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Old 06-06-2015, 12:32 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post

SNIP--- If Canadian or Mexican terrorists were launching rockets into our cities, and killing our civilians, I would sure hope our government would respond.

-----SNIP
Do you really think we are going to retaliate and carpet bomb Mexico?

Quote:
War Breaks Out on Border: USA Chopper Fired at from Mexico -

(Breitbart) – Breitbart Texas has learned that a U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) helicopter was shot down or forced to initiate an emergency landing in Laredo, Texas due to receiving gunfire from the Mexican side of the border. The helicopter was interdicting a narcotics load and working alongside agents from the U.S. Border Patrol, who operate under the umbrella of the CBP. The helicopter was operating in the Laredo Sector of Texas, immediately across the border from the Los Zetas cartel headquarters of Nuevo Laredo, Mexico. -
War Breaks Out on Border: USA Chopper Fired at from Mexico - Tea Party News
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 06-07-2015 at 10:05 AM.. Reason: Just noticed I had typed thing instead of think--corrected my error
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Old 06-08-2015, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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IMO:

The central core of Islam is the Quran.
What speaks for Islam is the Quran itself in its totality [6236 verses] and ethos.

To put Islam in its correct perspective and understand its ethos we need to read it chronologically and where necessary together with the Sira and the Sunnah.

In this case what is most critical is the abrogation rule of the Quran, i.e.
2:106. Such of Our revelations as We abrogate or cause to beforgotten, we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things? [Pickthall]

To be a true Muslim one cannot compromise [cherry-pick] parts of the Quran and its ethos but one has to comply with the full extent of Allah's [most likely Muhammad's] immutable commands.

The Quran sets standards of performance, Muslims are exhorted to vie with one another and will be judged by the book on that DAY, and degrees of rewards are given in accordance to one's compliance as a Muslim.

Based chronologically and on the overriding abrogation rule of the Quran, I would say the fundamentalist Muslims from ISIS and the likes are the very true Muslims to the core. I would rate the Muslims of ISIS 8.9/9 with full compliance [of a checklists] to the Quran.

The so-called moderates are good Muslims with ratings from 1/9 to 5/9 but with the addition they are good human beings with higher regards for basic human dignity and human values like other average humans.
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Old 06-09-2015, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
IMO:

The central core of Islam is the Quran.
What speaks for Islam is the Quran itself in its totality [6236 verses] and ethos.

To put Islam in its correct perspective and understand its ethos we need to read it chronologically and where necessary together with the Sira and the Sunnah.

In this case what is most critical is the abrogation rule of the Quran, i.e.
2:106. Such of Our revelations as We abrogate or cause to beforgotten, we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things? [Pickthall]

To be a true Muslim one cannot compromise [cherry-pick] parts of the Quran and its ethos but one has to comply with the full extent of Allah's [most likely Muhammad's] immutable commands.

The Quran sets standards of performance, Muslims are exhorted to vie with one another and will be judged by the book on that DAY, and degrees of rewards are given in accordance to one's compliance as a Muslim.

Based chronologically and on the overriding abrogation rule of the Quran, I would say the fundamentalist Muslims from ISIS and the likes are the very true Muslims to the core. I would rate the Muslims of ISIS 8.9/9 with full compliance [of a checklists] to the Quran.

The so-called moderates are good Muslims with ratings from 1/9 to 5/9 but with the addition they are good human beings with higher regards for basic human dignity and human values like other average humans.
In my opinion the core of Islam is the Shahadah. The sincere belief that There is only one God(swt) and Muhammad(saws) is his final Messenger.

The Qur'an is not and never was intended to be read in Chronological order. As none of the Surat were dated we can only estimate the approximate dates of revelation. an explanation of the reason for the order can be read

HERE

Abrogation has been constant in all the revelations not just the Qur'an,. The Torah was superseded by the Zabbor (Psalms) which was superseded by the Injil (Gospel of Jesus) Which was superseded by the Qur'an and with each various books have been superceded as conditions or understandings changed.

The basic rules did not change, but the method of explaining has changed as people changed.


The Qur'an is a very simple message and can be summed up in 3 short surat The Qur'an is 114 books each revealed seperatly and some relating to a specific Event or specific people at a specific time.

Surah 2 was most likely revealed over a 3 or 4 year period it is very specific and actually contains 10 different revelations Some what related to each other but ver specific for a particular group of people.

