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Old 07-02-2015, 02:28 PM
 
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Why do these two groups hate one another in the middle east? Was this part of Islam.
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Old 07-02-2015, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kell490 View Post
Why do these two groups hate one another in the middle east? Was this part of Islam.
Same old problem found world wide when you have s 2 very different cultures vying for the same piece of property.

The Persians (Iranians) are an Aryan race closely related to the Germanic and Nordic people. Nearly all Shi'ite in the Mideast are Persian or with close ties. Nearly all Sunni in the Mideast are Arab a Semitic People.

Add too this the different politics, culture and add in the massive oil wealth everyone is seeking to control and you have a formula for power struggles.

The Shi'ite/Sunni issue is non-existent outside the Mideast. Shi'ite and Sunni coexist peacefully in non-Mideastern Nations that have both.
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Old 07-02-2015, 06:27 PM
 
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Here is a post from a related thread recently here on CD that provides additional information regarding the OP inquiry:



Quote:
Originally Posted by RotseCherut View Post
Shia and Sunni Islam are considerably different and have completely different views about Mohammad and Prophet descendants.. Almost like a ladder day prophets. The Shias honor Ali as another prophet, whereas Sunnis only looked to Mohammad as the last prophet. As well, the Shias believe in a Messiah, the Mahdi who will help establish a Shia dominated ruler on Earth. This can somewhat be seem to correlate with the belief of a JEwish Messiah ruling in Jerusalem.

I am no scholar, but this is just a very quick and easy overview in why Sunnis and Shias hate each other. They basically have two different views of a religion that share the same theology and scriptures. What the Shias believe is considered harem to the Sunnis and vice versa. The Sunnis, especially, being the conquerors of the Aryan nation did not take kindly of a new Islamic sect arising which was a direct response to make Islam more palatable to the Persian people as well as embed more of their Zartosht (Zoroastrian) ancestry into the Islamic religion.

They basically had a great disdain and disgust for Arabic culture, language and the ancient Pre-Islamic Arabic traditions that were also ingrained within Sunni Islam..
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Old 07-02-2015, 06:36 PM
 
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and here is another recent related post, to give some additional background and flavor to the differences:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
That video explains Ithna Asharriyah (Twelver) Shi'a thought. The key difference above all else between a Shi'a and a Sunni in regards to Islamic Jurisprudence is that the Sunni will accept the testimony of *all* of the Prophet's companions whereas the Shi'a will limit their selection to Ahlul-Bayt.

How for instance they reject the testimony of Aisha (ra) when she was the wife of the Prophet (saw) is beyond comprehension. In the Qur'an Allah (swt) states, "The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers. Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties, in the Decree of Allah. Than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs: nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Decree (of Allah)." (Quran, 33:6)

So how could we reject her as some sort of liar or invalid commentator on what the Prophet (saw) said, did or how he lived his life?
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Old 07-03-2015, 02:57 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Why Sunni versus Shia?
We have to get back to humanity and human nature.

Dualism - Us versus Them
Dualism, i.e. 'us versus them' 'in-group versus out-group' was a default and inherent in human nature as it has survival values especially it was very critical say 100,000 years ago to identify who is the enemy who could threaten the group's or tribe's survival.

As humanity progress this "us versus them" instinct is less critical as more and more reach out to co-operate with those outside the group to tap into the synergy of groups.
Because this neural set of connectivity was established long ago it is a primal circuit that is embedded deep as an instinct.
This "us versus them" no more critical but it is still quite active and useful and it need to be modulated to facilitate co-operation to tap synergy (1+1 =3).
This us-versus-them drive acts subliminally within the psyche and that is why we still feel good when we are a part of a winning or a favored group in sports, politics, social .. and religion is no exception.

The Abrahamic Religions Leveraged on the "Us versus Them" Instinct
The biggest problem for humanity at present is because the Abrahamic religions exacerbate the primal inherent "us versus them" drive in humans when it should be inhibited and modulated as done by other progressive religions [Eastern].
This "us versus them" battle-cry is supposedly promoted by God as reflected in the verses of the holy texts communicated to prophets. Reality is this was done by lesser evolved humans driven by this primal us versus them instinct.

"Us versus Them" Sanctioned by God
Since believers accept the holy texts are immutable words of God promising them heaven and eternal life if they comply as close as possible or they will go to eternal hell if they sin, it is inevitable their "us versus them" will be heightened.

