in the Ottoman Caliphate Chrisianity was the *majority* religion in the empire. If the goal was to violently eliminate them, that majority would have never occurred.
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Old 06-05-2015, 06:35 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 772,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
That is sad and pathetic, and something I was not aware of. When there are murderers exist within Christian congregations, I have never heard of any such decree from a priest or minister to shield or protect them from justice. And if there were I would be among the first to condemn them. I would expect that other Muslims (including those on this site) would condemn that Imam.
I would like to see the source. As I imagine like any other intelligent individual/group that the Imam instructed them to go through an attorney or CAIR so they can understand their rights when answering questions from law enforcement. I don't see a problem with said scenario, but Tzakhpiel tends to post things out of context when it addresses the point they are trying to get across.
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Old 06-05-2015, 10:03 PM
 
116 posts, read 67,644 times
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@ Toyman

Who tells someone they are wrong?---The people do....All good people must stand up and "enjoin what is good and forbid what is wrong" as the Quran says....individually and as groups.

It is not that complicated---The Quran says truth is clear from error---those that are misusing the Quran are ABUSING it.
For example---many in the U.S. have different ways of interpretating the U.S. constitution---when it was interpreted that women did not have the right to vote---good people stood up and said that was wrong! When the U.S. was abusing its minority citizens---Good people stood up and fought for civil rights....More recently, when the U.S. Justice system began abusing the citizens---police brutality, school to jail pipeline, discriminatory punishments by the judicial system....etc....Good people have stood up and complained....

As for shielding people from justice---It was alleged President Bush made arrangements for the Bin Laden families to leave the U.S. before they could be questioned!!!...google it...
In systems where "Justice" is by the privileged, for the privileged...injustice is bound to happen.....

This is what could happen in the U.S. if minority citizens are left unprotected....
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...nymous-smears/

There are plenty of toxic ideas out there---Do you think Islamophobia is right? ---You might think that vilifying a minority is ok because no one is killed?---but there are unseen costs to this kind of toxicity---the most vulnerable in society---the children---become the frontline victims of such toxicity---sure their wounds may not be seen---but their trauma is real.
Do we just stand back and say its alright? or do we have an obligation to say they are wrong? If people have the right to voice toxic ideas----then society has an obligation to say such ideas are wrong. That is the responsibility that comes with freedom.

You wrote---"The atheist doesn't expect to be rewarded with a spot in heaven, or with 72 virgins, or whatever positive afterlife his religion claims, for his evil acts by claiming they are done to honor God/Allah."

So, fighting for your "country" makes vile acts ok? fighting for "spreading democracy" is somehow ok because God is not involved? Patriotism and love of nation is fine but honor of God is not? These are very arbitrary value judgements. Basically you are saying that your way of justifying evil is fine and everyone else's justification is wrong!!! There should be a better way of judging morality/ethics than the basis "my way is always right and yours is always wrong".


You wrote---"If Canadian or Mexican terrorists were launching rockets into our cities, and killing our civilians, I would sure hope our government would respond."

Are you suggesting that violence should be countered with violence?---because that is the argument that Al-Qaeda is making---after all who is a terrorist?---America can be labeled a terrorist as well because it targets and kills innocent civilians ....!!!....

A world-view in which the other is always wrong no matter what they do but "we" are always right no matter what we do is one that is unlikely to yield a path to peace...because underlying this worldview is the idea that "we" are superior than "they"---a better way is to understand we are all one family---bani Adam....one humanity. That is the message of all religions---that is why religions provide a better way to peace than no religion. Religion gives us a vision towards peace, encouragement to humanity in its capacity for good and wisdom to Guide us on a better path.
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Old 06-05-2015, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
If those "underground paramilitary groups" would quit slaughtering and attempting to slaughter innocent Israelis, there would be no need for a "disproportionate response". Or any response. Hard to criticize the people of Israel when these a-holes launch over 1000 deadly rockets into civilian areas before Israel even responds. If the people of Gaza want peace they should reign in the butchers in their midst. Perhaps some other country would be happy to take in the terrorists? Maybe Egypt? Syria?

If Canadian or Mexican terrorists were launching rockets into our cities, and killing our civilians, I would sure hope our government would respond.

Not that any of this has anything to do with any religion.
Yet, a large number of Americans in the Border States are killed annually by Terrorists from Mexican Drug Cartels, Not by rockets but by beheading

Quote:
The signature crimes of the most violent drug cartel in Mexico are its beheading and dismemberment of rival gang members, military personnel, law enforcement officers and public officials, and the random kidnappings and killings of civilians who get caught in its butchery and bloodletting.
But this disparate band of criminals known as Los Zetas is no longer just a concern in Mexico. It has expanded its deadly operations across the southwestern border, establishing footholds and alliances in states from New York to California. Just last year, federal agents tied a cocaine operation in Baltimore to the Zetas.
Brutal Mexican drug gang crosses into U.S. - Washington Times

Should we bomb the bejabbers out of Mexico city everytime Los Zetas commit a Murder in the USA?

Los Zetas has killed more US citizens than Israelis killed by Hamas.

Total fatalities in the history of rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza into Israel: 44 - See more at: How many people have died from Gaza rockets into Israel? – Mondoweiss



But we have never retaliated against Mexico.

the retaliation against Gaza for rocket attacks by Hamas has killed thousands and totally obliterated entire cities.



Is it just to kill an entire population over the actions of some?



Just from recent air strikes:

Quote:
The Associated Press examined 247 airstrikes that -- according to witness accounts and site visits -- hit residential compounds, out of the some 5,000 Israeli strikes during the conflict. Its reporters compiled a detailed casualty count, determining 844 dead in those strikes.

AP Investigation Finds High Civilian Death Toll In Airstrikes On Homes In Gaza


If that is Justified, we are Justified to nuke all major Mexican cities because of the atrocities committed by Los Zetas




.
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