Quote:
At the time of the revelation of Al-Baqarah, all sorts of hypocrites had begun to appear. Allah has, therefore, briefly pointed out their characteristics here. Afterwards when their evil characteristics and mischievous deeds became manifest, Allah sent detailed instructions about them.
Theme: Guidance

This Surah is an invitation to the Divine Guidance and all the stories, incidents etc., revolve round this central theme. As this Surah has particularly been addressed to the Jews, many historical events have been cited from their own traditions to admonish and advise them that their own good lies in accepting the Guidance revealed to the Holy Prophet. They should, therefore, be the first to accept it because it was basically]y the same that was revealed to Prophet Moses (Allah's peace be upon him).
For more information see HERE

I am not certain what you mean by the Sira I assume you are referring to Ishaq's " Sirat Rasoul Allah"

That is not considered scripture and does contain errors alond with the fact we do not know how much of Ishaq's writing remains in the current writing. But it is accepted it contains some fabrication and some unverified statements.

As for Sunnah there is no single source of Sunnah to follow Sunnah one needs to depend upon The Ahadith, The 4 Madhabs and the oral traditions of the Ummah.

There are levels of responsibility in following Sunnah

Quote:
Meaning: You have in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful example.[Q33:V21] One celebrated hadith says: ‘Whoever turns away from my Sunnah is not of me.’ [Al-Bukhari, no.5063; Muslim, no.1401]
No doubt, within the overall obligation of ittiba‘ – to “follow” or “emulate” him – there are certain matters where emulation is mandatory, and other places where it is highly encouraged and urged, but not obligated (there are even some matters recorded about his life that are just descriptive, not prescriptive). A sound knowledge of fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) should help distinguish between these levels of imitation and emulation. With that being so, believers try their best to conform to the prophetic example, and mold their lives in the light of his Sunnah, as far as possible. For it is in him that the human perfection is found and the beauty of behavior made manifest.
For more information see HERE

If youthink ISIS is following the Sunnah of Muhammad(saws), what parts of Muhammad(saws)'s Rules of war are they following?



Before engaging in battle, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) instructed his soldiers:

1. “Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.” (Sunan Abu Dawud)

2. “Do not practice treachery or mutilation.(Al-Muwatta)

3. Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees.(Al-Muwatta)

4. Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food.” (Al-Muwatta)

5. “If one fights his brother, [he must] avoid striking the face, for God created him in the image of Adam.” (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)

6. “Do not kill the monks in monasteries, and do not kill those sitting in places of worship. (Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal)

7. “Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle.” (Sahih Bukhari; Sunan Abu Dawud)

8. “Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy; pray to God to grant you security; but when you [are forced to] encounter them, exercise patience.” (Sahih Muslim)

9. “No one may punish with fire except the Lord of Fire.” (Sunan Abu Dawud).

10. “Accustom yourselves to do good if people do good, and to not do wrong even if they commit evil.” (Al-Tirmidhi)
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Old 06-09-2015, 09:23 PM
 
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In fact, Muhammed and his gang were brutal.

They attacked unarmed villages:

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)

Muhammed and his gang mass raped and then sold or enslaved the women after slaughtering their husbands, sons and fathers:

"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do coitus interruptus. A soul that which Allah has destined to exist will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

"Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham/Hisham 693)

Book 38, Number 4390:
Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:
I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubic) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.

Boys as young as 13 or 14 were slaughtered...and they were not in combat as there had been no combat!

I should mention that while the men were being slaughtered one woman literally lost her mind as her family was being killed. Aisha later recounted:

Abu Dawud Book 14, Number 2665: Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: “ No woman of Banu [tribe] Qurayzah was killed except one. She was with me, talking and laughing on her back and belly (extremely), while the Apostle of Allah . . . was killing her people with the swords. Suddenly a man called her name: Where is so-and-so? . . . I asked: What is the matter with you? She said: I did a new act. [Aisha] said: The man took her and beheaded her. [Aisha] said: I will not forget that she was laughing extremely although she knew that she would be killed.”

Maybe she was lucky. The other women were passed out as booty and raped and enslaved or sold.

Muhammed and his gang were brutal in battle. And they sure did not fight only in self defense!

llah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)

When the apostle raided a people he waited until the morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back; if he did not hear it he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night, and the apostle passed the night there; and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)

The Quran and hadiths are full of incitement to hate and terrorism every Muslim knows this. They are taught how to argue and if you learn the arguments you'll see the same ones are repeated over and over.

A terrible thing about Islam is that Muhammed raped a little 9 year old child...a 4th grader. And out of over 2,000 Muslims I have spoken with, NOT ONE will say that Muhammed was evil or even wrong to do such a thing. Muhammed gets a pass on rape, pedophilia, terrorism, slavery, selling women, hitting a child, having people slaughtered, torture....a pass from ALL Muslims.

