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Old 06-30-2015, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Note 39:60
And [so,] on the Day of Resurrection thou wilt see all who invented lies about God [with] their faces darkened [by grief and ignominy]. Is not hell the [proper] abode for all who are given to false pride? -Assad

And on the Day of Resurrection thou (Muhammad) seest those who lied concerning Allah with their faces blackened. Is not the home of the scorners in hell? -Pickthall

And on the day of resurrection you shall see those who lied against Allah; their faces shall be blackened. Is there not in hell an abode for the proud? -Shakir
I agree the above is not about racial pigmentation.
However the denotation of human faces of 'white' with going heaven and 'black' with going to hell is not very pleasant in the modern circumstances.
If Allah is omniscience, he should not have make such an eternal sensitive statement.
Why the need to use 'white faces' or 'black faces' relating to human beings when other non-sensitive description can be used?

Ultimately the Quran is made by humans who have pseudo superiority complex are condescending to black slave during the days of the Islamic empire.
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Old 07-01-2015, 02:15 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note 39:60
And [so,] on the Day of Resurrection thou wilt see all who invented lies about God [with] their faces darkened [by grief and ignominy]. Is not hell the [proper] abode for all who are given to false pride? -Assad

And on the Day of Resurrection thou (Muhammad) seest those who lied concerning Allah with their faces blackened. Is not the home of the scorners in hell? -Pickthall

And on the day of resurrection you shall see those who lied against Allah; their faces shall be blackened. Is there not in hell an abode for the proud? -Shakir
I agree the above is not about racial pigmentation.
However the denotation of human faces of 'white' with going heaven and 'black' with going to hell is not very pleasant in the modern circumstances.
If Allah is omniscience, he should not have make such an eternal sensitive statement.
Why the need to use 'white faces' or 'black faces' relating to human beings when other non-sensitive description can be used?

Ultimately the Quran is made by humans who have pseudo superiority complex are condescending to black slave during the days of the Islamic empire.
Except The Arabic words for Black and White are not used. The Arabic words for Black and white are
أَسْوَد (= Aswad) Black
أَبْيَض (= Abaidh) White

These do not appear in 3: 106

Which in Arabic reads

يَوْمَ تَبْيَضُّ وُجُوهٌ وَتَسْوَدُّ وُجُوهٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ اسْوَدَّتْ وُجُوهُهُمْ أَكْفَرْتُم بَعْدَ إِيمَانِكُمْ فَذُوقُواْ الْعَذَابَ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَكْفُرُونَ (3:106)

Yawma tabyaddu wujoohun wataswaddu wujoohun faamma allatheena iswaddat wujoohuhum akafartum baAAda eemanikum fathooqoo alAAathaba bima kuntum takfuroona



although words derived from the same roots as Black wataswaddu which denote darkness and white baAAda which designates brightness or lightness.

There is no implication of color what is implied is darkness, sorrow bleakness facial expression compared with bright, glowing joyful facial expression.

In Eanglish there is no equivelent of the phases
wujoohun wataswaddu wujoohun faamma allatheena iswaddat wujoohuhum akafartum baAAda eemanikum fathooqooWhich carry the conontation of brightened with joyand saddened with sorrow.

The French comes closest to the Arabic meaning. Asad's English comes closer that other English Translators.


3:106 (Asad) on the Day [of Judgment] when some faces will shine [with happiness] and some faces will be dark [with grief]. And as for those with faces darkened, [they shall be told:] "Did you deny the truth after having attained to faith? Taste, then, this suffering for having denied the truth!"

