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Old 06-19-2015, 05:12 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
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Why I Call Myself an 'Atheist Muslim?'
Why I Call Myself an 'Atheist Muslim'*|*Ali A. Rizvi

Quote:
This kind of reconciliation and compartmentalization is made possible by a selective reading and following of religion, and is also increasingly seen among groups such as believing gay Muslims.
It has long been a phenomenon with other religious groups. A majority of the world's Catholics are cafeteria Catholics (most of them ignoring their Church's positions on birth control and abortion while retaining their Catholic identities), and many Jewish atheists expressly reject Judaism while retaining its cultural elements.
So who decides how far the cherry-picking can go? If everyone cherry-picks, is it possible to do it all the way to non-belief status?
So my first point is simply this: If the rest of you can cherry-pick, why can't I?
Another point is, there is no central authority in Islam to decide the final word.

Anyone buying this?
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Old 06-19-2015, 07:35 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,999 times
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Not buying it. It's a contradiction in terms. They are throwing out the definition and destroying the concept.

Definition: the act of defining, or of making something definite, distinct, or clear

Concept: an idea of something formed by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars; a construct.

Definitions are derived from the process of concept-formation.

Concepts and definitions have to identify the essential characteristics . Without the essential characteristics the unit being defined would not be the kind of existent it is. The concept (or definition) of 'elephant' can't subsume the characteristics of 'mouse'.

Muslim: an adherent of Islam.

Islam: the religious faith of Muslims, based on the words and religious system founded by the prophet Muhammad and taught by the Koran, the basic principle of which is absolute submission to a unique and personal god, Allah.

Atheist: a person who has no belief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Jew: one of a scattered group of people that traces its descent from the Biblical Hebrews or from postexilic adherents of Judaism; Israelite. (Atheistic Jew works)

Concepts and definitions are not subjective. That doesn't mean people won't try.

The article brings up two points worth addressing.

1. So who decides how far the cherry-picking can go?

Obviously throwing out the essentials is not cherry picking. Belief in allah is an essential if one claims to be a Muslim. So what isn't an essential in Islam? Supposedly the Quran is the final word of allah so what do Muslims think can be discarded from the Quran?

2. The writer says: "One of the goals of the piece was to emphasize the difference between the criticism of Islam and anti-Muslim bigotry: the first targets an ideology, and the second targets human beings."

This goes back to my question: How can good people choose to follow an evil, hateful, perverted ideology? Was Naziism evil but Nazis were good?

(That said, I'd love to see a mess of cognitive dissonance where most Muslims become atheists.)
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
This goes back to my question: How can good people choose to follow an evil, hateful, perverted ideology? Was Naziism evil but Nazis were good?

(That said, I'd love to see a mess of cognitive dissonance where most Muslims become atheists.)
You raised a good point.

Based on well researched justifications, Islam is PARTLY evil and malignant. Whilst only in part it is nevertheless very critical and a threat to the well being of humanity in the future.
As such Islam [and other negative religiosity] need to be weaned off in the future, thence 'Muslim' [not Islam] Atheism may be a good transitional support toward the objective.
Muslim Atheism is an oxymoron but sometimes such absurd literal terms are necessary to turn the tide.

Btw, Nazism was evil, hardcore German-Nazis were evil but most Germans-in-general [compelled by circumstances to be Nazis] were good.
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:43 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,999 times
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"Btw, Nazism was evil, hardcore German-Nazis were evil but most Germans-in-general [compelled by circumstances to be Nazis] were good."

I equate people who choose to follow Hitler with people who choose to follow of Muhammed. Arabs and Germans may or may not make that choice. Islam (an ideology) = Naziism (an ideology).

If people were under threat of force and hated Hitler secretly, they were not Nazis. Same with Islam.

You can't force a belief in an ideology.

That's one of the many massive flaws in Islam....the belief that a sword, or bomb, or gun, or terror can force a mind. A gun is not an argument. The idea that through threat of death you can force your belief on others....it just doesn't work that way.

If I put a gun to your head and demanded that you believe in Xenu, the dictator of the "Galactic Confederacy", could you suddenly actually believe in him? Of course not!
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Btw, Nazism was evil, hardcore German-Nazis were evil but most Germans-in-general [compelled by circumstances to be Nazis] were good."

I equate people who choose to follow Hitler with people who choose to follow of Muhammed. Arabs and Germans may or may not make that choice. Islam (an ideology) = Naziism (an ideology).

If people were under threat of force and hated Hitler secretly, they were not Nazis. Same with Islam.

You can't force a belief in an ideology.

That's one of the many massive flaws in Islam....the belief that a sword, or bomb, or gun, or terror can force a mind. A gun is not an argument. The idea that through threat of death you can force your belief on others....it just doesn't work that way.

If I put a gun to your head and demanded that you believe in Xenu, the dictator of the "Galactic Confederacy", could you suddenly actually believe in him? Of course not!
Theism is very contrastingly a very different kettle of fish from any other beliefs, i.e. social, political, superstitions, etc.
Theism for the majority is inherent, unavoidable and almost like the need to "breathe".

Therefore the theistic prone will grab on to anything [even illusions and mirages] and do anything necessary [some even kill, maim and commit other evils] to ensure they can 'breathe.' That is why Judgment Day, resurrection, eternal life and heaven are the most critical elements in theistic Abrahamic religions.

The Abrahamic religions, imo are the most effective to enable the theistic prone to cling on to any air pockets to 'breathe' and they will defend to their last breath to ensure the continue to 'breathe'.
What is unfortunate is Islam [in part] contain evil laden elements [can be no-holds-barred] that catalyze SOME Muslims to commit terrible evils on non-Muslims to ensure they continue to "breathe" [promised of eternal life and rewards in paradise].

Comparing Muslims with Nazism [or other ideology] is a good analogy re choice of ideology but we need to give special considerations to the majority of Muslims even when they seemingly are 'consciously' choosing Islam but in ultimately they are doing it within subliminal drives for a need to 'breathe'. To them in the very narrow perspective, the choice is believe or be tormented in eternal hell.

The two critical issues I see with Islam are;
1. A small minority [say 10%] of Muslims are highly evil prone -the majority are regarded as generally good human beings like any other average human being.

2. A large portion of the Quran [55% in term of verses], the core of Islam and its related holy texts contain negative elements that trigger the minority to commit and who also influence the majority to evil.
As Steven Weinberg stated [edited]
“Religion is an insult to human dignity.
With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad [evil] things, but for good people [& evil people] to do bad [evil] things, it takes religion [specifically Islam].”


Therefore if we critique, highlight and deal with the evil things in religion [the ideology] we can modulate and mitigate religious related violence. Better still, if we can wean off religiosity, there will be no more religious-based violence and evil. That will leave humanity to deal with one less evil and ue the available resources to focus on natural secular evils.
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Pacific Northwest
166 posts, read 363,380 times
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Have either of you read the books by Ayaan Hirsi Ali? She is so right about Islam needing a reformation. I'd go as far as saying it, like the other religions need to be gone, they don't do anything good. I like what Steven Weinburg said. You'd have the same number of people doing bad things as well as those who do good.

I'm reading the Qu'ran, and boy talk about contradictions. It's a great religion for men, keeps them in power & women submissive. I feel sorry for the women. It must be scary to be a Muslim Atheist, or Christian etc, you can leave any other religion, no problem, but only Islam will kill you for leaving.
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