ISIS is just following the Quran.

Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Qur’an 8:39 And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.

Qur’an 8:7 [Remember, O believers], when Allah promised you one of the two groups - that it would be yours - and you wished that the unarmed one would be yours. But Allah intended to establish the truth by His words and to eliminate the disbelievers

Qur’an 9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
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Old 06-10-2015, 01:09 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
In my opinion the core of Islam is the Shahadah. The sincere belief that There is only one God(swt) and Muhammad(saws) is his final Messenger.
The Shahadah is not the core of Islam, it is merely a declaration of the core of Islam, which should be the Quran, i.e.

1. The Quran - the absolute word of God is the core of Islam which declare the following;
2. There is no god but the one God - Allah
3. Muhammad is a messenger of God
4. Agree with the revelation of the Last Day and resurrection

Why the Quran is the core?
Without the Quran there is no 2, 3 and 4 above and the whole framework to support the religion of Islam.

The Shahadah is merely a declaration and belief, i.e. thinking, what a true Muslim must do and act is to submit, surrender, be a slave to allah and exercise the five pillars of Islam, plus obey Allah and Muhammad.

Quote:
The Qur'an is not and never was intended to be read in Chronological order. As none of the Surat were dated we can only estimate the approximate dates of revelation. an explanation of the reason for the order can be read
HERE
To rearrange the order to suit some human interests is corruption of the teachings. This is what Muhammad accused the Jews of doing.
If the revelations were revealed over 23 years, there must be a chronological element to it.
Since God is supposed to be omnipotent, why is God making it so difficult to find the exact timing and such a mess.
That prove the Quran was never from God.

From a hermeneutical approach, it is not difficult to arrange the surah in chronological order to its nearest approximation.
"hermeneutical" = cross checking with various variables, such as historical, history of Muhammad, anthropology human psychology, neuropsychology and many other perspectives.
I find most the sets of surah presented in chronological order by various scholar to be reasonable with a few exceptions.

Quote:
Abrogation has been constant in all the revelations not just the Qur'an,. The Torah was superseded by the Zabbor (Psalms) which was superseded by the Injil (Gospel of Jesus) Which was superseded by the Qur'an and with each various books have been superceded as conditions or understandings changed.

The basic rules did not change, but the method of explaining has changed as people changed.
True there is nothing wrong with abrogation.
What is significant with abrogation in the Quran is all the milder and less aggressive meccan verses, e.g. no compulsion, etc. are overridden by the 'sword verses' of the medina phase. To be a true Muslim one has to comply in priority with the later abrogated version.

The OT was abrogated by the NT. The critical moral principles of 'love your neighbor', 'love your enemies,' 'give your left cheek' 'love this' and 'love that' override most of the more aggressive and violent verses of the OT.


Quote:
The Qur'an is a very simple message and can be summed up in 3 short surat The Qur'an is 114 books each revealed seperatly and some relating to a specific Event or specific people at a specific time.

Surah 2 was most likely revealed over a 3 or 4 year period it is very specific and actually contains 10 different revelations Some what related to each other but ver specific for a particular group of people.

For more information see HERE
The essence of Islam can be summed up in Chapter 1 -Al Fatiha but unfortunately it is creamed off with a message of hatred in 1:7. Just imagine chapter 1 is repeated several times in the Muslim prayer every day and this subliminally develop hatred within the brain of most and vulnerable Muslims.

From what I read of Chapter 2, it is a summary of the whole of the soteriology of the Quran with some additional verses relating to social matters and the very unnecessary martial elements.

Quote:
I am not certain what you mean by the Sira I assume you are referring to Ishaq's " Sirat Rasoul Allah"

That is not considered scripture and does contain errors alond with the fact we do not know how much of Ishaq's writing remains in the current writing. But it is accepted it contains some fabrication and some unverified statements.
Yes, it is 'Sirat Rasoul Allah' and it is written by many other writers beside Ishaq. It is not reliable but reading it hermeneutically with the Quran provide some support to the chronological order of the Quran. Even without the Sira and Hadiths, it not too difficult to come up with a chronological order to the Quran based from the perspective of human nature, psychology, anthropology, philosophy of religion, history and other faculties of knowledge.

Quote:
As for Sunnah there is no single source of Sunnah to follow Sunnah one needs to depend upon The Ahadith, The 4 Madhabs and the oral traditions of the Ummah.

