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Old 07-02-2015, 10:07 PM
 
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"From what I read, juju did not imply the Quran directly promote mass orgy."

I didn't, but in truth the Quran does seem to do exactly that.

Read carefully:
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

Allah is telling the Muslim men to go ahead and have intercourse....in truth, rape, the captive women in front of their husbands because the women are captives and the Muslim men possess them and have the right to rape them even if these women are already married. The timing is important to note....Allah tells them this after battle when 'some' men want to rape the women but "were reluctant". Allah says go for it. I wouldn't call it an orgy, but a mass rape.

That the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE should encourage rape of married women in front of their husband is one of many things that make me question that the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE wrote the Quran.
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Old 07-02-2015, 10:31 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,368 times
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"also Islam did not establish slavery but it was there . and Islam put rules for it."

Why didn't Islam STOP slavery? It is a horrible, evil thing. To own and trade and sell humans is just evil. Muhammed was supposed to be setting a good example for the future.

"remember there was no treaty for prison of war between two fighting people"

So that makes it OK to rape captive women and sell them and enslave them?

"the only way for slavery in Islam is when they are captive in the war and they are part of the fight ,
any person not participating in the fight should not be touched."

I do not think these women and children were fighting!
“…and then we attacked from all sides and reached their watering-place where a battle was fought. Some of the enemies were killed and some were taken prisoners. I saw a group of persons that consisted of women and children [escaping in the distance]. I was afraid lest they should reach the mountain before me, so I shot an arrow between them and the mountain. When they saw the arrow, they stopped. So I brought them, driving them along” (Sahin Muslim 4345)

"remember there was no treaty for prison of war between two fighting people"

So Muhammed and his men mass raped the women and then sold them or enslaved them.

"We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

"would you prefer to have the captive killed ? "

I would prefer that women not be raped and then enslaved or sold. That is just evil.

"The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)


"or would you like for the woman who is captive to be abused by many men?"

Women were raped and then sold. The women were passed around like party favors.

"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do coitus interruptus. A soul that which Allah has destined to exist will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)


"The apostle gave Ali a girl called Rayta; and he gave Uthman a girl called Zaynab; and he gave Umar a girl whom Umar gave to his son Abdullah." (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 878)


in Islam there are rules for treating the captive woman . such as

"if a woman was captured with her husband and they become under the custody of a man then the woman should not be touched."

Allah said to go ahead and rape them:
"Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

"no other man is allowed to touch her"

Actually, Muhammed SOLD women captives:
"Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham/Hisham 693)

"if the woman give a baby then she will be free when her master die"

Why should she be a slave at all? Why is Allah allowing women to be raped? Why is Muhammed selling women? This just does not make sense that the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE should be promoting these things.

"in general they treated Humanely and because of that many them become Muslim and rescued from the hell fire ."

Rape and slavery and being sold and having to see your fathers, sons and husbands killed by the men who will then rape you isn't humane. Threats of hell fire isn't humane.

Last edited by juju33312; 07-02-2015 at 10:32 PM.. Reason: bold a quote
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Old 07-02-2015, 10:45 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,653,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
The Last Sermon (Khutbah) of Prophet Muhammad (Farewell Sermon)

Then he (The Prophet Muhammadpeace and blessing of Allah be upon him ) came to the bottom of the valley, and addressed the people saying:
Verily your blood, your property are as sacred and inviolable as the sacredness of this day of yours, in this month of yours, in this town of yours.
Behold! Everything pertaining to the Days of Ignorance is under my feet completely abolished.
Abolished are also the blood-revenges of the Days of Ignorance.
The first claim of ours on blood-revenge which I abolish is that of the son of Rabi'a b. al-Harith, who was nursed among the tribe of Sa'd and killed by Hudhail.
And the usury of she pre-Islamic period is abolished, and the first of our usury I abolish is that of 'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib, for it is all abolished.
Fear Allah concerning women! Verily you have taken them on the security of Allah, and intercourse with them has been made lawful unto you by words of Allah.
You too have right over them, and that they should not allow anyone to sit on your bed whom you do not like.
But if they do that, you can chastise them but not severely.
Their rights upon you are that you should provide them with food and clothing in a fitting manner.
I have left among you the Book of Allah, and if you hold fast to it, you would never go astray.
And you would be asked about me (on the Day of Resurrection), (now tell me) what would you say?
They (the audience) said: We will bear witness that you have conveyed (the message),
discharged (the ministry of Prophethood) and given wise (sincere) counsel.

