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Old 07-09-2015, 11:12 PM
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,594,359 times
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Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Or sincere belief? Further in Islam there is no such thing as forced conversion. [Quran 2:256 is explicit in this] All religions have the option of paying the Jizya tax to the State, or moving. Further the Muslims within the State must pay Zakat to the State. The non-Muslims are exempt from military service and are guranteed protection by the Muslim State of their property, places of worship and may hold their own non-Shari'a based courts and even develop their own internal political systems. This was evident and most apparent in recent history through the Ottoman's millet system.
Quran 2:256 was a recited during his early stages and this in context is abrogated by the later 'sword' verse and its related verses. 2:256 was raised in relation to Muhammad advising the newly converted Muslims not to force their sons to be Muslims.
By the time of Chapter 9 and 5 Muhammad came up with the 'sword' verses and showed no mercy to non-believers with provisions to kill them where necessary.

As I had pointed out, Muhammad and his army has to depend on the minority to do the intelligent and hard work so that they can be 'leeched.' This is common in wars between Nations and groups [gangs - mafia, yakuza, etc.]. Thus there will be events of total exterminations and in other cases non-Muslims must live under conditions of subservience [slave-like].

There is no contradiction there and you might be the first person I've ever encountered whom has made that argument.
You will find I will make a lot of arguments that you would have encountered the first time. I am not a Muslims nor religious, therefore it is easy for me to review the Quran objectively. Note I mentioned I review the Quran from many perspectives and VERY WIDE perspectives.

What you're missing is understanding and context. In Surat Ibrahim (Quran 14, where you are quoting from) Allah (swt) is explaining how he sent messengers to Bani Israel, so that they may guide and correct the people of Bani Israel (amongst others) and so that they may spread the message of Islam (submittance to the will of God) amongst *all* people...however Bani Israel either rejected the messengers (as in the case of Jesus (ra)), corrupted the Taurat through intentional manipulation or misinterpretation, and/or took the word of their Rabbi's as infallible and thus made them God-like and thus did not spread the message as Allah (swt). Allah (swt) therefore sent the message to the Arabs in the beautiful and poetic language of Arabic so that they may spread the message amongst all nations and be an example for the world.
Note 14:4 again.
14:4. And We NEVER sent a messenger save [except] with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them.
The above is straightforward, i.e.
it meant God will ONLY send a messenger who can speak Tamil to folks whose language is Tamil.
it meant God will ONLY send a messenger who can speak 'X' to folks whose language is 'X' so that he can make the message clear for them.
Thus God had specifically sent Muhammad who can speak Arabic to folks whose language is Arabic.

Thus Muhammad Quran should not be spread to folks of other languages because God will do his part as per 14:4.

Therefore the spreading of the specifically-Arabic-Quran to folks of locations of those do not speak Arabic is going against God's statement in 14:4. That is why there is so much misinterpretations and controversies.

Note, in the above I am interpreting the verse in the context of the whole Quran, Muhammad, the location and Islam.

However when I extend the perspective wider philosophically my points are;
1. God does not exist
2. Thus are no God-sent messengers.
3. Messengers are self-proclaimed
4. All holy texts are constructed by humans

It is because the holy texts are constructed by humans that set about the contravention re 14:4. Had there been a real omnipotent and omniscient god, it would have the power to curb the contravention.

Further from a practical standpoint I can tell you that some of the best scholars and reciters of Quran are non-Arabs. Not only do they not lack understanding but they can "sing" the Quran in the most beautiful poetic way, it truly enchants the heart to hear them.
If you study the science and philosophy of sound, you will understand why.
There are music that can make one happy, sad, angry and stir all sorts of emotions.
There are some music that can motivate people to commit suicide.
Press reports in the 1930s associated at least nineteen suicides, both in Hungary and the United States, with "Gloomy Sunday", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloomy_Sunday

The impact is greater with religious songs, hymns and music [due to the specific arrangements] which do soothe the mind. Therefore the emotional impact from listening to Quranic music is no different by Christian hymns, eastern religion chantings, etc. and that generally effect all humans.

The point is re 14:4 by the dictate of Allah, the specifically-Arabic-Quran should NEVER be spread to locations of folks whose language is not-Arabic.
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Old 07-10-2015, 12:10 AM
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,594,359 times
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
To understand Islam one must understand De'en is not the same concept of religion as the English word Religion.

De'en is the manner in which a person lives. The act of doing Islam is part of our life just as following Buddha is part of a Buddhist life, worshiping The G-d of the Prophets is part of Jews life, Not worshiping a deity is part of an Atheists life. etc.
All humans has the same DNA with some slight variations in RNA. Therefore this 'De'en' from the fundamentals of the generic DNA is the same for all.
Analogically, it is the same with the generic sexual, hunger, security, and other common instincts of humans.

De'en as I interpret from the Quran is not the manner in which a person lives.
It is the fundamental spiritual drive that is generic to all humans [same DNA] and religions, and the various ways of life are the Forms of manifestation of this generic 'De'en'.

To understand this "De'en" one has to study it from the perspective of 'Philosophy of De'en.' In Buddhism and Hinduism it is called the Dharma. This is not an easy concept to understand and one require very fine insights and heavy philosophy to comprehend what it really is.

From reading of the Quran thoroughly, the Quran only deal with the 'De'en-proper' very superficially as with all the conventional Abrahamic religions. Thus the forms that express this fundamental 'De'en' in the Quran are very crude and in some aspects get shrouded by evil elements in the later stages.
The problem is some Muslims get a sense of 'De'en' within the Quran, but because it is so superficial, they imagine the Quran is the full representative of the 'De'en' [or Dharma] of humanity. Nah.. this is short-sighted and wrong.