There are levels of responsibility in following Sunnah

For more information see HERE

If youthink ISIS is following the Sunnah of Muhammad(saws), what parts of Muhammad(saws)'s Rules of war are they following?
The Quran [partly] itself is bad enough thus I would not advocate the reliance of the Sira and Hadiths for a Muslims to adopt them in practice.

You seem to cherry pick those verses that you favor, note Confirmation Bias.

Juju has quoted from the hadiths, so I won't go into that. These evil verses from the hadiths are merely exaggeration from the Quran by Muslim zealots.



I have identified more than 300 verses that are influencing the jihadists [ISIS, Boko Haram, etc.] to war and commit terrible evils upon the Kafirs and the following are the top most critical ones;

1. The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray. 1:7
(this set the initial tone of hatred for Jews, Christians and other infidels, the evil prone will buy it)

2. Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph. 9:111

3. Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not. 2:216

4. Think not of those, who are slain in the way of Allah, as dead. Nay, they are living. With their Lord they have provision. 3:169

5. Fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearer, Knower. 2:244

6. Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain. 47:4

7. and 300+ war related verses, 9:5, 9:12, 9:29 .. and others plus 3000++ [thousands] negative and antagonistic verses directed at infidels.

Last edited by Continuum; 06-10-2015 at 01:20 AM..
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Shahadah is not the core of Islam, it is merely a declaration of the core of Islam, which should be the Quran, i.e.

1. The Quran - the absolute word of God is the core of Islam which declare the following;
2. There is no god but the one God - Allah
3. Muhammad is a messenger of God
4. Agree with the revelation of the Last Day and resurrection

Why the Quran is the core?
Without the Quran there is no 2, 3 and 4 above and the whole framework to support the religion of Islam.
The Shahadah is merely a declaration and belief, i.e. thinking, what a true Muslim must do and act is to submit, surrender, be a slave to allah and exercise the five pillars of Islam, plus obey Allah and Muhammad.
There is evidence in Surah 3 that the Shahadah predates the Qur'an. The Qur'an is not a new revelation everything revealed in the Qur'an was revealed to past Prophets(pbut)

3:16 (Asad) those who say, "O our Sustainer! Behold, we believe [in Thee]; forgive us, then, our sins, and keep us safe from suffering through the fire"
3:17 (Asad) those who are patient in adversity, and true to their word, and truly devout, and who spend [in God's way], and pray for forgiveness from their innermost hearts. [10]
3:18 (Asad) GOD [Himself] proffers evidence [11] - and [so do] the angels and all who are endowed with knowledge - that there is no deity save Him, the Upholder of Equity: there is no deity save Him, the Almighty, the Truly Wise.
3:19 (Asad) Behold, the only [true] religion in the sight of God is [man's] self-surrender unto Him; and those who were vouchsafed revelation aforetime [12] took, out of mutual jealousy, to divergent views [on this point] only after knowledge [thereof] had come unto them. [13] But as for him who denies the truth of God's messages - behold, God is swift in reckoning!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
To rearrange the order to suit some human interests is corruption of the teachings. This is what Muhammad accused the Jews of doing.
If the revelations were revealed over 23 years, there must be a chronological element to it.
Since God is supposed to be omnipotent, why is God making it so difficult to find the exact timing and such a mess.
That prove the Quran was never from God.
I discussed this in the stickey thread called Qur'an Group Study. It is the last post
http://www.city-data.com/forum/39782127-post397.html

And whenever a revelation came, the scribes were called and ‘…the Prophet told his scribes where to place a particular verse that was just revealed.’(Abu Dawood, At-Tirmidhî). It is also said in the Holy Qur’ân:
"(But We have revealed it) in this manner (- piece by piece out of necessity). And (in spite of the fact that it has not been revealed all at once,) We have arranged it in an excellent (form and order of) arrangement (and free of all contradictions) "(25:32). .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From a hermeneutical approach, it is not difficult to arrange the surah in chronological order to its nearest approximation.
"hermeneutical" = cross checking with various variables, such as historical, history of Muhammad, anthropology human psychology, neuropsychology and many other perspectives.
I find most the sets of surah presented in chronological order by various scholar to be reasonable with a few exceptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
True there is nothing wrong with abrogation.
What is significant with abrogation in the Quran is all the milder and less aggressive meccan verses, e.g. no compulsion, etc. are overridden by the 'sword verses' of the medina phase. To be a true Muslim one has to comply in priority with the later abrogated version.

The OT was abrogated by the NT. The critical moral principles of 'love your neighbor', 'love your enemies,' 'give your left cheek' 'love this' and 'love that' override most of the more aggressive and violent verses of the OT.
Except none of the "Peaceful Verses"were rendered null and void. They are still valid.
Abrogation in the Qur'an is often misunderstood by those who are under the assumption the ayyats (Verses) are commands.

