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Old 06-15-2015, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Now that Ramadan is upon us, I wanted to find out a bit more about about 'Ramadan Rage' a term used to describe the upturn in Muslim violence during Ramadan.

Ramadan is supposed to be a time when "the devils are chained up", and Muslims are expected to show self-control, humility and submission to Allah, who created the universe. I was confused about the need for fasting.....not eating makes ME cranky. So I did some research and it seems that Muslims are actually more violent than usual during Ramadan. Here are some examples:
There are pros in Islam but Islam [in part] contain malignant and evil elements that catalyze SOME Muslims to commit evil.

Ramadan is supposed to create awareness in a Muslim to be more Islamic.
Since Islam [in part] contain catalysts that are evil, it is inevitable SOME Muslims will be triggered to commit violence.
A similar pattern of demonstration and violence [by SOME] is seen after the Friday prayers.

IMO, for SOME Muslims fasting is a farce.
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Old 06-15-2015, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Crime and violent crime have an upsurge around holiday seasons of *all* religions. Research violent crime upsurges in the USA as well as petty theft, retail crime and robbery from Thanksgiving to Christmas...the increase is highly notable. This also occurs near the Hindu Diwali festivals in India. The phenomenon is not entirely understood but some sociologists have posited that the combination of economic factors, citizens being more "out" in public life, and other factors lead to this.

Note, the OP will simply ignore the above and disagree because he's an Islamaphobe and was most likely banned from this forum long ago, only to return under a new name. I write this post strictly for other readers and will not respond to the OP as that person will disagree to the end of time.
There may be an upsurge of violence during holiday seasons but almost all [other than Islamic related ones] are not motivated and inspired by religious texts. These people are acting based on their own human nature.

The notable violence from SOME Muslims during Ramadan and after Friday prayers are influenced by verses from the Quran, Hadiths and Sira.

Via the principles of the Normal Curve, it is likely there may be perverted Islamaphobes but I have not come across any yet.
I believe the OP's case is not related to Islamaphobia [irrational fears of Islam] but based on real fears generated from real evidence of very noticeable violence by SOME Muslims acting upon very obvious violent laden verses from the Quran, Hadiths and Sira.

I would declare myself an Islam-fearing person based on rational solid evidence that Islam per se [in part] and when believed by SOME Muslims indeed and factually generate fears and terrors upon non-Muslims labeled as infidels and Kuffar.

Note
3:151. We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve [kuffar, infidels] because they ascribe unto Allah partners [idols and deities], for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong doers. [mine]
The fact is some Muslims who claim to be truer Muslims acted out the above verses in reality and the evidence of their terror is so glaring. So it is only naturally that I would be fearful just in case I encounter not any Muslims but such extremist Muslims.
If I were to visit the Pyramids at present, there is a good chance I might be bombed or beheaded by Islamic jihadists. It can also happen anywhere in US in a marathon, basketball game, any sport occasions, festivals, etc. I don't think you can dispute this.
Thus I don't have irrational fears of Islam-by-SOME-Muslims [Islamophobe] but have real rational fears of Islam-by-SOME-Muslims.

Thus whenever anyone critique Islam or highlight the violent and its potential from Islam [in part], they are doing a duty as a concerned citizens of humanity. Note in contrast there are many warnings about Nazism by many concerned people but they were not heeded by the right people.
I am not saying Islam is the same as Nazism, but the violence perpetuated by SOME* Muslims acting upon SOME verses from the Quran, Hadiths and Sira that must be given serious attention.
* note it is SOME Muslims, not ALL Muslims.

Therefore anyone who has a concern for humanity and highlight the violence of Islam [in part] and committed by SOME Muslims should not be condemned as an Islamophobe as that is literally wrong. In reality those who give critiques of Islam should be encouraged and praised.

In contrast it is the Quran that extensively promote "Kuffarphobia" or "Infidelphobia" 'anti-Semitism" and 'Christianophobia' for no good and justifiable reasons at all.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There may be an upsurge of violence during holiday seasons but almost all [other than Islamic related ones] are not motivated and inspired by religious texts. These people are acting based on their own human nature.

The notable violence from SOME Muslims during Ramadan and after Friday prayers are influenced by verses from the Quran, Hadiths and Sira.

Via the principles of the Normal Curve, it is likely there may be perverted Islamaphobes but I have not come across any yet.
I believe the OP's case is not related to Islamaphobia [irrational fears of Islam] but based on real fears generated from real evidence of very noticeable violence by SOME Muslims acting upon very obvious violent laden verses from the Quran, Hadiths and Sira.