"Us versus Them" Embedded in the Quran
When one read the Quran, it is very notable the "us versus them" i.e. Muslims versus Kuffar or Muslim=heaven, Kuffar=go-to-hell is very pronounced and active as it is a matter of eternal life or eternal hell. Thus this inherent primordial 'us versus them" drive is very active within the Muslim's consciousness.

Because this dualistic "us versus them" is very active [life or death], any slight difference in situational, social, psychological factors will immediately [acting subliminal] separate them. Muhammad's imperialism has enable Islam and Muslims to conquer large swathe of lands and therefore there is a lot at stake in terms of physical wealth, social standings, cultural, etc. trigger by the active primordial instinct of "us versus them" divided them into two major groups, i.e. the Sunni and the Shia.

Why Sunni versus Shia will Remain
It is very difficult and painful for the Sunni and Shia to reconcile genuinely because the underlying is a matter of eternal life and eternal death leverage on very primordial neural circuits. It is a matter of dealing with primordial insecurity with either heaven or hell. Thus resistance to change is very entrenched in either beliefs and no side will one to give way. One treat the other as hypocrite and as per Quran be friendly [as genuine friends, allies, spiritual guardians] with hypocrites mean going to hell.

The Sunni and Shia will remain divided for a long time because their so-called immutable words of God and teachers anchored deeply in the primordial instinct of "us versus them".

How to Reconcile Sunni With Shia
The only effective method for both to reconcile is for them to recognize their enslavement to the "us versus them" instinct and the primordial existential lust at the basement of their brain. Then they have to cultivate more effective neural inhibitors to modulate these primitive drives and instinct to enable their higher human consciousness to blossom and be more active.

So, for now the Sunni and Shia will likely be a long term fact and the twain will never be reconcilable unless .........
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Old 07-03-2015, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,328,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Why Sunni versus Shia?
We have to get back to humanity and human nature.

Dualism - Us versus Them
Dualism, i.e. 'us versus them' 'in-group versus out-group' was a default and inherent in human nature as it has survival values especially it was very critical say 100,000 years ago to identify who is the enemy who could threaten the group's or tribe's survival.

As humanity progress this "us versus them" instinct is less critical as more and more reach out to co-operate with those outside the group to tap into the synergy of groups.
Because this neural set of connectivity was established long ago it is a primal circuit that is embedded deep as an instinct.
This "us versus them" no more critical but it is still quite active and useful and it need to be modulated to facilitate co-operation to tap synergy (1+1 =3).
This us-versus-them drive acts subliminally within the psyche and that is why we still feel good when we are a part of a winning or a favored group in sports, politics, social .. and religion is no exception.

The Abrahamic Religions Leveraged on the "Us versus Them" Instinct
The biggest problem for humanity at present is because the Abrahamic religions exacerbate the primal inherent "us versus them" drive in humans when it should be inhibited and modulated as done by other progressive religions [Eastern].
This "us versus them" battle-cry is supposedly promoted by God as reflected in the verses of the holy texts communicated to prophets. Reality is this was done by lesser evolved humans driven by this primal us versus them instinct.

"Us versus Them" Sanctioned by God
Since believers accept the holy texts are immutable words of God promising them heaven and eternal life if they comply as close as possible or they will go to eternal hell if they sin, it is inevitable their "us versus them" will be heightened.

"Us versus Them" Embedded in the Quran
When one read the Quran, it is very notable the "us versus them" i.e. Muslims versus Kuffar or Muslim=heaven, Kuffar=go-to-hell is very pronounced and active as it is a matter of eternal life or eternal hell. Thus this inherent primordial 'us versus them" drive is very active within the Muslim's consciousness.

Because this dualistic "us versus them" is very active [life or death], any slight difference in situational, social, psychological factors will immediately [acting subliminal] separate them. Muhammad's imperialism has enable Islam and Muslims to conquer large swathe of lands and therefore there is a lot at stake in terms of physical wealth, social standings, cultural, etc. trigger by the active primordial instinct of "us versus them" divided them into two major groups, i.e. the Sunni and the Shia.

Why Sunni versus Shia will Remain
It is very difficult and painful for the Sunni and Shia to reconcile genuinely because the underlying is a matter of eternal life and eternal death leverage on very primordial neural circuits. It is a matter of dealing with primordial insecurity with either heaven or hell. Thus resistance to change is very entrenched in either beliefs and no side will one to give way. One treat the other as hypocrite and as per Quran be friendly [as genuine friends, allies, spiritual guardians] with hypocrites mean going to hell.

The Sunni and Shia will remain divided for a long time because their so-called immutable words of God and teachers anchored deeply in the primordial instinct of "us versus them".

