U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: "Is the Christian belief in the Trinity polytheistic?"
Yes 9 81.82%
No 2 18.18%
Voters: 11. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-24-2015, 06:58 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,651,007 times
Reputation: 115

Advertisements

here is the answer from Allah
Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).
" But there is no Ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah).
And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them. The Holy Quran.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-24-2015, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
IMO:

The essence of Christianity is monotheism not polytheistic.

Those who believe in the independent existence of different gods or deities are polytheistic.
Example are the Greeks or Hindus who do not have the concept of Brahman.

In Christianity, there is only ONE GOD just as there is only a reducible ENGERGY.
The fundamental energy is expressed in many forms.
Another analogy is carbon [C] which manifest as forms of coal, charcoal, graphite, diamond.
Note H20 as steam, ice, clouds, & water.

In Christianity, the ONE GOD in essence is expressed in three forms, i.e. Father, Holy Spirit and Son.
I believe this is necessary to suit the various of hierarchy of spirituality within the spiritual spectrum of Christians for efficiency sake.

Those at the basic levels may be more inclined toward the ideal of Son, Holy Spirit or Father which is more effective for them instead of being forced into accept the monotheistic oneness which is difficult to grasp. Despite the diversity, their belief are nevertheless on the same track when we view it from inside their brain [neuroscience] perspective. What is happening in substance is the same while there are variations in form.

Those higher up in the hierarchy, e.g. monks and mystics may not emphasized too much on the Trinity [form] but on the oneness of God [essence] and claim to have direct experience with God [Note St. Theresa, St. Paul, and various mystics, etc.]. This is because they have the neural capacity to do so.

Therefore all Christians [Bible] are monotheist and leveraged on the ONE GOD and thus are absolutely monotheistic. However, the Bible made provisions for the Trinity to facilitate those lower in spiritual scale to focus toward that ONE GOD without a compromise in their soteriological finality.

As for Islam forcing all Muslims into the pigeon hole of only ONE GOD, this is problematic and will not be efficient for those at the lower hierarchy of spirituality. These [spiritually lost] instead will direct their attention to the external variables of the religion itself, the Kaaba, the Quran, brotherhood, Caliphate, the rituals and whatever they can grab on because they have not develop sufficiently in spiritually to align with the pure ONEness of GOD. This is why we have so much problems of evils from SOME Muslims.
When viewed from the perspective of neuroscience, it will be noted these diversions are not in alignment to the neurons in relation to the ONEness of God.

Those Muslims who are naturally endowed or have developed higher spirituality and are at the higher level of spirituality, e.g. the Sufis, Mu`tazila (Arabic: المعتزلة al-muʿtazilah) & others are naturally receptive to the ONEness of God because they have highly develop spiritual neurons in their brain.
However these Muslims who has and practice the higher levels of spirituality are condemned as heretic by the majority of Muslims. As such, the majority are shutting themselves away from the possibility of progress to the levels of higher spirituality.

IMO, the approach to ONEness [monotheism] of God by the major sects of Islam is not effective. It is no harm to make provision for the forms of the only ONE [substance] as in Christianity [ONLY God and Trinity], Vedanta [only ONE Brahman and its form] to suit those lower in the spiritual hierarchy.
Note Buddhism proper do not believe in God and idols, but they do not mind at all if lay Buddhist want to pray to idols or the Buddha because Buddhism understand the continuum [Normal Curve] of spiritual psychology within Buddhists.

Btw, Islam wrongly portrayed the Christian Trinity as God, Son and Mary. This is false. As such the credibility of the Quran is dented in this case. [God supposed to be omniscient?]

Last edited by Continuum; 06-24-2015 at 11:05 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-26-2015, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
IMO:

The essence of Christianity is monotheism not polytheistic.

Those who believe in the independent existence of different gods or deities are polytheistic.
Example are the Greeks or Hindus who do not have the concept of Brahman.

In Christianity, there is only ONE GOD just as there is only a reducible ENGERGY.
The fundamental energy is expressed in many forms.
Another analogy is carbon [C] which manifest as forms of coal, charcoal, graphite, diamond.
Note H20 as steam, ice, clouds, & water.

In Christianity, the ONE GOD in essence is expressed in three forms, i.e. Father, Holy Spirit and Son.
I believe this is necessary to suit the various of hierarchy of spirituality within the spiritual spectrum of Christians for efficiency sake.