I suspect that Many Translators including Yusuf Ali followed Pickthall down the Primrose path
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Old 07-01-2015, 02:29 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note 39:60
And [so,] on the Day of Resurrection thou wilt see all who invented lies about God [with] their faces darkened [by grief and ignominy]. Is not hell the [proper] abode for all who are given to false pride? -Assad

And on the Day of Resurrection thou (Muhammad) seest those who lied concerning Allah with their faces blackened. Is not the home of the scorners in hell? -Pickthall

And on the day of resurrection you shall see those who lied against Allah; their faces shall be blackened. Is there not in hell an abode for the proud? -Shakir
I agree the above is not about racial pigmentation.
However the denotation of human faces of 'white' with going heaven and 'black' with going to hell is not very pleasant in the modern circumstances.
If Allah is omniscience, he should not have make such an eternal sensitive statement.
Why the need to use 'white faces' or 'black faces' relating to human beings when other non-sensitive description can be used?

Ultimately the Quran is made by humans who have pseudo superiority complex are condescending to black slave during the days of the Islamic empire.
Teach me not to reply when half asleep. I was still fixed on 3:106 and just realized you are speaking of 39: 60

But the same applies the color black aswad is not ued in the Arabic



وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ تَرَى الَّذِينَ كَذَبُواْ عَلَى اللَّهِ وُجُوهُهُم مُّسْوَدَّةٌ أَلَيْسَ فِي جَهَنَّمَ مَثْوًى لِّلْمُتَكَبِّرِينَ (39:60)

Wayawma alqiyamati tara allatheena kathaboo AAala Allahi wujoohuhum muswaddatun alaysa fee jahannama mathwan lilmutakabbireena

39:60 (Asad) And [so,] on the Day of Resurrection thou wilt see all who invented lies about God [with] their faces darkened [by grief and ignominy]. Is not hell the [proper] abode for all who are given to false pride?

The concept of darkness is implied with muswaddatun same root word as aswad but not designatin a color, it has the conontation of darkness or grief
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Old 07-01-2015, 04:08 AM
 
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From Sahih Muslim 3901
There came a slave and pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) on migration; he (the Holy Prophet) did not know that he was a slave. Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Sell him to me. And he bought him for two black slaves, and he did not afterwards take allegiance from anyone until he had asked him whether he was a slave (or a free man).

Also:
Sahih Bukhari 9:89:256
Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle said, "You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian (black) slave whose head looks like a raisin."

Sahih Bukhari 1:11:662
Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "Listen and obey (your chief) even if an Ethiopian whose head is like a raisin were made your chief."

Ishaq:450
It is your folly to fight the Apostle, for Allah’s army is bound to disgrace you. We brought them to the pit. Hell was their meeting place. We collected them there, black slaves, men of no descent.

Mishkat, Vol. 3, p. 117
"Abu Darda reported that the Holy Prophet said: Allah created Adam when he created him (sic). Then He stroke (sic) his right shoulder and took out a white race as if they were seeds, and He stroke (sic) his left shoulder and took out a black race as if they were coals. Then He said to those who were in his right side: Towards paradise and I don't care. He said to those who were on his left shoulder: Towards Hell and I don't care. - Ahmad"

"Therefore, the Negro nation are, as a rule, submissive to slavery, because [Negroes] have little [that is essentially] human and have attributes that are quite similar to those of dumb animals, as we have stated."

"beyond [known peoples of black West Africa] to the south there is no civilization in the proper sense. There are only humans who are closer to dumb animals than to rational beings. They live in thickets and caves, and eat herbs and unprepared grain. They frequently eat each other. They cannot be considered human beings."

Ibn Khaldun, Muqaddimah, 14th century, Islamic jurist, Islamic lawyer, Islamic scholar, Islamic theologian, and hafiz

"[Blacks are] people who are by their very nature slaves."

Ibn Sina or Avicenna (980-1037), Hafiz, Islamic psychologist, Islamic scholar, and Islamic theologian

"If (all types of men) are taken, from the first, and one placed after another, like the Negro from Zanzibar, in the Southern-most countries, the Negro does not differ from an animal in anything except the fact that his hands have been lifted from the earth -in no other peculiarity or property - except for what God wished. Many have seen that the ape is more capable of being trained than the Negro, and more intelligent."