Those who try to expound the 'De'en' in a more refined ways are the Sufis, the Mutzalites and other higher order Islamist mystics. But they are condemned as herectics when in truths they are progressing toward the higher and more refined aspects of the "De'en."

IMO, the typical majority of Muslims are straightjacketed as zombies by the current ethos of Islam and are confined to the grade-school-standard of spirituality with a potential exposure to some side-effects of malignant evil-laden verses. The reality of this are represented by the terrible and a range of evils committed by SOME Muslims around the world.

Muslims, myself included do believe the Qur'an is the actual word of Allaah(swt)
and not of any Human.
As a conventional Muslim you have to, otherwise you are deemed to go to hell to be tortured with fire where, after your skin is burnt, will be eternally replaced with new skins to be burnt so suffer eternal pains.

It is a dialect that no one has ever been able to use in a conversation. No one
has been able to compose a single original sentence in Qur'anic Arabic. Yet it
can be understood by those fluent in any dialect of Arabic, I believe also
Hebrew and Aramaic. I base that only on Jewish friends and relatives that have
tole me they can understand the recitations of the Qur'an. It may be noticed
that Arabic follows the trend of Abrahamic Scripture Hebrew to Aramaic to
Once we understand the generic spiritual drive the Dharma [De'en] properly, language as a mean of communications is merely secondary. I am sure you know, language is merely a mean not and end.

Hey.. no big deal. Thousands of years before Islam, the Eastern religions has been compiling religion texts that represent a range of philosophies from the simple to the most complex. It is just because you are ignorant about them. The Quran-in-Arabic when understood is kindergarten stuff when compared the higher order philosophies of the Eastern religions.
You only think it is great because of emotional and cognitive bias.

forced conversations never work. It takes too much manpower to keep a people in submission. For the majority of Islamic history Muslims were always a minority except in the Mideast.The largest growth for Islam has been in the Far East with no migration of Muslims into the region.

Before the Partioning of India India was less than 25 % Muslim, with most living in Punjab which became Pakistan and Bengal which became East Pakistan and then Bangladesh.

while about 75% of the world's Muslims live in Just 6 Nations ( 4 before the Partion of India) They have virtually a zero Arab population. Those nations are Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and India They are a very small minority in India and Chinas although India has the 5th largest Muslim poulation in the world Most of the Muslim nations are very small. More Muslims live in the USA than in the 6 smallest Muslim Nations combined.

this does not seem to indicate any massive forcible take over occurred.
The Quran condoned 'forced conversion' directly and indirectly in its initial stages of imperialism if you take the whole of Islam in context from every perspectives. Thereafter it happened sporadically and it evident with ISIS, Boko Haram etc.
Of course no one like to be forced to be converted, but many will grow into it and the later generations will be groomed into the religion naturally.

I did not deny there are natural growth of Muslim populations by means other than forced conversions.

Last edited by Continuum; 07-10-2015 at 12:22 AM..
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Old 07-10-2015, 12:35 AM
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,594,359 times
Reputation: 461
Continuum: Hey.. no big deal. Thousands of years before Islam, the Eastern religions has been compiling religion texts that represent a range of philosophies from the simple to the most complex. It is just because you are ignorant about them. The Quran-in-Arabic when understood is kindergarten stuff when compared to the higher order philosophies of the Eastern religions.
You only think it is great because of emotional and cognitive bias.

Note one example amongst the many;

The Mahabharata [5-9 century BC] is the longest known epic poem and has been described as "the longest poem ever written". Its longest version consists of over 100,000 shloka or over 200,000 individual verse lines (each shloka is a couplet), and long prose passages. About 1.8 million words in total, the Mahabharata is roughly ten times the length of the Iliad and the Odyssey combined, or about four times the length of the Ramayana. -wiki [mine]

There are many other great texts from Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, and others which were written very long before the Quran which is crude by their standards.

These texts are primary directed toward the specific spiritual drive of humanity to deal with the existential dilemma and are not dominated by evil and violent elements like the Quran.

For warfare, the Chinese has 'The Sun Tzu Art of War' which is independent of the spiritual Tao Te Ching and others. This specialization is more effective than the Quran messing religiosity with warfare.
War is evil and Just-War is just evil.
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Old 07-23-2015, 12:53 PM
352 posts, read 309,422 times
Reputation: 54
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon you.

Sura 25 - Al-Furqan (MAKKA) : Verse 51
Had We so willed, We would have sent a (separate) warner for every town, (but, according to Our wisdom, We have sent Muhammad as a prophet for all these towns)
Translation : Eng-Mufti Taqi Usmani

Sura 6 - Al-Anaam (MAKKA) : Verse 42
Before thee We sent (Messengers) to many nations, and We afflicted the nations with suffering and adversity that they might learn humility.
Translation : Eng-Yusuf Ali

Sura 25 - Al-Furqan (MAKKA) : Verse 51
Had it been Our Will, We could have sent a warner to every center of population
Translation : Eng-Yusuf Ali

Sura 11 - Hud (MAKKA) : Verse 25
We sent Nuh to his people (saying to them): I am here to warn you
Translation : Eng-Mufti Taqi Usmani

Sura 7 - Al-Araf (MAKKA) : Verse 34
And every nation hath its term, and when its term cometh, they cannot put it off an hour nor yet advance (it).
Translation : Eng-Pickthal-Audio

Quran Explorer

Wassalaam. devotee
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