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Old 06-16-2015, 10:01 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 770,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Just want to take this moment to to clarify something. I notice some non-Muslims are under the impression Seerah (Often spelled Sira) in English is the "Sirat Rasool Allah" by Ishaq and belive we read Ishaq as scripture

While Sira (Seerah) does refer to all things pertaining to the life of Muhannad(saws) one should not consider the the "Sira Rasool Allah by Ishaq" as being infallible, complete of even the only sira.

One needs to look at all sira including the Ahadith and historical fatwa among other things.

Studying the Sira is a life time commitment and not within the ability of most people. Our best option to to follow the advice of knowledgeable scholrars for or understanding of Sira,

While the original Ishaq was probably accurate. The original was long destroyed and attempted to be reconstructed and again destroyed and later reconstructed. What exists today is a reconstructed copy of a partial copy that was reconstructed from a partial copy. changes and embellishments have been made and Ishaq's work does not exist in it's original form
This is correct. The first source of Islamic law is the Quran, followed by the Sahih Hadeeth, then by Ijma (historical or current concensus/precedent), then Qiyas (interpretation/fatawa) & Seerah.
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:17 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
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"The original was long destroyed and attempted to be reconstructed and again destroyed and later reconstructed. "

I am reading this:
"The original book has not been found but its contents were traced through other contemporaneous authors who copied his book such as Ibn Hisham.Early Muslim historical writing was primarily concerned with the biography of Muhammad (Sirat Rasul Allah) and the first wars of Islam (Al-Maghazi). Muhammad Ibn Ishaq related the first known biography (Sira). This work no longer exists in its original form, but has been preserved in at least two recensions, one of these recensions being authored by Ibn Hisham (with many revisions), as well as by Al Bakka'i, al Tabari, Yunus b. Bukayr, al Athir, Al Qarawayoun (in Fez, Morocco) manuscript, etc.; thus Ibn Hisham's work represents one of the earliest (but not entirely reliable) authorities on the life of Muhammad. [2] "
The-Problems-with-Ibn-Ishaq

I think that probably the hadiths understate the evil that Muhammed did.

At any rate, all the hadiths taken as a whole present an overall assessment of Muhammed as a slave owner and trader who raped a little 9 year old child, had many wives and was very interested in menses and slaughtering people who did not agree with him.

This dovetails nicely with the Quran, which promotes terrorism and Islam taking over the earth by sword and fascination with menses and pedophilia and women as lower than men.
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"The original was long destroyed and attempted to be reconstructed and again destroyed and later reconstructed. "

I am reading this:
"The original book has not been found but its contents were traced through other contemporaneous authors who copied his book such as Ibn Hisham.Early Muslim historical writing was primarily concerned with the biography of Muhammad (Sirat Rasul Allah) and the first wars of Islam (Al-Maghazi). Muhammad Ibn Ishaq related the first known biography (Sira). This work no longer exists in its original form, but has been preserved in at least two recensions, one of these recensions being authored by Ibn Hisham (with many revisions), as well as by Al Bakka'i, al Tabari, Yunus b. Bukayr, al Athir, Al Qarawayoun (in Fez, Morocco) manuscript, etc.; thus Ibn Hisham's work represents one of the earliest (but not entirely reliable) authorities on the life of Muhammad. [2] "
The-Problems-with-Ibn-Ishaq

I think that probably the hadiths understate the evil that Muhammed did.

At any rate, all the hadiths taken as a whole present an overall assessment of Muhammed as a slave owner and trader who raped a little 9 year old child, had many wives and was very interested in menses and slaughtering people who did not agree with him.

This dovetails nicely with the Quran, which promotes terrorism and Islam taking over the earth by sword and fascination with menses and pedophilia and women as lower than men.
What I see as more representative of Islam are the Hadith Qudsi, While all the Sahih Ahadith do give verified eye withes accounts of about 18,000 moments in the Life of Muhammad(swt) they are a small, but important part of the historical development of Islam.