How to Reconcile Sunni With Shia
The only effective method for both to reconcile is for them to recognize their enslavement to the "us versus them" instinct and the primordial existential lust at the basement of their brain. Then they have to cultivate more effective neural inhibitors to modulate these primitive drives and instinct to enable their higher human consciousness to blossom and be more active.

So, for now the Sunni and Shia will likely be a long term fact and the twain will never be reconcilable unless .........
While there are no large Shi'ite populations outside Iran and Iraq there are a noticible number in Morocco and there does not seem to be any conflicts. The larges Shi'ite population outside of the Mideast is probably Dearborn Michigan and it is shared with about an equal number of Sunni, again no conflicts.

Should also be noted Shi'ite and Sunni perform Hajj together in Mecca and world wide it is common for shi'ite and sunne to pray in the same mosque,
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Old 07-03-2015, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While there are no large Shi'ite populations outside Iran and Iraq there are a noticible number in Morocco and there does not seem to be any conflicts. The larges Shi'ite population outside of the Mideast is probably Dearborn Michigan and it is shared with about an equal number of Sunni, again no conflicts.

Should also be noted Shi'ite and Sunni perform Hajj together in Mecca and world wide it is common for shi'ite and sunne to pray in the same mosque,
As a Muslim you are vulnerable to be bias and very likely to avoid facts that are not pleasant.
As a typical non-Muslim I am naturally objective and rational.

Note the facts of Shia persecutions around the world [re wiki]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Shi'ism

<li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-1">1Historical Persecution <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-8">2Modern Times
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Old 07-03-2015, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As a Muslim you are vulnerable to be bias and very likely to avoid facts that are not pleasant.
As a typical non-Muslim I am naturally objective and rational.

Note the facts of Shia persecutions around the world [re wiki]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Shi'ism

<li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-1">1Historical Persecution <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-8">2Modern Times
My oldest Daughter's husband is Shi'ite. From Marrakesh Morocco. Many Shi'ites in Austin often go to the Sunni Mosques and when in the neighborhood Sunni often go to the only Shi'ite Mosque in Austin.
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Old 07-04-2015, 12:55 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
My oldest Daughter's husband is Shi'ite. From Marrakesh Morocco. Many Shi'ites in Austin often go to the Sunni Mosques and when in the neighborhood Sunni often go to the only Shi'ite Mosque in Austin.
The point is your views are very narrow and you presented as if there are no issues between Shias outside Iraq and Iran.

The link I provided
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Shi'ism
is to prove otherwise.

The problem is not with the majority Muslims [like you perhaps] who are capable of letting their humanity shine through and thus are not influenced so much by the "us versus them" primal virus that is inherent in the Quran and from the lower brain.

The real problem is related to what is factual in the Quran [55% of the flaming of the 'us versus them' primal impulse] influencing the MINORITY of Muslims. Note minority of 20% is 300 millions! and even 1% is 15 millions. So the minority's is very small percentage but a very significant quantum.
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Old 07-04-2015, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,328,790 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point is your views are very narrow and you presented as if there are no issues between Shias outside Iraq and Iran.

The link I provided
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Shi'ism
is to prove otherwise.

The problem is not with the majority Muslims [like you perhaps] who are capable of letting their humanity shine through and thus are not influenced so much by the "us versus them" primal virus that is inherent in the Quran and from the lower brain.

The real problem is related to what is factual in the Quran [55% of the flaming of the 'us versus them' primal impulse] influencing the MINORITY of Muslims. Note minority of 20% is 300 millions! and even 1% is 15 millions. So the minority's is very small percentage but a very significant quantum.
The problem is we are individuals and would like to be trated as individuals.

We are not clones of each other and follow some preconceieved as to what a Muslim is.

While one can develop a model based upon averages, that model will not fit any one.

It is like having 2 people one 3 feet tall and the other 7 feet tall that makes the average hight of the 2 as 5 feet tall and neither one is 5 feet tall.

Yes a I have a very narrow view, it is based upon what I personally have seen and lived. Not a projection of what averages say should be. I treat all people as individuals and do not try to say any one matches what I have read. I look at individuals and do not see any one as average of whatever there ideologies might be. I Know Muslims, Jews, Christians, Atheists etc that are very woderful people and I feel blessed they are part of my life. I also know people of the same followings that are real "Pains-in-the-Patootie" and I wish they had never come into my life.

I agree I have a very narrow view--I do not see any individual as representative of a group. I see each person as an individual and like all people a complex set of facets and very different from every other person.
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