Can you explain the concept of abrogation of verses in the Quran?
Haters of Islam today claim that peaceful verses that were revealed in Mecca were later abrogated by seemingly more militant verses in Medina. This claim is false and baseless.
Let us shed light on abrogation:
- Abrogation in the Quran occurred by the will of God and approval of Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w.) while he was still alive.
- Abrogation was part of revelation (or inspiration) from God to Prophet Mohammad. It is not up to any scholar to determine what should be abrogated.
- Abrogation affected only few verses.
- The verses that have been affected in each category of abrogation are known to Muslim scholars through the books of Hadith. The peaceful verses of Mecca have not been abrogated.

According to Egyptian Sheikh Abu Iss-haq Al-Huwaini, three categories of abrogation occurred:
1. Verses whose both mention in the Quran and injunctions were abrogated by God. This means such verses were revealed, but later excluded from Quran at the time of Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w.) because new verses replaced them. Additionally, the injunctions of these verses were abrogated and became no longer valid or effective.
2. Verses whose mention in the Quran was abrogated, but their injunctions remain effective and effective. This means such verses were revealed, but later excluded from Quran at the time of Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w.) because new verses replaced them. However, the injunctions of these verses remain valid and effective.
3. Verses whose mention in the Quran remains, but their injunctions were abrogated by God. This means such verses have remained included in the Quran by the will of God and approval of Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w.), despite the fact that their injunctions were abrogated and became no longer valid or effective.
Abrogation in Quran

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The essence of Islam can be summed up in Chapter 1 -Al Fatiha but unfortunately it is creamed off with a message of hatred in 1:7. Just imagine chapter 1 is repeated several times in the Muslim prayer every day and this subliminally develop hatred within the brain of most and vulnerable Muslims. .
How do you interpret ayyat 7 as promoting hatred?
al-Fatiha reads
1:1 (Asad) In the name of God, The Most Gracious, The Dispenser of Grace:

1:2 (Asad) All praise is due to God alone, the Sustainer of all the worlds,

1:3 (Asad) The Most Gracious, the Dispenser of Grace,

1:4 (Asad) Lord of the Day of Judgment!

1:5 (Asad) Thee alone do we worship; and unto Thee alone do we turn for aid.

1:6 (Asad) Guide us the straight way.

1:7 (Asad) The way of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, not of those who have been condemned [by Thee], nor of those who go astray!

Ayyat 6 and 7 are a pleas for all of mankind to ask God to lead us to heaven and not to go astray and end up in Hellfire. In reading translations one needs to keep in mind that anything in parentesis is not found in the Arabic. They are added opinions by the translator. The Translations of the Qur'an are not the Qur'an and as such are subject to error and/or translators opinions. Some early translators to English added (Jews and Christians) at the end of ayyat 7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From what I read of Chapter 2, it is a summary of the whole of the soteriology of the Quran with some additional verses relating to social matters and the very unnecessary martial elements..

Surah 2 is a series of unrelated discourses each revealed at different times and locations. What I under stand it was written over a 3 year of longer period with some discourses wererevealed in Mecca, some in Medinah and some on the Journey from Necca to Medinah.
Sequence

Though it is a Madani Surah, it follows naturally a Makki Surah Al- Fatihah, which ended with the prayer :"Show us the straight way". It begins with the answer to that prayer, "This is the Book (that) . . . is guidance. . ."

The greater part of Al-Baqarah was revealed during the first two years of the Holy Prophet's life at Al-Madinah. The smaller part which was revealed at a later period has been included in this Surah because its contents are closely related to those dealt with in this Surah. For instance, the verses prohibiting interest were revealed during the last period of the Holy prophet's life but have been inserted in this Surah. For the same reason, the last verses (284-286) of this Surah which were revealed at Makkah before the migration of the Holy Prophet to AI-Madinah have also been included in it.
Topics and their Interconnection

These introductory verses declare the Quran to be the Book of Guidance : enunciate the articles of the Faith -- belief in Allah, Prophethood and Life-after-death; divide mankind into three main groups with regard to its acceptance or rejection -- Believers, disbelievers and hypocrites. 1 - 20

Allah invites mankind to accept the Guidance voluntarily and to submit to Him, the Lord and the Creator of the Universe and to believe in the Quran, His Guidance, and in the Life-after-death. 21 - 29