I would declare myself an Islam-fearing person based on rational solid evidence that Islam per se [in part] and when believed by SOME Muslims indeed and factually generate fears and terrors upon non-Muslims labeled as infidels and Kuffar.

Note
3:151. We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve [kuffar, infidels] because they ascribe unto Allah partners [idols and deities], for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong doers. [mine]
The fact is some Muslims who claim to be truer Muslims acted out the above verses in reality and the evidence of their terror is so glaring. So it is only naturally that I would be fearful just in case I encounter not any Muslims but such extremist Muslims.
If I were to visit the Pyramids at present, there is a good chance I might be bombed or beheaded by Islamic jihadists. It can also happen anywhere in US in a marathon, basketball game, any sport occasions, festivals, etc. I don't think you can dispute this.
Thus I don't have irrational fears of Islam-by-SOME-Muslims [Islamophobe] but have real rational fears of Islam-by-SOME-Muslims.

Thus whenever anyone critique Islam or highlight the violent and its potential from Islam [in part], they are doing a duty as a concerned citizens of humanity. Note in contrast there are many warnings about Nazism by many concerned people but they were not heeded by the right people.
I am not saying Islam is the same as Nazism, but the violence perpetuated by SOME* Muslims acting upon SOME verses from the Quran, Hadiths and Sira that must be given serious attention.
* note it is SOME Muslims, not ALL Muslims.

Therefore anyone who has a concern for humanity and highlight the violence of Islam [in part] and committed by SOME Muslims should not be condemned as an Islamophobe as that is literally wrong. In reality those who give critiques of Islam should be encouraged and praised.

In contrast it is the Quran that extensively promote "Kuffarphobia" or "Infidelphobia" 'anti-Semitism" and 'Christianophobia' for no good and justifiable reasons at all.
There's really no reason to write that much to make your point. Try to be more concise in your responses.

Jihad during the month of Ramadan is highly discouraged in both the Quran and Hadeeth as being on an "as-required" basis only. Further violence occurring during Ramadan with the *intention* of the perpetrator being to cause mayhem during Ramadan is a 20th and 21st century phenomenon. This has nothing to do with Islam, but rather the socio-political climate of Muslim countries (and their attached diaspora communities) versus non-Muslim industrialized countries.

Your quote of the Quran is a prime example of where Islamophobes and ISIS agree... Taking verses *way* out of context, with very little knowledge of the tafsir, corresponding Hadeeth, and in the case of Islamophobes no knowledge of even basic Arabic in order to support their warped view of what Islam is.
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Old 06-15-2015, 11:39 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
There's really no reason to write that much to make your point. Try to be more concise in your responses.
This is personal, you should mind your own business!

Quote:
Jihad during the month of Ramadan is highly discouraged in both the Quran and Hadeeth as being on an "as-required" basis only. Further violence occurring during Ramadan with the *intention* of the perpetrator being to cause mayhem during Ramadan is a 20th and 21st century phenomenon. This has nothing to do with Islam, but rather the socio-political climate of Muslim countries (and their attached diaspora communities) versus non-Muslim industrialized countries.
This is the interpretation of the many Muslims but the fact is a minority of Muslims are influenced and do act on the violent verses in the Quran, Hadiths, and Sira to commit violence during Ramadan. Who are YOU to say you are right and they are wrong?

Quote:
Your quote of the Quran is a prime example of where Islamophobes and ISIS agree... Taking verses *way* out of context, with very little knowledge of the tafsir, corresponding Hadeeth, and in the case of Islamophobes no knowledge of even basic Arabic in order to support their warped view of what Islam is.
Despite my explanation of what is and what is not Islamophobes, you don't seem to understand and use it proper English meanings.
It is not me who is taking verses out of context, it is SOME [not you] Muslims who act accordingly to the verses.
Actually by not following the verses serious you may not be regarded as a very good Muslim, although you have used your discretion as being a very good human being.
Those Muslims from ISIS and other fundamentalist group will claim you and the rest are not true Muslims by quoting the relevant verses from the Quran. Who is to decide who is right or wrong? It is obvious the more literal interpreters, i.e. the fundamentals are more true to the book.

Not knowing Arabic is not a good argument.
God has stated 'Islam' is universal and came in many languages via various prophets through the ages. So what is so special about Arabic?
If I am in doubt, I refer to more than 50 English translations from the experts. All humans has the same DNA so it is not too difficult to understand issues related to religions and spirituality when one has cover its extensive perspectives.

