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Old 05-30-2015, 04:44 AM
 
116 posts, read 67,377 times
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I disagree---about racism....

Grouping people into "race" is a (relatively) recent (artificial) Western concept---probably arising from "scientism" (Science + ism) (--see----Meiners and Blumenbach)

In very general terms---Arabs and "Arayans"(Persians) were not best friends---nor are they today....but in pre-modern times, the division would have been ethnic/tribal not racial---based on tribal affiliation and not "racial" category.

Its complicated---Aryans means a civilized/noble people and Persians were a sophisticated people...but there were Persian Muslims helping the Prophet(pbuh) this is because Islam had the concept of the "Ummah"---where affiliation is not based on tribal/ethnic but on the "deen"(Islam). Today's rhetoric of Shia/Sunni difference is likely based on today's politcal circumstances.....
Persia converted to Shia in the Safavid dynasty in opposition to the Ottomans. (Some Shia communities did exist but Persia was majority Sunni before the Safavids) The Safavids were themselves originally Sufi....by this time Shia (originally understood as "party of Ali"/Shiat Ali) were distinct traditions---not just a political stand.

Shia/Shait Ali were Arabs---The early division did not occur just because of a dispute between which in-law would succeed, rather on the method of "legitimate" succession---selected vs hereditary(Family)---in other words, it was politically important.....This dispute about how to legitimize the ruler/leader is still important and in play today---for Ex the King of Jordan claims descent from the family of the Prophet(pbuh). To claim illegitimacy of a ruler is a tool of political opposition...which is why it can be a threat to some Sunni leaders (not all). This was not the only opposition to Caliph Abu Bakr---in the Ridda wars---a couple of others tried to claim"Prophethood" in order to legitimize their rule---that failed.....Later dynasties such as the Abbasids, the Fatimids...also claimed decent from the "Family"---Apparently Saddam Hussein re-wrote his family tree to claim decent from the "family"....

The Wahabists that are targeting Shia (such as ISIS) are also targeting Sufi and any other "Muslim" who does not agree with them....Saudi Arabia (which is Wahabi) is against Iran (which is Shia) for political reasons---probably fearing unrest and opposition from Saudi Shia's who are concentrated in the oil rich regions of Saudi Arabia(apparently about 15% of Saudi Arabs)....Also, (IMO) the House of Saud gets its legitimacy as rulers from the Wahabis......

To characterize Sunni/Shia divisions as "2000 years of animosity" is hyperbole and a simplistic view of history...?.....on the other hand---these divisions are definitely exploited for political purposes, by both groups, (today and in history) and to ignore that would also be unwise.....
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Old 05-30-2015, 01:56 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 768,938 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessxwrites89 View Post
You and Woodrow are 100% correct. I wish you two could collaborate on writing a book because you both explain so well and simply. I think a book would help a lot of people understand at least somewhat.

I never really understood the differences until five years ago. It seems like it's just like other groups of people - old conflicts that are never resolved bubble and cause tension. However, like Woodrow said, outside of certain regions in the Middle East, there is no conflict - Dearborn, MI is an example.
Thank you brother! But I'm certainly no scholar so I wouldn't be comfy writing a book on the subject... Woodrow however should go for it
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Old 05-30-2015, 01:59 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 768,938 times
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That could be true for the recent immigrants but I doubt it is true for those whose families have been here for 3 or more generations.
This is true but even for recent immigrants this is doubtful. Outside of a few very small pockets, Islamic countries tend to be exclusively Sunni. For instance a Muslim immigrant from Indonesia, North Africa or Jordan probably hasn't even encountered a Shi'a in his home country.
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Old 05-30-2015, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
This is true but even for recent immigrants this is doubtful. Outside of a few very small pockets, Islamic countries tend to be exclusively Sunni. For instance a Muslim immigrant from Indonesia, North Africa or Jordan probably hasn't even encountered a Shi'a in his home country.
all true. The only off the beaten track I have encountered in any number are Sufi, However they also claim to be Sunni.
I followed the Sufi path for my first year or so as a Muslim very interesting. But like all people they can be very diverse, most Sufi in the US do tend to be Sunni but follow Sufi as a Madhab. Not exactly the "Whirling Dervish" You find in Morocco or Turkey.

Arab Muslims are very rare in the USA Most Arabs you meet here will be Christians, usually Coptics from Egypt or Eastern Orthodox from the Arabian Peninsula Some Roman Catholic from Lebanon and Joerdan. ie-- Think Danny Thomas and his family.
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Old 05-30-2015, 04:55 PM
 
Location: Big Island of Hawaii & HOT BuOYS Sailing Vessel
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Another good analysis can be found in this article


ISIS Sets Its Sights on Saudi Arabia, and That

Notice conflict is seen as two political parties competing in the region for goals of man instead of goals of man's soul.