Nasīr al-Dīn al-Tūsī (1201-1274), was a Shia Muslim Scholar and Grand Ayatollah

"Like the crow among mankind are the Zanj [African Blacks] for they are the worst of men and the most vicious of creatures in character and temperament."

Al Jahiz (781–869), famous Muslim scholar
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Old 07-01-2015, 04:47 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
From Sahih Muslim 3901
There came a slave and pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) on migration; he (the Holy Prophet) did not know that he was a slave. Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Sell him to me. And he bought him for two black slaves, and he did not afterwards take allegiance from anyone until he had asked him whether he was a slave (or a free man).

Also:
Sahih Bukhari 9:89:256
Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle said, "You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian (black) slave whose head looks like a raisin."

Sahih Bukhari 1:11:662
Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "Listen and obey (your chief) even if an Ethiopian whose head is like a raisin were made your chief."

Ishaq:450
It is your folly to fight the Apostle, for Allah’s army is bound to disgrace you. We brought them to the pit. Hell was their meeting place. We collected them there, black slaves, men of no descent.

Mishkat, Vol. 3, p. 117
"Abu Darda reported that the Holy Prophet said: Allah created Adam when he created him (sic). Then He stroke (sic) his right shoulder and took out a white race as if they were seeds, and He stroke (sic) his left shoulder and took out a black race as if they were coals. Then He said to those who were in his right side: Towards paradise and I don't care. He said to those who were on his left shoulder: Towards Hell and I don't care. - Ahmad"

"Therefore, the Negro nation are, as a rule, submissive to slavery, because [Negroes] have little [that is essentially] human and have attributes that are quite similar to those of dumb animals, as we have stated."

"beyond [known peoples of black West Africa] to the south there is no civilization in the proper sense. There are only humans who are closer to dumb animals than to rational beings. They live in thickets and caves, and eat herbs and unprepared grain. They frequently eat each other. They cannot be considered human beings."

Ibn Khaldun, Muqaddimah, 14th century, Islamic jurist, Islamic lawyer, Islamic scholar, Islamic theologian, and hafiz

"[Blacks are] people who are by their very nature slaves."

Ibn Sina or Avicenna (980-1037), Hafiz, Islamic psychologist, Islamic scholar, and Islamic theologian

"If (all types of men) are taken, from the first, and one placed after another, like the Negro from Zanzibar, in the Southern-most countries, the Negro does not differ from an animal in anything except the fact that his hands have been lifted from the earth -in no other peculiarity or property - except for what God wished. Many have seen that the ape is more capable of being trained than the Negro, and more intelligent."

Nasīr al-Dīn al-Tūsī (1201-1274), was a Shia Muslim Scholar and Grand Ayatollah

"Like the crow among mankind are the Zanj [African Blacks] for they are the worst of men and the most vicious of creatures in character and temperament."

Al Jahiz (781–869), famous Muslim scholar
Show me where any ot those are backed up by the Qur'an.

There is a chain of authority in regards to Islamic Rulings. The final and primary ruling is the Qur'an. If it is not supported anywhere in the Qur'an it is not a ruling.

Can you provide any verification even one of those statements has any suport in the Qur'an?
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Old 07-01-2015, 07:22 AM
 
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"There is a chain of authority in regards to Islamic Rulings."

I am not talking about rulings, I am showing what is in the Islamic hadiths and what Muslim scholars have said regarding racism.

The hadiths are "the collections of the reports purporting to quote what the Islamic prophet Muhammad said verbatim on any matter". The Quran is supposedly the direct word from Allah. They are two different things. Some things in the hadiths relate back to the Quran and many don't.

In my opinion, the hadiths are much more reliable than the Quran.
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Old 07-01-2015, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"There is a chain of authority in regards to Islamic Rulings."

I am not talking about rulings, I am showing what is in the Islamic hadiths and what Muslim scholars have said regarding racism.

The hadiths are "the collections of the reports purporting to quote what the Islamic prophet Muhammad said verbatim on any matter". The Quran is supposedly the direct word from Allah. They are two different things. Some things in the hadiths relate back to the Quran and many don't.