Those at the basic levels may be more inclined toward the ideal of Son, Holy Spirit or Father which is more effective for them instead of being forced into accept the monotheistic oneness which is difficult to grasp. Despite the diversity, their belief are nevertheless on the same track when we view it from inside their brain [neuroscience] perspective. What is happening in substance is the same while there are variations in form.

Those higher up in the hierarchy, e.g. monks and mystics may not emphasized too much on the Trinity [form] but on the oneness of God [essence] and claim to have direct experience with God [Note St. Theresa, St. Paul, and various mystics, etc.]. This is because they have the neural capacity to do so.

Therefore all Christians [Bible] are monotheist and leveraged on the ONE GOD and thus are absolutely monotheistic. However, the Bible made provisions for the Trinity to facilitate those lower in spiritual scale to focus toward that ONE GOD without a compromise in their soteriological finality.

As for Islam forcing all Muslims into the pigeon hole of only ONE GOD, this is problematic and will not be efficient for those at the lower hierarchy of spirituality. These [spiritually lost] instead will direct their attention to the external variables of the religion itself, the Kaaba, the Quran, brotherhood, Caliphate, the rituals and whatever they can grab on because they have not develop sufficiently in spiritually to align with the pure ONEness of GOD. This is why we have so much problems of evils from SOME Muslims.
When viewed from the perspective of neuroscience, it will be noted these diversions are not in alignment to the neurons in relation to the ONEness of God.

Those Muslims who are naturally endowed or have developed higher spirituality and are at the higher level of spirituality, e.g. the Sufis, Mu`tazila (Arabic: المعتزلة al-muʿtazilah) & others are naturally receptive to the ONEness of God because they have highly develop spiritual neurons in their brain.
However these Muslims who has and practice the higher levels of spirituality are condemned as heretic by the majority of Muslims. As such, the majority are shutting themselves away from the possibility of progress to the levels of higher spirituality.

IMO, the approach to ONEness [monotheism] of God by the major sects of Islam is not effective. It is no harm to make provision for the forms of the only ONE [substance] as in Christianity [ONLY God and Trinity], Vedanta [only ONE Brahman and its form] to suit those lower in the spiritual hierarchy.
Note Buddhism proper do not believe in God and idols, but they do not mind at all if lay Buddhist want to pray to idols or the Buddha because Buddhism understand the continuum [Normal Curve] of spiritual psychology within Buddhists.

Btw, Islam wrongly portrayed the Christian Trinity as God, Son and Mary. This is false. As such the credibility of the Quran is dented in this case. [God supposed to be omniscient?]
Are you familiar with the Collyridians that had occupied Arabia? They believed Mary, the Mother of Jesus(a.s), was a God(swt)


Quote:
Most of the early heresies were Trinitarian and Christological in
nature, but Collyridianism stood alone as a heresy that sought to
deify the Blessed Virgin Mary. Little is known about the movement's
theology. Not even the names of the group's leaders are mentioned by
writers of the time. This sect's excessive Marian devotion developed
into the idolatry of Mary worship. This aberration grew out of the
Church's rightful veneration of Mary as ever-virgin, Mother of God,
and powerful heavenly intercessor, but crossed the line of orthodoxy
when certain Christians began to worship Mary as divine. Details
about the Collyridians are scanty, but one of the few specifics we
know of them is that at their liturgical service bread was offered as
a sacrifice to Mary.

Principal errors

The heresy of the Collyridians was very simple: They worshiped Mary.
This was in direct conflict with the Catholic Church's condemnation
of idolatry, which had been condemned by God himself: "You shall have
no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven
image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that
is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you
shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am
a jealous God" (Ex. 20:3-5; cf. Deut. 5:7 6:14; 1 Cor. 4:8-6,
10:19-20; Eph. 5:5). This proscription applies not just to statue
worship, but to the worship of anything besides God.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/COLLYRID.TXT


The ayyat oft quoted by anti-Islamic sites says:

5:116 (Asad) AND LO! God said: [139] O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, `Worship me and my mother as deities beside God'?" [Jesus] answered: "Limitless art Thou in Thy glory! It would not have been possible for me to say what I had no right to [say]! Had I said this, Thou wouldst indeed have known it! Thou knowest all that is within myself, whereas I know not what is in Thy Self. Verily, it is Thou alone who fully knowest all the things that are beyond the reach of a created being's perception.

5:116 (Y. Ali) And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

5:116 (Picktall) And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou art the Knower of Things Hidden.