The story of the appointment of Adam as Allah's Vicegerent on Earth, of his life in the Garden, of his falling a prey to the temptations of Satan, of his repentance and its acceptance, has been related to show to mankind (Adam's offspring), that the only right thing for them is to accept and follow the Guidance. This story also shows that the Guidance of Islam is the same that was given to Adam and that it is the original religion of mankind. 30 - 39

In this portion invitation to the Guidance has particularly been extended to the children of Israel and their past and present attitude has been criticised to show that the cause of their degradation was their deviation from the Guidance. 40 - 120

The Jews have been exhorted to follow Prophet Muhammad (Allah's peace be upon him) who had come with the same Guidance and who was a descendant and follower of Prophet Abraham whom they highly honoured as their ancestor, and professed to follow as a prophet. The story of the building of the Ka`abah by him has been mentioned because it was going to be made the qiblah of the Muslim Community. 121 - 141

In this portion, the declaration of the change of qiblah from the Temple (Jerusalem) to the Ka`abah (Makkah) has been made as a symbol of the change of leadership from the children of Israel to the Muslim Community, which has also been fore-warned to guard against those transgressions against the Guidance that had led to the deposition of the Jews. 142 - 152

In this portion practical measures have been prescribed to enable the Muslims to discharge the heavy responsibilities of the leadership that had been entrusted to them for the promulgation of Guidance. Salat, Fast, Zakat, Haj and Jihad have been prescribed for the moral training of the Ummat. The Believers have been exhorted to obey authority, to be just, to fulfill pledges, to observe treaties, to spend wealth etc., in the way of Allah. Laws, rules and regulations have been laid down for their organisation, cohesion and conduct of day-to-day life and for the solution of social, economic, political and international problems; on the other hand, drinking, gambling, lending money on interest etc., have been prohibited to keep the Ummat safe from disintegration. In between these, the basic articles of the Faith have been reiterated at suitable places, for these alone can enable and support one to stick to the Guidance. 153 - 251

These verses serve as an introduction to the prohibition of lending money on interest. The true conception of Allah, Revelation and Life-after-death has been emphasised to keep alive the sense of accountability. The stories of Prophet Abraham (Allah's peace be upon him) and of the one who woke up after a sleep of hundred years have been related to show that Allah is All-Powerful and is able to raise the dead and call them to account. The Believers, therefore, should keep this fact in view and refrain from taking interest on money. 252 - 260

The theme of 153 - 251 has been resumed and the Believers have been exhorted to spend in the way of Allah in order to please Him alone. In contrast to this, they have been warned against the evils of lending money on interest. Instructions have also been given for the honest conduct of day-to-day business transactions. 261 - 283

The basic articles of the Faith have been recapitulated here at the end of the Surah, just as they were enunciated at its beginning. Then the Surah ends with a prayer which the Muslim Community needed very much at that time when they were encountering untold hardships in the propagation of the Guidance. 284 - 286
For the full commentary read HERE Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Yes, it is 'Sirat Rasoul Allah' and it is written by many other writers beside Ishaq. It is not reliable but reading it hermeneutically with the Quran provide some support to the chronological order of the Quran. Even without the Sira and Hadiths, it not too difficult to come up with a chronological order to the Quran based from the perspective of human nature, psychology, anthropology, philosophy of religion, history and other faculties of knowledge.
The Problems with Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasoul Allah (Arabic for The Life of Messenger of Allah) and other Early sources of Islam and Prophet Muhammad (2009)

This is lengthy.
To read this critique of Ishaq go to the link
The-Problems-with-Ibn-Ishaq


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quran [partly] itself is bad enough thus I would not advocate the reliance of the Sira and Hadiths for a Muslims to adopt them in practice..
I usually tell people to not read the Ahadith without first completing a basic course in the "Science of Hadith) and learn at a minimum what a hadith is, How to trace the Isnad to the witness, How to verify chainns of narration and to know the Ahadith have varies levels of authenticity and reliability


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You seem to cherry pick those verses that you favor, note Confirmation Bias..
Unabashadly yes.