For example the average human can easily understand the major types of emotions of another from merely reading physical facial expressions.
Emotional Competency - Recognize these emotions

With sufficient knowledge there is not much difficulty in understand Islam as a religion regardless of what language it is written in.

Hadiths and tafsir may be helpful but they are subject to corruptions by various subjective views despite the review processes.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:26 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
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The problem is that ALL Muslims think that Muhammed, one of the most evil men to walk the earth, is their prophet and perfect example to follow, and that the Quran, with all it's hate and incitement to violence, is the direct word from god.

ALL Muslims think that it was OK for Muhammed to rape, slaughter, enslave, sell women, etc. Woodrow LI is an excellent example when he said (regarding Muhammed's rape of Aisha):

"There is no defending needed. The Marriage between Muhammad(saws) was approved by Allaah(swt).
I may not understand why Allaah(swt) does as he does, but it is not for the creation to question the creator."


How many other Muslims would say the same? I think we can agree that it is unlikely that Woodrow LI is slaughtering people. But whatever 'allah' approved (slavery, rape, slaughter, pedophilia, etc) will not be questioned by him. He will never judge the evil in Islam to be evil. This is true of ALL Muslims.

ALL Muslims will jump through hoops to defend what is obviously evil. I've heard every convoluted excuse possible many hundreds of times. After speaking with almost 2.500 Muslims, there is no doubt in my mind. After seeing what is happening in Europe and other parts of the world, there is no doubt in my mind. After reading the Quran and hadiths, there is no doubt in my mind. ALL Muslims submit to and defend this perverted, evil ideology. I just don't know why.

No good person chooses to follow an evil ideology. The evil in Islam is in your face evil and overwhelming.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:42 AM
 
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"Further violence occurring during Ramadan with the *intention* of the perpetrator being to cause mayhem during Ramadan is a 20th and 21st century phenomenon. "

Do you have any evidence this is true? When I make statements like this, I back them up with quite a bit of evidence. Otherwise, it's just an arbitrary assertion and worth nothing.
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:52 AM
 
39,185 posts, read 10,872,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I blame both. Islam teaches hate and pedophelia and rape and slaughtering non-Muslims and terrorism and slavery and beating and selling women, etc. And Muslims choose to follow such perverted evil.

And you are right. I do hate these evil things. I hate that Muslims do these things. I hate that Muhammed existed to demand these things of Muslims and I hate that Muslims follow such evil.

WHY DO YOU LOVE SUCH EVIL THINGS?

So what do I love? I love freedom and individual rights. I love rationality and truth and justice. I love productivity and integrity and intelligence and I love life.

WHY DO YOU HATE THE GOOD?

Tunisia suffers bloodiest day in 50 years as terror strikes border


The bloodiest attack took place July 16, shortly after the breaking of the Ramadan fast. It was not the first time that a terrorist attack killed people in this holy month, a month that jihadists are clearly fond of.

Last year, eight soldiers were killed and mutilated on July 29, the 19th day of Ramadan, barely four days after the assassination of leftist deputy Mohamed Brahmi in Tunis on Republic Day. After almost a year to the day, the terrorists chose the 18th of Ramadan to commit the bloodiest attack since the 2011 revolution, and even since 1956. This date was certainly not been chosen at random. It corresponds to the Battle of Badr, the first victorious battle by the Muslim Arabs.
Tunisia suffers bloodiest day in 50 years as terror strikes border - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

Ramadan: Islam's 'Holy Month' of Christian Oppression
In Nigeria, for example, Islamic militants are living up to the assertion that "Ramadan is a month of jihad and death for Allah," proving that killing Christians is not only reserved for Christian holidays like Christmas and Easter – when militants bombed churches killing dozens – but is especially applicable during Islam's Ramadan.

First, according to Coptic websites, on July 27, a diabetic man in Egypt was driving his car in Maadi, a suburb of southern Cairo, when he was struck with great thirst, "which he could not bear" (a side-effect of diabetes, further exacerbated by Egypt's July weather). He pulled over near a public water source and started drinking water. Soon three passers-by approached him, inquiring why he was drinking water (among the many things forbidden to Muslims during daylight in Ramadan). The diabetic man replied, "Because I am a Christian, and sick," to which they exclaimed "you're a Christian, too!" and begun beating him mercilessly. Other passers-by began to congregate to see what was happening, but no one intervened on behalf of the diabetic non-Muslim until he managed to make a dash for his parked car and fled the scene.