5:116 (French) (Rappelle-leur) le moment où Allah dira: "O Jésus, fils de Marie, est-ce toi qui as dit aux gens: "Prenez-moi, ainsi que ma mère, pour deux divinités en dehors d'Allah?" Il dira: "Gloire et pureté à Toi! Il ne m'appartient pas de déclarer ce que je n'ai pas le droit de dire! Si je l'avais dit, Tu l'aurais su, certes. Tu sais ce qu'il y a en moi, et je ne sais pas ce qu'il y a en Toi. Tu es, en vérité, le grand connaisseur de tout ce qui est inconnu.

Which is logical because some Arabs did worship Mary as a god.

No where does it say it was in reference to the Christian Trinity.

The word Trinity only appears in the Qur'an twice

4:171 (Y. Ali) O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.



5:73 (Y. Ali) They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-19-2015, 06:43 AM
 
Location: quiet place
271 posts, read 214,272 times
Reputation: 99
Imagine a car that is operated by three driver or four, if we think about the role of assisstance. Is this applicable when we talk abou Almighty God.


" If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides Allah, there would have been confusion in both! but glory to Allah, the Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!"

Holy Quran , chapter 21, verse 22

Last edited by resigned; 07-19-2015 at 06:55 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-20-2015, 12:30 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
The core elements in the NT is monotheism, i.e.

29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30"I and the Father are one." 31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.…

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

From the perspective of the Philosophy of Religion [which I am very familiar] the central core element of NT Christianity is monotheistic. Note the above verses that support this core principle.

Note St. Anselm's ontological God, i.e.
God is a being than which none greater can be imagined (that is, the greatest possible being that can be imagined).
This is the most refine representation of a monotheistic God.

There is no way NT-Christianity is polytheistic.
The Holy Spirit, Jesus are merely different pure forms and manifestations of God, just like an iceberg is a more concentrated form of H20 in the same big ocean.

It is only the less spiritual matured [including whoever wrote the Quran] who view NT-Christianity as polytheistic because they do not have the capacity how the so-called monotheistic God is represented in the NT.

Not many Christians has the mental capacity to understand the sophisticated NT verses above that represent monotheism so they tend to reify Jesus which is easier to grasp.

Based on the Bell Curve, it is likely that only a small percentile will understand what NT monotheism is, the majority will merely have sprinkling of ideas of monotheism and prefer to cling to something more visible which is more effective for them spiritually.

Hinduism at its ultimate level is monotheistic but Hinduism recognize that believers come in different degrees of spirituality from Kindergarten to PhD. One cannot force PhD monotheism on those who are in Kindergarten and grade school levels who prefer to worship the monotheistic god in more visible formats. That is why Hinduism is flexible in adapting various forms of monotheism in different forms of gods and idol to provide the transition for various believers to progress.

Buddhism whilst is non-theistic also recognize the different levels of their believers and thus compromise and is flexible to even allow their believers to adopt the Buddha as a 'god,' pray to idols, statues. It is a case of something better than nothing to suit the spiritual quotients of the different levels of believers and hoping they will progress further from their current state.

Islam's form of monotheism is too rigid and the majority of Muslims who at the bottom rungs of the spiritual quotient are very lost with a real understanding of monotheism. So many would tend towards the religion itself, the prophets, the clergy, and other visible forms. In this case, Islam is not very efficient as a religion, that is why it shift its focus to a rigid politics and social ideology.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-20-2015, 09:15 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
here is the answer from Allah
Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).
" But there is no Ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah).
And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them. The Holy Quran.
This is really nasty! Here is this superbeing that CREATED THE UNIVERSE (and I cannot even begin to comprehend what power that takes) and this superbeing sets up a scenario where he inflicts on people HE CREATED who do not believe what he wants "a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them."

This is astounding! Why didn't he make us all Muslims if that's what he wants? Why set up a scenario where he gets to inflict horrible torture on being that he created? Think about it....If you had this kind of power, would you enjoy inflicting endless torture on people you created? That would be evil.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-20-2015, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
This is really nasty! Here is this superbeing that CREATED THE UNIVERSE (and I cannot even begin to comprehend what power that takes) and this superbeing sets up a scenario where he inflicts on people HE CREATED who do not believe what he wants "a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them."

