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Old 06-04-2015, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
That's an injunction directly from Allah (swt) in the Quran. It has nothing to do with what our feelings are or what we *feel* is good...the order is given and we submit.
So you support injustice and religious bigotry since it is....decreed? I do wonder (can't say that I've ever researched it), are Muslims and other non-Catholics allowed in Rome?
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
So you support injustice and religious bigotry since it is....decreed? I do wonder (can't say that I've ever researched it), are Muslims and other non-Catholics allowed in Rome?
If you've accepted God as being true, that his messenger is Muhammad (saw) and that his book is the Quran...then one must accept what is sent down. Your question is a loaded one as it assumes that the law of Islam is "bigoted and injustice" where as we don't accept our law as being that.
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Old 06-04-2015, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
So you support injustice and religious bigotry since it is....decreed? I do wonder (can't say that I've ever researched it), are Muslims and other non-Catholics allowed in Rome?
In Rome yes, but not necessarily in Vatican City. While Vatican City is located in Rome it is a Nation on it's own. the smallest UN Member Nation. But still a separate nation and not part of Italy or the city of Rome.

Parts of Vatican City are not open to non-Catholics and some parts are accessible only to the Pope and Cardinals.

There are only 2 places in all the Islamic nations that non-Muslims are not permitted, Mecca and Medinah. Both quite small in area, both are in isolated regions with limited access to. Both do have nearby Airports now and it is possible to go by plane from Riyadh

While ground travel is used by most, it is a very uncomfortable journey and can be quite dangerous if a sand storm hits.

Nearly all visitors to Mecca are there for Ummrah or Hajj. both very somber and serious with no time for sight-seeing or any activities not related to worship..

It is expect that the new al-Haraaim Railway from Mecca to Madinah will make Madinah more accessable to Muslim Tourists.

At the present time it can befficult to get to Medinah and there are very limited accomadations for tourists. to be certain of having a room it is best to make rservations 5 years in advance.

Every religion has things or places that are prohibited to non-Adherents. It is not bigotry, simply privelages allotted to members only.

I do not belong to the Local County Golf club and have no plans to join, is it bigotry that I can not play on their golf course?
























actually there are not many visitors to Medinah.
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Old 06-04-2015, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,652 posts, read 17,695,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
In Rome yes, but not necessarily in Vatican City. While Vatican City is located in Rome it is a Nation on it's own. the smallest UN Member Nation. But still a separate nation and not part of Italy or the city of Rome.

Parts of Vatican City are not open to non-Catholics and some parts are accessible only to the Pope and Cardinals.

There are only 2 places in all the Islamic nations that non-Muslims are not permitted, Mecca and Medinah. Both quite small in area, both are in isolated regions with limited access to. Both do have nearby Airports now and it is possible to go by plane from Riyadh

While ground travel is used by most, it is a very uncomfortable journey and can be quite dangerous if a sand storm hits.

Nearly all visitors to Mecca are there for Ummrah or Hajj. both very somber and serious with no time for sight-seeing or any activities not related to worship..

It is expect that the new al-Haraaim Railway from Mecca to Madinah will make Madinah more accessable to Muslim Tourists.

At the present time it can befficult to get to Medinah and there are very limited accomadations for tourists. to be certain of having a room it is best to make rservations 5 years in advance.

Every religion has things or places that are prohibited to non-Adherents. It is not bigotry, simply privelages allotted to members only.

I do not belong to the Local County Golf club and have no plans to join, is it bigotry that I can not play on their golf course?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but are not Mecca and Medina (Madhiah) actual cities or at least municipalities? Would it be appropriate for any town that wants to to arbitrarily ban members of a specific religion? Say, for example if the mayor of NYC decided he were to ban Muslims from the city? Just me, but I would say that that is wrong, both morally and legally. If an individual church/mosque/whatever owns a specific piece of real estate, and especially a specific building, they are perfectly welcome to allow or ban whoever they like. No different than a business owner (who owns a building the business is in) that wants to ban all members of a certain religion, he should be able to. But to say you have to be members of a specific club to even go into a certain municipality? An entire city? That is a large stretch. Should Israel ban non-Jews from entering Jerusalem? Yes, it is bigotry. There is legitimate history in Mecca and Medina that appeals to non-members of the club of Islam.