The second story from Egypt concerns a young Christian doctor, Maher Rizkalla Ghali, who was shot by riotous Muslims, including easily-identified Salafis, resulting in the loss of one eye and the likely loss of the other. According to Watan Voice, the perpetrators live downstairs and regularly fired bullets in the air while feasting during sahur (the time before dawn when Muslims are permitted the things they are forbidden in daylight, including food, water, and sex). One night the raucous was so unbearable that the Copt spoke to them from his window, saying that their actions were disturbing to the children and elderly.

Their response was to "insult his religion" and open fire at him, severely disfiguring him. The Muslims then tried to break through the door to attack and plunder the Christian household. Although the family filed a police report, "security forces have not taken any action towards the perpetrators." Likewise, though they tried to admit the blinded Christian man to several hospitals, they were refused admission until Kasr Hospital accepted them.

This story is almost identical to what happened to a family in Turkey around the same time. According to Hurriyet Daily News, the home of an Alevi family "was stoned and their stables burned down by an angry mob" because they "told a Ramadan drummer not to wake them for sahur, the meal before sunrise," resulting in a quarrel. After local Muslims found out about the family's temerity, "a mob of around 60 people" gathered around the house hurling stones, setting the stable on fire, and chanting Islamic slogans, including "Allahu Akbar!" "They came to lynch us," explained a family member, and "told us to leave and threatened to kill us if we did not."
Ramadan: Islam's 'Holy Month' of Christian Oppression :: The Investigative Project on Terrorism

WHERE IS THE HATE? Why am I hateful when I speak against such hate?
I was strangely interested by the title and intrigued by the OP. However the response - that there is a noted tendency for some people to cut loose at holiday time - is at least reason to not jump to a conclusion. That this tendency is to be counted particularly against Islam but dismissed where it applies to other religions - or none.

This is special pleading and is a false argument. Following it up with a list of selected atrocity stories merely makes me a bit more sympathetic towards the muslism -and believe me, I regard Islam as the religion I would put at the bottom of a list of religions i could join if I had to join one.

You don't need to tell me of all that is wring about Islam, buit slamming away at the great atrocity debate never gets us anywhere.

Buddhist persecute muslims in Myanmar, Hindus in Sri Lanka. Christians persecute a whole lot of people in the US.

But those are not Real Christians - you can't blame the religion - that is people -and politics.

Exactly. While I do think there is an element of nastiness in the Quran - trust me, there is in the Gospels too - banging away at the wrongs supposedly done in the name of Islam does make me think in terms of hate -speech.

If we are ever going to get any tolerance from Islam, we have to extend some. That doesn't mean overlooking the wrongs, but persuasion rather than red -faced yelling.
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:29 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 770,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is personal, you should mind your own business!
It is my business if you'd like a reply. Otherwise feel free to post novels that myself and many other posters will never read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
This is the interpretation of the many Muslims but the fact is a minority of Muslims are influenced and do act on the violent verses in the Quran, Hadiths, and Sira to commit violence during Ramadan. Who are YOU to say you are right and they are wrong?
When reviewing the fatawa of these groups one finds *ridiculous* interpretations and positions of Quran, Seerah, Hadeeth, and Tafsir that no one has ever taken before, in other words violating all previous precedents. Then when reviewing the "Scholars" that came up with such fatawa one finds that they are not truly scholars at all. OBL, Ayman Zawahiri, Maqdisi, etc... are all self-trained, not coming out of proper Islamic seminaries or studying under recognized scholars. Would you trust the diagnosis and treatment from a "Doctor" who read a few anatomy and biology books?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
Despite my explanation of what is and what is not Islamophobes, you don't seem to understand and use it proper English meanings.
It is not me who is taking verses out of context, it is SOME [not you] Muslims who act accordingly to the verses.
Actually by not following the verses serious you may not be regarded as a very good Muslim, although you have used your discretion as being a very good human being.
Those Muslims from ISIS and other fundamentalist group will claim you and the rest are not true Muslims by quoting the relevant verses from the Quran. Who is to decide who is right or wrong? It is obvious the more literal interpreters, i.e. the fundamentals are more true to the book.
What? I follow the my religion and take my religion *very* seriously. Your argument states that in order to be a good Muslim that one must follow the paths of ISIS or Al-Qaeda, which is patently wrong and I have 99% of Muslim scholars to support my case on this issue...read here: Letter to Baghdadi - Open Letter to BaghdadiOpen Letter to Baghdadi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
Not knowing Arabic is not a good argument.
God has stated 'Islam' is universal and came in many languages via various prophets through the ages. So what is so special about Arabic?
If I am in doubt, I refer to more than 50 English translations from the experts. All humans has the same DNA so it is not too difficult to understand issues related to religions and spirituality when one has cover its extensive perspectives.
In order to derive rulings one must understand the Quran and original sources of hadeeth, tafsir, seerah and fatawa in their original language, Arabic. There are many-many words in the Arabic language which have no direct translation to other languages. It's not even enough to know Arabic, one must understand the context of the word when it was used in a certain place and time. For instance the word "Sick" typically means ill or someone is suffering from an illness, but in contemporary urban culture that word "Sick" may be used as an adjective to describe something is good, great or awesome.