This is astounding! Why didn't he make us all Muslims if that's what he wants? Why set up a scenario where he gets to inflict horrible torture on being that he created? Think about it....If you had this kind of power, would you enjoy inflicting endless torture on people you created? That would be evil.
We all are born Muslim and practice Islam to the Best of our abilities based upon our knowledge. Until we become aware of choices

One does not leave Islam until they make a conscious free will choice to not perform Islam. Even though they do not know they are Muslim during the years of innocence we are all born into.

We personally choose Heaven or Hell and decide that choice-after we have full knowledge of the implications and the free will to choose.

But we have gone far off topic. The OP Katspur is a Christian who asked if Muslims consider the Trinity polytheistic.

I have no idea why we are now discussing Allaah(swt)
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-21-2015, 05:00 PM
 
762 posts, read 986,995 times
Reputation: 221
No, the Trinitarian view of God is NOT polytheistic. There is only one God. This one Supreme Being or God has a Trinitarian nature. The terms: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, identify three persons who share in the Divine Being. These persons are not independent of each other. This means that they cannot exist as separate beings because they all share in the one Divine nature of the one Divine Being. They are “one in being”. Monotheism refers to one Divine Being. Polytheism refers to multiple Divine Beings. For the Trinity to be Polytheistic, the Trinity would have to refer to three independent Divine natures and Divine Beings. This is not the case. There is only one Divine nature of one Divine Being that is shared by three Divine persons. God is a relationship of Love, the eternal exchange of the Holy Spirit.

The Trinity is a logical view of monotheism. I believe it's the concept that best explains the nature of God, which is Love. God is the ultimate reality of love and Love exists only in a relationship. The highest relationship of Love is between persons. If God is love, then God must be a relationship of persons who share in Love. The Trinity is the relationship of Love that is God. The name of each person of the Trinity manifests this reality. The Father, loves His Son, the Son loves the Father, their mysterious relationship of Love is the eternal exchange of the Holy Spirit. This love, which is manifested in the Trinity, is the driving force of God’s will to share His love. His will to share His love, is realized in His act of creation and ultimately the creation of man, who is a free agent that can return love to the Creator. Man also holds the promise of receiving the same Holy Spirit that is shared with the Father and the Son. Man has the hope of Divine Life. This hope of Divine life comes from the gift of the Holy Spirit which brings us into the Trinitarian relationship of Love, as adopted Sons/daughters we are able to join the eternal exchange of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son. I do not see how a being of absolute oneness can be Love, or indeed have any need or wish to commune with its creation on this level. I believe the Bible best demonstrates God as being a plurality not unitary. This does not in anyway infer that God is anything other than ONE. It's mans misunderstandings that see the trinity as three separate individual gods, which it has never been.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-21-2015, 05:08 PM
 
762 posts, read 986,995 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Are you familiar with the Collyridians that had occupied Arabia? They believed Mary, the Mother of Jesus(a.s), was a God(swt)
Woodrow, the Collyridians were an early christian heretical sect. Their beliefs were never part of mainstream Christianity. The fact this is found in the Quran kind of demonstrates the message of the Quran was very much for a certain people in a particular part of the world. Not the whole of mankind as muslims always say.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-21-2015, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Woodrow, the Collyridians were an early christian heretical sect. Their beliefs were never part of mainstream Christianity. The fact this is found in the Quran kind of demonstrates the message of the Quran was very much for a certain people in a particular part of the world. Not the whole of mankind as muslims always say.
Who was being addressed when that surah was revealed? No where is it said or implied that all Christians believed the Trinity was Mary, Jesus and Father.

Trinity is mentioned in the Qur'an Twice:

4:171 (Y. Ali) O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

5:73 (Y. Ali) They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them

The ayyat that some non-Muslims believe teached Mary is part of the Trinity is 5:116

In context it reads



5:112 (Y. Ali) Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah, if ye have faith."

5:113 (Y. Ali) They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle."

5:114 (Y. Ali) Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)."

5:115 (Y. Ali) Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."

5:116 (Y. Ali) And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

5:117 (Y. Ali) "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

5:118 (Y. Ali) "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."

Notice this is not a lesson about Christian beliefs. Although it does affirm Mary is not God(swt)
This Surah was revealed at Mecca and directed to the Christians and Pagans of Mecca
Ayyats 109-119 were a specific warning to the Christians of Mecca, Keep in mind Muhammad(saws) grew up in Mecca and was familiar with the beliefs of the Meccan Christians. For some reason it was felt the Meccan Christians had to be told not to worship Mary.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top