This is the Islamic forum, it was set up so that Muslim members can discuss their beliefs with other Muslims and non-Muslims can come and learn what different Muslim mebers believe. It was not intended to be a place to debate or critique Islam. The General Religious forum is for that purpose. The various Religous forums and the Atheiest/Agnostic forums are also for members of a specific forum can have a place to discuss with like minded people and non-adherents are welcome to come and see/learn what adherents actually believe unabashadly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Juju has quoted from the hadiths, so I won't go into that. These evil verses from the hadiths are merely exaggeration from the Quran by Muslim zealots..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have identified more than 300 verses that are influencing the jihadists [ISIS, Boko Haram, etc.] to war and commit terrible evils upon the Kafirs and the following are the top most critical ones;

1. The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray. 1:7
(this set the initial tone of hatred for Jews, Christians and other infidels, the evil prone will buy it)
2. Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph. 9:111
3. Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not. 2:216
4. Think not of those, who are slain in the way of Allah, as dead. Nay, they are living. With their Lord they have provision. 3:169
5. Fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearer, Knower. 2:244
6. Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain. 47:4
7. and 300+ war related verses, 9:5, 9:12, 9:29 .. and others plus 3000++ [thousands] negative and antagonistic verses directed at infidels.
I believe at various times every Muslim gets questioned about those ayyat without going into detail, not a one of them is a command to be obayed by all Muslims at all times.
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Old 06-14-2015, 12:38 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There is evidence in Surah 3 that the Shahadah predates the Qur'an. The Qur'an is not a new revelation everything revealed in the Qur'an was revealed to past Prophets(pbut)
The Shahadah is merely a declaration and of course believers of most prophets will make the same declarations directly and indirectly. There no complete Shahadah as a verse in the Quran it is a combination from various verses.
The Shahadah is not the core. What is core is often the main and central principles, themes and ethos to a religion. In the case of Islam it has to be the Quran which is the central core [the main trunk and roots] that support what is conventionally and specifically Islam.


Quote:
I discussed this in the stickey thread called Qur'an Group Study. It is the last post
http://www.city-data.com/forum/39782127-post397.html

And whenever a revelation came, the scribes were called and ‘…the Prophet told his scribes where to place a particular verse that was just revealed.’(Abu Dawood, At-Tirmidhî). It is also said in the Holy Qur’ân:
"(But We have revealed it) in this manner (- piece by piece out of necessity). And (in spite of the fact that it has not been revealed all at once,) We have arranged it in an excellent (form and order of) arrangement (and free of all contradictions) "(25:32). .
Despite the processes of the Hadiths, I will take them with a ladle of salt [i.e. unreliable].

Pickthall 25:32. And those who disbelieve say: Why is the Qur’an not revealed unto him all at once? (It is revealed) thus that We may strengthen thy heart therewith; and We have arranged it in right order.

25:32 could easily meant the right order is the chronological order. The most realistic order is the chronological order or as near to it as possible via the hermeneutical methods.

As for the current order, there is no mentioned of it in the Quran nor anywhere at all that why each surah should be where as it is in the current order. Obviously this unauthorized order is a corruption.

Quote:
Except none of the "Peaceful Verses"were rendered null and void. They are still valid.
Abrogation in the Qur'an is often misunderstood by those who are under the assumption the ayyats (Verses) are commands.

Abrogation in Quran
Yes the "peaceful verses" are still valid but where it counts and matters then the later verses overrides the earlier ones.
For example, there is a verse re 'No compulsion' but if there are later verses that implicitly or directly override such, then the later verses are effective.
Verses are the words of God [as stated as commands or otherwise] and thus has to be taken without compromise so that compliance will fulfill one's duty that enable the believer to have eternal life in heaven.


Quote:
How do you interpret ayyat 7 as promoting hatred?
al-Fatiha reads
1:1 (Asad) In the name of God, The Most Gracious, The Dispenser of Grace:

1:2 (Asad) All praise is due to God alone, the Sustainer of all the worlds,

1:3 (Asad) The Most Gracious, the Dispenser of Grace,

1:4 (Asad) Lord of the Day of Judgment!

1:5 (Asad) Thee alone do we worship; and unto Thee alone do we turn for aid.

1:6 (Asad) Guide us the straight way.

1:7 (Asad) The way of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, not of those who have been condemned [by Thee], nor of those who go astray!

Ayyat 6 and 7 are a pleas for all of mankind to ask God to lead us to heaven and not to go astray and end up in Hellfire. In reading translations one needs to keep in mind that anything in parentesis is not found in the Arabic. They are added opinions by the translator. The Translations of the Qur'an are not the Qur'an and as such are subject to error and/or translators opinions. Some early translators to English added (Jews and Christians) at the end of ayyat 7.
I understand the terms 'Jews' and 'Christians' were not included in the 1:7.
However, in context of that verse and the whole context of the Quran and Islam, those who were incurred Allah's 'anger' and 'wrath' were the Jews and those who went astray were the Christians.