He (the narrator) said: He (the Holy Prophet) then raised his forefinger towards the sky and pointing it at the people (said):
" O Allah, be witness. 0 Allah, be witness," saying it thrice.


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Old 07-03-2015, 01:52 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,587,520 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
the name of the link is Islam and slavery and that is what we are discussing
Yes, specifically Islam and slavery, but you deviated into 'Europeans and Slavery' and its evilness.
truth_teller: ..When Europe made contact with Black Africa, this contact led to human misery during which the black people of that continent were faced with a major calamity
that lasted for five centuries.
The states of Europe came up with evil ways of kidnapping these people and...Islam and slavery - islamqa.info
Quote:
also Islam did not establish slavery but it was there . and Islam put rules for it.
remember there was no treaty for prison of war between two fighting people
the only way for slavery in Islam is when they are captive in the war and they are part of the fight ,
any person not participating in the fight should not be touched.
remember there was no treaty for prison of war between two fighting people
would you prefer to have the captive killed ?
or would you like for the woman who is captive to be abused by many men?
in Islam there are rules for treating the captive woman . such as
if a woman was captured with her husband and they become under the custody of a man then the woman should not be touched.
no other man is allowed to touch her
if the woman give a baby then she will be free when her master die
if she pregnant should not be touched until the baby is born
And non-pregnancy until menstruation menstrual cycle
in general they treated Humanely and because of that many them become Muslim and rescued from the hell fire .
I did not say Islam established slavery. Most of us are familiar slavery has existed thousands of years before Islam.

How do you know, there were no rules for slavery during those ancient times before Islam.
If you research on the subject of 'slavery,' you will not that slavery was an institution during ancient Roman times [more than 1500 before Islam] and thus there were rules for slavery.
It is very likely there were rules for slavery within the middle-east, Egypt, Persia and surrounding areas with established civilizations.

My point is the topic of slavery should never have been included in a holy texts as supposedly authored by an omnibenevolent and omnipotent God. From that we can infer the inclusion of slavery in a texts was not from God but rather human made.

The inclusion of slavery or anything as the immutable words of God imply that such rules are eternalized forever which is not rational nor practical. This meant that Muslims can keep slaves forever as long as they conform to the rules stated in the Quran or Hadiths. And this is one reason, why there are still slavery [as approved by Allah] around the world and it is difficult to get rid of this evil.

Note it took humanity and good humans thinking on their own to abolish slavery in most countries at present. Slavery is recognized as evil by humanity and the majority are working towards its eradications.
See the irony here, are fallible humans wrong on slavery at present or God is wrong?
It is obvious that there is something is wrong with God's condoning slavery in any form as stated in the holy texts.
The reason is, those texts were not communicated by any God but merely by humans in the 7th century.

Thus if present day humans can collectively correct some holy texts, they should be able to critique the errors and evils in all holy texts and propose improvements.

The fact that the Quran included some form of rules and elements on 'SLAVERY' [immoral by default] imply there is some fundamental flaws to it. As such it cannot be perfect and is not a book from God but from some humans.
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Old 07-03-2015, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Yes, specifically Islam and slavery, but you deviated into 'Europeans and Slavery' and its evilness.
truth_teller: ..When Europe made contact with Black Africa, this contact led to human misery during which the black people of that continent were faced with a major calamity
that lasted for five centuries.
The states of Europe came up with evil ways of kidnapping these people and...Islam and slavery - islamqa.info
I did not say Islam established slavery. Most of us are familiar slavery has existed thousands of years before Islam.

How do you know, there were no rules for slavery during those ancient times before Islam.
If you research on the subject of 'slavery,' you will not that slavery was an institution during ancient Roman times [more than 1500 before Islam] and thus there were rules for slavery.
It is very likely there were rules for slavery within the middle-east, Egypt, Persia and surrounding areas with established civilizations.

My point is the topic of slavery should never have been included in a holy texts as supposedly authored by an omnibenevolent and omnipotent God. From that we can infer the inclusion of slavery in a texts was not from God but rather human made.

The inclusion of slavery or anything as the immutable words of God imply that such rules are eternalized forever which is not rational nor practical. This meant that Muslims can keep slaves forever as long as they conform to the rules stated in the Quran or Hadiths. And this is one reason, why there are still slavery [as approved by Allah] around the world and it is difficult to get rid of this evil.