This type of article breaks it down into a simple conflict between two hostile nations.

One interesting thing I read here is "secret" communications between the House of Saud and Israel. So while the public position is Israel doen't exist, is not even on military maps, the House has a direct line.

This article also helps show why the US will not be critical. The Saudis help keep the whole area in check.

When the government is using religion as a tool to control the population, all most people will focus on is tiny differences. So with a Saudi support of one group and an Iranian group of another the peons who act do not do so in the name of religion. They act as the hand of the political leaders.

Breaking this lock between State and Church has been a goal of the US.
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Old 05-31-2015, 05:31 AM
 
Location: Candy Kingdom
3,228 posts, read 2,852,261 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Thank you brother! But I'm certainly no scholar so I wouldn't be comfy writing a book on the subject... Woodrow however should go for it
Female here.

Ah, yes, maybe we should encourage Woodrow to write a book. I would definitely buy it for myself and buy a copy to donate to the library I work for. I find Woodrow's knowledge to be enlightening and wish we could sticky all of his posts for everyone to read to understand.
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:47 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessxwrites89 View Post
Female here.

Ah, yes, maybe we should encourage Woodrow to write a book. I would definitely buy it for myself and buy a copy to donate to the library I work for. I find Woodrow's knowledge to be enlightening and wish we could sticky all of his posts for everyone to read to understand.
Thank You for the flattery.

However, I am not a Scholar. I still have much to learn.

Having been non-Muslim for 65 years and during that time a very avid disbeliever of Islam I have the advantage of having asked many of the common questions.

For many reasons I would never author a book under my name, but I could be coaxed into doing such in collaboration with a recognized scholar.--
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Old 05-31-2015, 08:13 PM
 
4,409 posts, read 1,639,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Thank You for the flattery.

However, I am not a Scholar. I still have much to learn.

Having been non-Muslim for 65 years and during that time a very avid disbeliever of Islam I have the advantage of having asked many of the common questions.

For many reasons I would never author a book under my name, but I could be coaxed into doing such in collaboration with a recognized scholar.--
May be you could author your biography? ..I think that will be very Intesting.
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Old 06-01-2015, 03:55 AM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado
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Shia and Sunni Islam are considerably different and have completely different views about Mohammad and Prophet descendants.. Almost like a ladder day prophets. The Shias honor Ali as another prophet, whereas Sunnis only looked to Mohammad as the last prophet. As well, the Shias believe in a Messiah, the Mahdi who will help establish a Shia dominated ruler on Earth. This can somewhat be seem to correlate with the belief of a JEwish Messiah ruling in Jerusalem. I am no scholar, but this is just a very quick and easy overview in why Sunnis and Shias hate each other. They basically have two different views of a religion that share the same theology and scriptures. What the Shias believe is considered harem to the Sunnis and vice versa. The Sunnis, especially, being the conquerors of the Aryan nation did not take kindly of a new Islamic sect arising which was a direct response to make Islam more palatable to the Persian people as well as embed more of their Zartosht (Zoroastrian) ancestry into the Islamic religion. They basically had a great disdain and disgust for Arabic culture, language and the ancient Pre-Islamic Arabic traditions that were also ingrained within Sunni Islam..
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Old 06-01-2015, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RotseCherut View Post
Shia and Sunni Islam are considerably different and have completely different views about Mohammad and Prophet descendants.. Almost like a ladder day prophets. The Shias honor Ali as another prophet, whereas Sunnis only looked to Mohammad as the last prophet. As well, the Shias believe in a Messiah, the Mahdi who will help establish a Shia dominated ruler on Earth. This can somewhat be seem to correlate with the belief of a JEwish Messiah ruling in Jerusalem. I am no scholar, but this is just a very quick and easy overview in why Sunnis and Shias hate each other. They basically have two different views of a religion that share the same theology and scriptures. What the Shias believe is considered harem to the Sunnis and vice versa. The Sunnis, especially, being the conquerors of the Aryan nation did not take kindly of a new Islamic sect arising which was a direct response to make Islam more palatable to the Persian people as well as embed more of their Zartosht (Zoroastrian) ancestry into the Islamic religion. They basically had a great disdain and disgust for Arabic culture, language and the ancient Pre-Islamic Arabic traditions that were also ingrained within Sunni Islam..
True to a large extent but some parts need clarification.



sunni do believe in a Mas'ah (Messiah) we belive it is Jesus(as) and he did not complete his life on Earth. He will return and with the Mehdi will destroy the Anti-Christ and establish the final Caliphate.

Shi'ism was established well before the conquest of Persia. Persia did not Shi'ism accept it widely until
about the year 1524

The Current 12er sect and the ayatollahs did not come into prominences until the Ayatollah Khomeini in the 1970s.
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