Last edited by Toyman at Jewel Lake; 06-04-2015 at 05:35 PM..
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Old 06-04-2015, 05:09 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 771,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
Please correct me if I am wrong, but are not Mecca and Medina (Madhiah) actual cities or at least municipalities? Would it be appropriate for any town that wants to to arbitrarily ban members of a specific religion? Say, for example if the mayor of NYC decided he were to ban Muslims from the city? Just me, but I would say that that is wrong, both morally and legally. If an individual church/mosque/whatever owns a specific piece of real estate, and especially a specific building, they are perfectly welcome to allow or ban whoever they like. No different than a business owner (who owns a building the business is in) that wants to ban all members of a certain religion, he should be able to. But to say you have to be members of a specific club to even go into a certain municipality? An entire city? That is a large stretch. Should Israel ban non-Jews from entering Jerusalem? Yes, it is bigotry. There is legitimate history in Mecca and Medina that appeal to non-members of the club of Islam.
It is a specific command from Allah (swt) in the Quran to keep non-believers out of Mecca. It is not *our* choice.
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Old 06-04-2015, 05:33 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,652 posts, read 17,695,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
It is a specific command from Allah (swt) in the Quran to keep non-believers out of Mecca. It is not *our* choice.
You can chose to reject bigotry. It however takes courage to do what is moral and just, rather than what is commanded.
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Old 06-04-2015, 05:37 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 771,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
You can chose to reject bigotry. It however takes courage to do what is moral and just, rather than what is commanded.
Morality for the Muslim (one whom submits to Allah (swt)) *is* what Allah (swt) has ordained. Rather it takes courage to stand by one's faith and principles rather than submit to the whims and desires of the times.
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Old 06-04-2015, 05:52 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,652 posts, read 17,695,676 times
Reputation: 15714
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Morality for the Muslim (one whom submits to Allah (swt)) *is* what Allah (swt) has ordained. Rather it takes courage to stand by one's faith and principles rather than submit to the whims and desires of the times.
Seems like the KKK uses similar arguments.
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Old 06-04-2015, 07:05 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 771,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
Seems like the KKK uses similar arguments.
Unfortunately for them God saw to it that they didn't stand by the test of time, while Islam's 1.6 Billion Muslims are only growing.
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Old 06-04-2015, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
Please correct me if I am wrong, but are not Mecca and Medina (Madhiah) actual cities or at least municipalities? Would it be appropriate for any town that wants to to arbitrarily ban members of a specific religion? Say, for example if the mayor of NYC decided he were to ban Muslims from the city? Just me, but I would say that that is wrong, both morally and legally. If an individual church/mosque/whatever owns a specific piece of real estate, and especially a specific building, they are perfectly welcome to allow or ban whoever they like. No different than a business owner (who owns a building the business is in) that wants to ban all members of a certain religion, he should be able to. But to say you have to be members of a specific club to even go into a certain municipality? An entire city? That is a large stretch. Should Israel ban non-Jews from entering Jerusalem? Yes, it is bigotry. There is legitimate history in Mecca and Medina that appeals to non-members of the club of Islam.
While Mecca and Medina are cities, they are not private owned. You have to view them as being a large Religious compound. Completly owned by the world's Muslims--Sunni, Shi'ite, Sunni, Ismaili etc.

Both Mecca and Medina are in Hijaz. A state that Muslims do not acknowledge as being under Saudi Arabia Rule.Although the al-Saud Family conquered the entire Arabian peninsula in 1929 the world's Muslims were /are highly upset over The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia occupying the most sacred land in Islam.

For the most part Hijaz is Barren desert. It has no agriculture or sustainable resources There are only 5 Cities in Hijaz. (Tabuk, Yanbo. Mecca, Medinah,.and Jedda.)



To put the map in perspective it is 54 miles of barren desert from Jedda to Mecca.

Only Mecca and Medina are closed to non-Muslims. the entire source of income for Mecca and Medina are Muslims on pilgrimage there is no industry or natural resources in Mecca and Medinah. the only sources of income is making and selling religious souvenirs along with providing lodging and food for Pilgrims.

An arial view of Mecca. The original walled city is completely contained within the Mosque. Surrounding the Mosque are Hotels, restaurants a few general stores and apartments for the 2.5 Million service workers that care for the Mosque and operate the stores, hotels and restaurants.



For all purposes every Muslim is a part owner of Mecca and Medinah and the permanent residents are our employees. The typical cost of the typical 12 day pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina is $6,000 per person. the price is the same for Ummrah or Hajj. That includes basic room expenses and food plus air travel between the 3 cities.





.
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