The Ahadith Qudsi give a better understanding of what Islam is about

Forty Hadith Qudsi in English and Arabic | Faith in Allah
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:44 AM
 
Location: california
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In spite of the facts, the liberals defend the musalm and islam.
In reality I think it is the liberals that islamiphobic.
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"The original was long destroyed and attempted to be reconstructed and again destroyed and later reconstructed. "

I am reading this:
"The original book has not been found but its contents were traced through other contemporaneous authors who copied his book such as Ibn Hisham.Early Muslim historical writing was primarily concerned with the biography of Muhammad (Sirat Rasul Allah) and the first wars of Islam (Al-Maghazi). Muhammad Ibn Ishaq related the first known biography (Sira). This work no longer exists in its original form, but has been preserved in at least two recensions, one of these recensions being authored by Ibn Hisham (with many revisions), as well as by Al Bakka'i, al Tabari, Yunus b. Bukayr, al Athir, Al Qarawayoun (in Fez, Morocco) manuscript, etc.; thus Ibn Hisham's work represents one of the earliest (but not entirely reliable) authorities on the life of Muhammad. [2] "
The-Problems-with-Ibn-Ishaq

I think that probably the hadiths understate the evil that Muhammed did.

At any rate, all the hadiths taken as a whole present an overall assessment of Muhammed as a slave owner and trader who raped a little 9 year old child, had many wives and was very interested in menses and slaughtering people who did not agree with him.

This dovetails nicely with the Quran, which promotes terrorism and Islam taking over the earth by sword and fascination with menses and pedophilia and women as lower than men.
Hisham only had fragmens of the original to copy from. Hisham/s copy was also destroyed ad what remains are reconstructed attempts at remaking his copy.

Some links that might help explain that the current book attributed to Ishaq is not an accurate copy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Ishaq

The-Problems-with-Ibn-Ishaq

Quote:
Who Was Ibn Ishaq?

His full name is Muhammad b Ishaq b Yasar, born in Madina about 85AH/ 702CE and died in Baghdad 151AH. Ibn Ishaq was the earliest (but one of the worse) biographers of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Ibn Ishaq was born in Madina (The city of the Prophet) approximately 85 years after Hijra, which is approximately 704 CE. He is thus considered one of the Tabi‘in and he is reported to have met Anas ibn Malik. He worked in Madina until the Abbasids replaced the Umayyads in the caliphate (750 C.E.). After that he is reported at various places in Iraq and Iran and he died in Bagdad in 768 C.E.
https://islamgreatreligion.wordpress...-by-ibn-ishaq/
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Old 06-16-2015, 12:26 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
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"In reality I think it is the liberals that islamiphobic."

That may be as perhaps they would like to be the last to be slaughtered.

However, I see liberals more as 'useful idiots'.

This article is interesting:
Articles: Islam's Useful Idiots
"Islam enjoys a large and influential ally among the non—Muslims: A new generation of 'Useful Idiots,' the sort of people Lenin identified living in liberal democracies who furthered the work of communism. This new generation of Useful Idiots also lives in liberal democracies, but serves the cause of Islamofascism—another virulent form of totalitarian ideology."
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Old 06-16-2015, 01:24 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
Reputation: 435
Woodrow LI, you are rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Much of the evil Muhammed did is documented in different hadiths. The fundamentals are documented in the Quran. The Quran and hadiths tie together very clearly...Muhammed was a very evil man and Islam is a very evil ideology. I know that Muslims are masters at obfuscation and trying to find or invent dishonest or meaningless arguments. You should have hidden the Quran and hadiths.

Anything I post that can be used to confuse the issue, is used that way. Why can't you take an objective and honest look?

The issue of translation is a good example. Arabic is certainly translatable, even classic Arabic. The Quran isn't some special Arabic that is not translatable. If it is, destroy all translations and tell the vast majority of Muslims they have no idea what Islam is and can't be Muslims. Muslims never seem to need to know Hebrew and Greek before attacking the bible. Is this book that allah (CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE) supposedly gave to mankind unable to be understood by the vast population of humans? Why didn't allah (CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE) just create the damn book in all languages and be done with it? HE CREATED THE UNIVERSE!! Come on!!

Do you get that if we accept your claim that allah is the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE and Muhammed is his chosen prophet, then the whole mess if Islam just looks evil AND silly. Sillier than Scientology! And to keep the farce going, you have to cook up all sorts of nonsense that doesn't even matter in the overall picture!