The Day of Judgment is very serious to any believer and only God can bestowed eternal life. Therefore it is obvious believers will have very high bonding, loyalty and affinity with God. In verse 1:7 Allah highlighted there are negative people who are likely to hinder the believers' straight path to salvation and resurrection on Judgment Day.
[Verse 1 to 6 is good and effective enough, there is no necessity to add verse 7 at all except to add antagonism which is a morally bad move and thus contribute to instill hatred in some.]
When one read the whole of the Quran it is obvious the people referred therein Al Fatiha are the Jews and Christians respectively, if not, the ulema will highlight and brainwash their believers on it.
Like most ideologies, such negative points will naturally trigger hatred in followers towards the negative 'other'. Note the primal "us versus them" response.
As I said, this verse 1:7 sets the subliminally tone towards hatred for Jews and Christians and this is further reinforced by numerous other verses [3000++] of negative elements towards the infidels.
You [personally] may not buy it but it is likely 20% [=300 millions ] will manifest hatred for the Kuffar as Allah said, they are a potential in hindering their straight path to heaven. This is evident by so many Muslims hating Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims to the extent of committing terrible evils on the infidels [Kuffar].

Quote:
Surah 2 is a series of unrelated discourses each revealed at different times and locations. What I under stand it was written over a 3 year of longer period with some discourses wererevealed in Mecca, some in Medinah and some on the Journey from Necca to Medinah.
Sequence
There are many interpretation of Surah 2. As I read it, it is a mini Quran, i.e. comprising, God is great, certainty of Quran, condemnation of Infidels, war on Infidels, Worship true God, story of rejection of Moses and other prophets, Muhammad as prophet, abrogation, Qibla, food limits, retaliation, bequests, fasting, pilgrimage, fight for Allah, resurrection, charity, usury, debts, etc.
Don't think you can dispute this perspective.

Quote:
The Problems with Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasoul Allah (Arabic for The Life of Messenger of Allah) and other Early sources of Islam and Prophet Muhammad (2009)

This is lengthy.
To read this critique of Ishaq go to the link
The-Problems-with-Ibn-Ishaq
I mentioned somewhere I am not referring to only Ishaq's book but there are many other writers. The Sira is not the most critical like the Quran but since Muhammad is proclaimed to the perfect model for mankind, it is inevitable SOME Muslims will attempt to adopt his living style from the Sira.

Quote:
I usually tell people to not read the Ahadith without first completing a basic course in the "Science of Hadith) and learn at a minimum what a hadith is, How to trace the Isnad to the witness, How to verify chainns of narration and to know the Ahadith have varies levels of authenticity and reliability
I am familiar with the "Science of the Hadith." Even with such a process there is still room for corruption due to the time gap and other factors. As one read the Hadiths, one will note there are some reasonable ones, but there are others that outright absurd and even insulting to the prophet and Islam.


Quote:
This is the Islamic forum, it was set up so that Muslim members can discuss their beliefs with other Muslims and non-Muslims can come and learn what different Muslim mebers believe. It was not intended to be a place to debate or critique Islam. The General Religious forum is for that purpose. The various Religous forums and the Atheiest/Agnostic forums are also for members of a specific forum can have a place to discuss with like minded people and non-adherents are welcome to come and see/learn what adherents actually believe unabashadly.
As with most forum on religions, I think it is most appropriate for each specific section to deal with whatever is related to the specific religion, i.e. the pros as well as the cons.
I understand there are pros and cons of Islam. I am personally interested in discussing the cons of Islam while others can discuss the pros.

Last edited by Continuum; 06-14-2015 at 01:08 AM..
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Old 06-14-2015, 01:23 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
1. The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray. 1:7
(this set the initial tone of hatred for Jews, Christians and other infidels, the evil prone will buy it)

2. Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph. 9:111

3. Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not. 2:216

4. Think not of those, who are slain in the way of Allah, as dead. Nay, they are living. With their Lord they have provision. 3:169

5. Fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearer, Knower. 2:244

6. Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain. 47:4

7. and 300+ war related verses, 9:5, 9:12, 9:29 .. and others plus 3000++ [thousands] negative and antagonistic verses directed at infidels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I believe at various times every Muslim gets questioned about those ayyat without going into detail, not a one of them is a command to be obeyed by all Muslims at all times.
Note I am not presenting the above as individual verses to be acted upon.

What I had presented are examples of various verses representing a set and standard pattern that drive SOME Muslims to commit evil upon the Kuffar or infidels.
There are 3000++ verses that can fit into the above pattern brewing an evil ethos that is directed against infidels.

It is the totality of all these evil verses that are imbued in SOME evil prone Muslims that cause them to influence others of like mind to commit evils against infidels.
Note this, it is reality by many thousands not a few mad people in one corner of the world.



Even very small children are influenced by the said evils.
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