In my opinion, the hadiths are much more reliable than the Quran.
You only quoted 2 Ahadith (ahadith = plural form of hadith)

That is your opinion and we all have the right and resposibility of our Opinions . I disagree with your opinion and do not see any of those as supporting Racism.

Since there are so many things you quoted at the moment I do not have to discuss them all. I will address the first

Sahih Bukhari 9:89:256
Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle said, "You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian (black) slave whose head looks like a raisin."

At least you are using Sahih Hadith. Those are the only ones that have fully verified chain back to a witness. We are reaonably certain those are the exact words the witness wrote and to the best of his memory what he heard Muhammad(saws) say


We do know know the Sahih Ahadith also have resonably high levels of rsliability, in other words if those are not the exact words Muhammad (exact) said they are close.

The issue will be over the translation. We do know the word black does not appear in the Arabic. We do know the Ethiopeans were Jews (They believe them self to be one of the "lost tribes of Israel" We do know Muhammad(saws) had love and respect for the Ethioians as they gave Muhammad(saws) and his followers refuge.

Now to look at exactly what the Hadith saws and not just a truncated quote from it. You are using the Mohsin Khan Translation

Quote:
009.089.256 - Judgments (Ahkaam) - - - -

Narrated Anas bin Malik

Allah's Apostle said, "You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian (black) slave whose head looks like a raisin."
Black is in () denoting that was added by Khan.

The difficulty with Ahadith is often all we have is a single sentence the original witness was impressed by. We do not always know what it refers too

Here we do know, from other ahadith by the same witness (Anas bin Malik) Muhammad was addressing Non-Muslim Arabs that were very racist. They were being told Racism was wrong and that they were to obey rulers equally and treat all races equally.

Malik Narrated 397 Ahadith of what he witnessed at this event. This is where an understanding of How Bhukari classified Ahadith is needed. He classified them into 97 different categories. Many of the Ahadith cover more then one category and thus they appear in each applicable category. Reulting in considerable duplication.
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Old 07-01-2015, 09:59 AM
 
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"They were being told Racism was wrong and that they were to obey rulers equally and treat all races equally."

However we see that Muhammed traded TWO black slaves for one white slave. Not equal. And comparing the head of a black man to a raisin isn't very nice. If Muhammed was saying to "treat all races equally", saying such a thing was certainly not the way to do that. Instead, Muhammed should have said : ""You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian slave, and by the way, slavery is wrong and all races should be treated equally. I am now going to free all my slaves, no matter what their race. You should do this also. All people are equal and none of us, especially me, should be owning and trading and selling slaves." But Muhammed did not say that.

To speak of raisin headed black people and to own and sell and trade slaves is not promoting equality.

The consequences are horrifying.

"Thomas Sowell [Thomas Sowell, Race and Culture, BasicBooks, 1994, p. 188] estimates that 11 million slaves were shipped across the Atlantic and 14 million were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East. For every slave captured many others died. Estimates of this collateral damage vary. The renowned missionary David Livingstone estimated that for every slave who reached a plantation, five others were killed in the initial raid or died of illness and privation on the forced march.[Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, p. 62, 1888] Those who were left behind were the very young, the weak, the sick and the old. These soon died since the main providers had been killed or enslaved. So, for 25 million slaves delivered to the market, we have an estimated death of about 120 million people. Islam ran the wholesale slave trade in Africa."

http://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/
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Old 07-01-2015, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"They were being told Racism was wrong and that they were to obey rulers equally and treat all races equally."

However we see that Muhammed traded TWO black slaves for one white slave. Not equal. And comparing the head of a black man to a raisin isn't very nice. If Muhammed was saying to "treat all races equally", saying such a thing was certainly not the way to do that. Instead, Muhammed should have said : ""You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian slave, and by the way, slavery is wrong and all races should be treated equally. I am now going to free all my slaves, no matter what their race. You should do this also. All people are equal and none of us, especially me, should be owning and trading and selling slaves." But Muhammed did not say that.