"And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves."
- ALLAH (CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE)

Whoops!!
The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298)

"And give glad tidings to those who believe and do righteous good deeds, that for them will be Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise). Every time they will be provided with a fruit therefrom, they will say: "This is what we were provided with before," and they will be given things in resemblance (i.e. in the same form but different in taste) and they shall have therein Azwajun Mutahharatun (purified mates or wives), (having no menses, stools, urine, etc.) and they will abide therein forever."
- ALLAH (CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE)

Seriously, the Quran is a mess! Repetition, contradictions, complete nonsense, incitement to murder and rape and pedophilia, fascination with menses, terrible writing...what CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE is going to be producing such a mess? When I first read the Quran I was aghast to learn it was just a mess of garbage tending towards porn and explicit in incitement to violence. It would be laughable were it not so hateful and evil.

I can get that you want to bury the horrible things Muhammed did and the evil in the Quran. But it's just too darn explicit to cover up. A is A.
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Old 06-16-2015, 01:48 PM
 
39,189 posts, read 10,872,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"However the response - that there is a noted tendency for some people to cut loose at holiday time - is at least reason to not jump to a conclusion. That this tendency is to be counted particularly against Islam but dismissed where it applies to other religions - or none. "

There is a noted tendency for Muslims to become even more violent during Ramadan, a month where they supposedly behave themselves. That is the conclusion based on reality. Trying to point out that other religions do the same (without any evidence) is both an arbitrary assertion and also a logical fallacy called tu quoque.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

"This is special pleading and is a false argument."
How so?

"Following it up with a list of selected atrocity stories merely makes me a bit more sympathetic towards the muslism"
Certainly true if you are sympathetic to atrocities.

"slamming away at the great atrocity debate never gets us anywhere."
No debate, just examples of Muslim atrocities during Ramadan. You can sweep Islamic terrorism under the rug, but I won't.

"Buddhist persecute muslims in Myanmar, Hindus in Sri Lanka. Christians persecute a whole lot of people in the US."
Tu quoque again. We're talking about Ramadan and Muslims. And no one has supplied news stories of Christians rioting and burning mosques on Christmas.

"While I do think there is an element of nastiness in the Quran"

Understatement of the year. Can you explain abrogation as it applies to the Quran? Which of these things does the Quran encourage: terrorism, slaughtering non-Muslims, rape, slavery, pedophilia, genocide, beating women.

"banging away at the wrongs supposedly done in the name of Islam does make me think in terms of hate -speech."
I don't quite know what to say...you claim to speak up against evil is hate. Interesting principle there. And indeed Muslims give it away by shouting "Allahu Akbar" and claiming responsibility.

"If we are ever going to get any tolerance from Islam, we have to extend some."

I'm not very tolerant of terrorism or pedophilia or slavery or mass slaughter or rape. But that's just me. The media, the politicians, the judicial system, educational system and the liberals seem to be very tolerant and even supportive of Muslims. Actually, so do most conservatives I've met. Europe has been VERY tolerant. How's that working out? Muslims just don't tolerate individual rights and freedom. Something about Shariah Law.
This response is merely more of the same. There are references to logical fallacies, which you don't seem to understand (Tuo quoque is not appropriate in establishing moral high ground - only as error in constructing or defending arguments), representing me as some kind of apologist for Islam, which I am certainly not, and of course the crafty comparison of one culture with another, Muslims do not behave like that here, because it is a different culture.

I am not very tolerant of the things you mention either, and aside the rather obvious 'I'm not bashing Other religions - I'm only bashing this one' nor am I tolerant of witch killings, clinic -attacks and denial of same -sex rights - all done by Christians. Ah, that is not representative and why can't I look at the positive side and all the decent peaceful ones? Exactly Cuts both ways.

