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Old 06-12-2015, 07:30 AM
 
89 posts, read 52,685 times
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One of the claims in Christian apologetics that Jesus' post-Resurrection physical appearances to multiple witnesses were real events is that the apostles were willing to risk severe persecution for their claims. The underlying idea is that facing persecution shows that the witnesses are sincere about the miracles. So, my question is whether in the history of Shia or Sufi Muslims, groups of Muslims have claimed miracles while also under severe persecution.

I am looking for cases that would fit three criteria:
(1) About a dozen people claimed to witness a scientifically inexplicable event
(2) The witnesses would know if the event was real or a fabrication. It would not be a naturally explicable event or a delusion.
(3) The witnesses risked severe persecution for their claims or sect

My goal is to learn more about the history of miracles in Sufi and Shia Islam, and also to see if this line of argument is correct and can apply to Islam as well (not just Christianity). There might be cases in Islam that fit this criteria, but I just don't know enough about it to tell. I read about Mohammed's miracles, but I am really looking for miracles that came later among the specifically Shia or Sunni communities.
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Old 06-12-2015, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakovskii View Post
One of the claims in Christian apologetics that Jesus' post-Resurrection physical appearances to multiple witnesses were real events is that the apostles were willing to risk severe persecution for their claims. The underlying idea is that facing persecution shows that the witnesses are sincere about the miracles. So, my question is whether in the history of Shia or Sufi Muslims, groups of Muslims have claimed miracles while also under severe persecution.

I am looking for cases that would fit three criteria:
(1) About a dozen people claimed to witness a scientifically inexplicable event
(2) The witnesses would know if the event was real or a fabrication. It would not be a naturally explicable event or a delusion.
(3) The witnesses risked severe persecution for their claims or sect

My goal is to learn more about the history of miracles in Sufi and Shia Islam, and also to see if this line of argument is correct and can apply to Islam as well (not just Christianity). There might be cases in Islam that fit this criteria, but I just don't know enough about it to tell. I read about Mohammed's miracles, but I am really looking for miracles that came later among the specifically Shia or Sunni communities.
I am not aware of having seen any Sufis post here. However being Sufi does not mean they cannot be Sunni. Many sufi profess to be Sunni. Being Sufi is basically a methodoligyand is not limited to any specific religion. There are Sufis that profess to be Buddhist and some that profess to be of no religion. there are also Sufi that do profess to be a religion seperate from Islam.

I do not think you will find get any resonses from any practicing Sufi.

We do Have at least one Shi'ite and at least one Ahmaiyyah that post here. You may get some input from them
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Old 06-12-2015, 01:57 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,127 times
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The term "Sufi" is one that encompasses a very large brush of people. There are Sufis whom are Muslim, Sufis whom profess to Islam but have negated their Islam from actions that take one out of the fold of Islam (Saint worship, praying to graves, believing modern day Sufi-Shaykhs have divine powers, etc...), and there are some whom as Woodrow stated don't profess to Islam in the first place.

I don't know if some of them have come up with "miracles" by their saints due to persecution but I do know that some of them claim that certain Sufi Saints have performed miracles. Some stories I've heard are Saint's walking on water across the med sea, teleporting from Cairo to Mecca and back, and being able to answer the questions from God and the Angels that one is asked in the grave and so forth.
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
The term "Sufi" is one that encompasses a very large brush of people. There are Sufis whom are Muslim, Sufis whom profess to Islam but have negated their Islam from actions that take one out of the fold of Islam (Saint worship, praying to graves, believing modern day Sufi-Shaykhs have divine powers, etc...), and there are some whom as Woodrow stated don't profess to Islam in the first place.

I don't know if some of them have come up with "miracles" by their saints due to persecution but I do know that some of them claim that certain Sufi Saints have performed miracles. Some stories I've heard are Saint's walking on water across the med sea, teleporting from Cairo to Mecca and back, and being able to answer the questions from God and the Angels that one is asked in the grave and so forth.
I came acoss some Sfis in Morocco, mostly the whiling Dervishes.

But there are very many out right frauds that misuse both Islam and Sufi. Lots of the Moroccan "Fortune Tellers" "Magicians" "Spirit Mediums" etc claimed to be Sufi.

I did follow the Sufi Path my first year as a Muslim, mainly because of the poetry of Rumi. I soon left that path because of the "Veneration of Saints"
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Old 06-12-2015, 09:26 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I came acoss some Sfis in Morocco, mostly the whiling Dervishes.

But there are very many out right frauds that misuse both Islam and Sufi. Lots of the Moroccan "Fortune Tellers" "Magicians" "Spirit Mediums" etc claimed to be Sufi.

I did follow the Sufi Path my first year as a Muslim, mainly because of the poetry of Rumi. I soon left that path because of the "Veneration of Saints"
You did a good thing by leaving behind the labels brother. All we need is "Muslim".
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Old 06-12-2015, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
You did a good thing by leaving behind the labels brother. All we need is "Muslim".
Thank you Brother. You are correct. However I often do use the labels as a means of clarification.

the reality is the only thing all Muslims have in common are the 5 Pillars. We only need to be concerned if we are following them to the best of our ability.

The simple fact is that because we have no central earthly leader, we either have no valid label or all 1.7 billion of us have our own individual label. Logic dictates labels are not valid for us.
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Old 06-13-2015, 08:22 AM
 
89 posts, read 52,685 times
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Thank you for all your responses, which showed that Sufis believe in paranormal activities like believing in divine powers. Would you happen to know if there were claims about this made when Sufis were under persecution?
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakovskii View Post
Thank you for all your responses, which showed that Sufis believe in paranormal activities like believing in divine powers. Would you happen to know if there were claims about this made when Sufis were under persecution?
I have not hear of any. I checked a few Sufi sites to see if I could find anything but came up empty handed, Sorry
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