To speak of raisin headed black people and to own and sell and trade slaves is not promoting equality.

The consequences are horrifying.

"Thomas Sowell [Thomas Sowell, Race and Culture, BasicBooks, 1994, p. 188] estimates that 11 million slaves were shipped across the Atlantic and 14 million were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East. For every slave captured many others died. Estimates of this collateral damage vary. The renowned missionary David Livingstone estimated that for every slave who reached a plantation, five others were killed in the initial raid or died of illness and privation on the forced march.[Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, p. 62, 1888] Those who were left behind were the very young, the weak, the sick and the old. These soon died since the main providers had been killed or enslaved. So, for 25 million slaves delivered to the market, we have an estimated death of about 120 million people. Islam ran the wholesale slave trade in Africa."

http://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/
When the slave trade became transatlantic it was basically under full cotrol of the British. By then the Americas and the North African nations were British and European colonies.

Quote:
During the 18th and 19th century, North Africa was colonized by France, the United Kingdom, Spain and Italy. During the 1950s and 1960s, and into the 1970s, all of the North African states gained independence from their colonial European rulers, except for a few small Spanish colonies on the far northern tip of Morocco, and parts of the Sahara region, which went from Spanish to Moroccan rule.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_North_Africa

While the Slave trade began in the 15 century, it was dominated by the British by the 17th century and thas was the era 12-14 million slaves were shipped to the Americas ad the British/European colonies in North Africa.



Quote:
Themes

The transatlantic slave trade was responsible for the forced migration of between 12 - 15 million people from Africa to the Western Hemisphere from the middle of the 15th century to the end of the 19th century. The trafficking of Africans by the major European countries during this period is sometimes referred to by African scholars as the Maafa ('great disaster' in Swahili). It's now considered a crime against humanity.


The slave trade not only led to the violent transportation overseas of millions of Africans but also to the deaths of many millions more. Nobody knows the total number of people who died during slave raiding and wars in Africa, during transportation and imprisonment, or in horrendous conditions during the so-called Middle Passage, the voyage from Africa to the Americas.


The kidnapping of Africans occurred mainly in the region that now stretches from Senegal to Angola. However, in the 19th century some enslaved Africans were also transported across the Atlantic from parts of eastern and south-eastern Africa.

The trade


All the major European powers were involved in this enterprise, but by the early 18th century, Britain became the world's leading slave trading power. It's estimated that British ships were responsible for the forced transportation of at least 2-3 million Africans in that century.


So dominant were British ships and merchants that they carried away African captives not only to British colonies in North America and the Caribbean but even to the colonies of their main economic rivals, the French and Spanish, as well as to others'.
The transatlantic slave trade: introduction
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Old 07-01-2015, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"They were being told Racism was wrong and that they were to obey rulers equally and treat all races equally."

However we see that Muhammed traded TWO black slaves for one white slave. Not equal. And comparing the head of a black man to a raisin isn't very nice. If Muhammed was saying to "treat all races equally", saying such a thing was certainly not the way to do that. Instead, Muhammed should have said : ""You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian slave, and by the way, slavery is wrong and all races should be treated equally. I am now going to free all my slaves, no matter what their race. You should do this also. All people are equal and none of us, especially me, should be owning and trading and selling slaves." But Muhammed did not say that.

SNIP
Is that because the white slave was viewed as worth more or because the slave trader saw an opportunity to make a profit. No where iare we told if the Slave owner was Muslim, Christian or Jew.

We only know he was a slave owner and made a profit selling the we slave for 2 black slaves. Law of business, the goal of a seller is to sell and make a profit. so basically-since he sold and was happy with the deal, He must have felt the 2 black slaves were worth more than one white slave An even trade would not have made him a profit. You need to sell at a higher price than what you bought a slave for, if you are going to make a profit selling slaves.
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