I'm not sweeping anything under the carpet. But I see a difference between putting things right and just bashing. I'm saying your posts come across as bashing and it has a counter effect on me. Like the 'How's that working out?' The implied jibe that we should have listened to you, cracked down on these Muslims before they got out of line turns me off.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-16-2015 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:13 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
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"Tuo quoque is not appropriate in establishing moral high ground - only as error in constructing or defending arguments"

Right, so don't do it. Whoops, you did it again:

"nor am I tolerant of witch killings, clinic -attacks and denial of same -sex rights - all done by Christians"

You suggest tolerance as a solution. I'm proving to you that tolerance does not work. Want some more examples?

FrontPage Magazine - What Islam Isn't

'How's that working out?' doesn't imply, it asks a direct question. How is tolerance towards Muslims working out in Europe?
CAN YOU TELL ME?

Have you read the Quran and hadiths? Do you understand abrogation as it relates to the Quran? How many Muslims have you asked about Muhammed and his rape of a 9 year old child and his slavery and rape and selling of women and his demands for terrorism and slaughtering non-Muslims? Ever ask any if they can condemn Muhammed for such actions?

"Muslims do not behave like that here, because it is a different culture"

Indeed they do behave like this here. They are just better at hiding it and using different tactics. Every Muslim here will defend all the evil in the Quran and hadiths. Not one will say that Muhammed was evil to do such things. Ask them. I did.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Woodrow LI, you are rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Much of the evil Muhammed did is documented in different hadiths. The fundamentals are documented in the Quran. The Quran and hadiths tie together very clearly...Muhammed was a very evil man and Islam is a very evil ideology. I know that Muslims are masters at obfuscation and trying to find or invent dishonest or meaningless arguments. You should have hidden the Quran and hadiths.

Anything I post that can be used to confuse the issue, is used that way. Why can't you take an objective and honest look?

The issue of translation is a good example. Arabic is certainly translatable, even classic Arabic. The Quran isn't some special Arabic that is not translatable. If it is, destroy all translations and tell the vast majority of Muslims they have no idea what Islam is and can't be Muslims. Muslims never seem to need to know Hebrew and Greek before attacking the bible. Is this book that allah (CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE) supposedly gave to mankind unable to be understood by the vast population of humans? Why didn't allah (CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE) just create the damn book in all languages and be done with it? HE CREATED THE UNIVERSE!! Come on!!

Do you get that if we accept your claim that allah is the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE and Muhammed is his chosen prophet, then the whole mess if Islam just looks evil AND silly. Sillier than Scientology! And to keep the farce going, you have to cook up all sorts of nonsense that doesn't even matter in the overall picture!

"And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves."
- ALLAH (CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE)

Whoops!!
The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298)

"And give glad tidings to those who believe and do righteous good deeds, that for them will be Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise). Every time they will be provided with a fruit therefrom, they will say: "This is what we were provided with before," and they will be given things in resemblance (i.e. in the same form but different in taste) and they shall have therein Azwajun Mutahharatun (purified mates or wives), (having no menses, stools, urine, etc.) and they will abide therein forever."
- ALLAH (CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE)

Seriously, the Quran is a mess! Repetition, contradictions, complete nonsense, incitement to murder and rape and pedophilia, fascination with menses, terrible writing...what CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE is going to be producing such a mess? When I first read the Quran I was aghast to learn it was just a mess of garbage tending towards porn and explicit in incitement to violence. It would be laughable were it not so hateful and evil.

I can get that you want to bury the horrible things Muhammed did and the evil in the Quran. But it's just too darn explicit to cover up. A is A.
All I can say is that many of us who accept Islam see something much different than the image you portray.

I found Allaah(swt) and became convinced He was real before I accepted Islam. It was after I accepted Islam, my view of the Qur'an changed.

Prior to finding Allaah(swt) it had been over 20 years since I had even seen a Muslim. I did not see another Muslim again until after I accepted Islam. It was Up until that point I felt very much towards the Qur'an as you describe in your posts. I had never read a Hadith until about 5 years ago and since then have been doing my best to understnd the "Science of Hadith" It was only since I joined City Data that I head of Ishaq's "Sira Rasool Allah" There was no influence from any Muslims that led me to Islam.

During my years as an Atheist I found much the same as you are finding. However I now find the Qur'an to be the most peaceful scripture I have ever read and know there are no contradictions in the Qur'an.
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