Note it took humanity and good humans thinking on their own to abolish slavery in most countries at present. Slavery is recognized as evil by humanity and the majority are working towards its eradications.
See the irony here, are fallible humans wrong on slavery at present or God is wrong?
It is obvious that there is something is wrong with God's condoning slavery in any form as stated in the holy texts.
The reason is, those texts were not communicated by any God but merely by humans in the 7th century.

Thus if present day humans can collectively correct some holy texts, they should be able to critique the errors and evils in all holy texts and propose improvements.

The fact that the Quran included some form of rules and elements on 'SLAVERY' [immoral by default] imply there is some fundamental flaws to it. As such it cannot be perfect and is not a book from God but from some humans.
However, it does give details of historical events. Again the qur;an is not commands nor does it teach Islam. It sets down the reasons and whys, but the act of performing Islam was taught by Muhammad(saws)

the best source of what is taught as Islam will be found in the Madhabs, fatwas and the Ahadith. Also what is passed down in families. Aperson's mother is almost always their first teacher of Islam and for many the only teacher they will ever have.
If a person is using the Qur'an as a recipe on how ro perorm Islam, they are probably misunderstanding. It is best seen as a book of reasons, not hows.
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Old 07-03-2015, 10:05 AM
 
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"Again the qur;an is not commands nor does it teach Islam."

"Verily, this Quran guides (humanity) to that which is most just."
[Noble Quran 17:9]

The Quran taught that slavery is allowed in Islam and by example Muhammed owned and traded and sold humans.

What does the Quran give as a reason for allowing slavery?
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Old 07-03-2015, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Again the qur;an is not commands nor does it teach Islam."

"Verily, this Quran guides (humanity) to that which is most just."
[Noble Quran 17:9]

The Quran taught that slavery is allowed in Islam and by example Muhammed owned and traded and sold humans.

What does the Quran give as a reason for allowing slavery?
While the Qur'an sets the reasons for Islam, the actual teaching of Islam was by Muhammad(swt)


the Qur'an placed limits on Slavery that led to the forbidding of it.

Quote:
MUHAMMAD THE ABOLITIONIST:
SLAVERY IN THE QUR'AN

by Adam Watson

(2002)


AUTHOR'S NOTE

The Holy Book of Islam has been given various English spellings over the years. I have chosen to use Qur'an. Scholars have also used Quran or Koran. When they have done so in quotes I have used for my essay (or in the titles of their works I am quoting), I have retained their particular spelling so as not to alter their original intent. Likewise, and more importantly, there is an unfortunate male chauvinism pervasive in some of these scholars' translations of the Qur'an, or in their comments; "Allah" and "humanity" as Male and men, respectively. (All but one of the scholars cited in my essay are male.) Although I try to be gender-neutral when using either concept, I retain their exact wording as given.

All verses quoted from The Qur'an are from Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation, unless otherwise noted (see Works Cited).
Muhammad the Abolitionist: Slavery in the Qur'an
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:32 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,653,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Allah is telling the Muslim men to go ahead and have intercourse....in truth, rape, the captive women in front of their husbands because the women are captives .
that is only your interpretation

show me the word rape or in front of their husbands in these verses
23 Forbidden unto you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your father's sisters, and your mother's sisters, and your brother's daughters and your sister's daughters, and your foster-mothers, and your foster-sisters, and your mothers-in-law, and your step-daughters who are under your protection (born) of your women unto whom ye have gone in - but if ye have not gone in unto them, then it is no sin for you (to marry their daughters) - and the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins. And (it is forbidden unto you) that ye should have two sisters together, except what hath already happened (of that nature) in the past. Lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

24 And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.





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Old 07-03-2015, 04:08 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,368 times
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"that is only your interpretation"

Yup, and it's a darn good one. Do you really think that women want men who have just attacked their village and taken their families as prisoner to now have sex with them in front of their husbands?

Let's read the verse again:

Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

Let's say a gang of men broke into your house and tied up you and your sons. Would your wife then want to have sex with these attackers in front of you? I say no, but you seem to be saying that she would.
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Old 07-03-2015, 04:51 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,368 times
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"While the Qur'an sets the reasons for Islam, the actual teaching of Islam was by Muhammad(swt)"

What does the Quran give as a reason for allowing slavery? And the mass rape of captive women?
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