Now in order to *practice* Islam one may read in whatever language one understands. One may become a good Muslim and lead a good Muslim life without understanding Arabic. However in order to be a scholar, derive rulings and issue fatawa...they need Arabic. You're sitting here deriving rulings based off of cherry-picked verses and an understanding that only Islamophobes and ISIS have and that is not only extremely dangerous but also exhibits why one must have a much deeper understanding of why verses were revealed, when, how, what hadeeth sources go along with such verse, etc...
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:07 AM
 
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"However the response - that there is a noted tendency for some people to cut loose at holiday time - is at least reason to not jump to a conclusion. That this tendency is to be counted particularly against Islam but dismissed where it applies to other religions - or none. "

There is a noted tendency for Muslims to become even more violent during Ramadan, a month where they supposedly behave themselves. That is the conclusion based on reality. Trying to point out that other religions do the same (without any evidence) is both an arbitrary assertion and also a logical fallacy called tu quoque.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

"This is special pleading and is a false argument."
How so?

"Following it up with a list of selected atrocity stories merely makes me a bit more sympathetic towards the muslism"
Certainly true if you are sympathetic to atrocities.

"slamming away at the great atrocity debate never gets us anywhere."
No debate, just examples of Muslim atrocities during Ramadan. You can sweep Islamic terrorism under the rug, but I won't.

"Buddhist persecute muslims in Myanmar, Hindus in Sri Lanka. Christians persecute a whole lot of people in the US."
Tu quoque again. We're talking about Ramadan and Muslims. And no one has supplied news stories of Christians rioting and burning mosques on Christmas.

"While I do think there is an element of nastiness in the Quran"

Understatement of the year. Can you explain abrogation as it applies to the Quran? Which of these things does the Quran encourage: terrorism, slaughtering non-Muslims, rape, slavery, pedophilia, genocide, beating women.

"banging away at the wrongs supposedly done in the name of Islam does make me think in terms of hate -speech."
I don't quite know what to say...you claim to speak up against evil is hate. Interesting principle there. And indeed Muslims give it away by shouting "Allahu Akbar" and claiming responsibility.

"If we are ever going to get any tolerance from Islam, we have to extend some."

I'm not very tolerant of terrorism or pedophilia or slavery or mass slaughter or rape. But that's just me. The media, the politicians, the judicial system, educational system and the liberals seem to be very tolerant and even supportive of Muslims. Actually, so do most conservatives I've met. Europe has been VERY tolerant. How's that working out? Muslims just don't tolerate individual rights and freedom. Something about Shariah Law.
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
snip----

In order to derive rulings one must understand the Quran and original sources of hadeeth, tafsir, seerah and fatawa in their original language, Arabic. There are many-many words in the Arabic language which have no direct translation to other languages. It's not even enough to know Arabic, one must understand the context of the word when it was used in a certain place and time. For instance the word "Sick" typically means ill or someone is suffering from an illness, but in contemporary urban culture that word "Sick" may be used as an adjective to describe something is good, great or awesome.

---snip
..
Just want to take this moment to to clarify something. I notice some non-Muslims are under the impression Seerah (Often spelled Sira) in English is the "Sirat Rasool Allah" by Ishaq and belive we read Ishaq as scripture

While Sira (Seerah) does refer to all things pertaining to the life of Muhannad(saws) one should not consider the the "Sira Rasool Allah by Ishaq" as being infallible, complete of even the only sira.

One needs to look at all sira including the Ahadith and historical fatwa among other things.

Studying the Sira is a life time commitment and not within the ability of most people. Our best option to to follow the advice of knowledgeable scholrars for or understanding of Sira,

While the original Ishaq was probably accurate. The original was long destroyed and attempted to be reconstructed and again destroyed and later reconstructed. What exists today is a reconstructed copy of a partial copy that was reconstructed from a partial copy. changes and embellishments have been made and Ishaq's work does not exist in it's original form
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