U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-08-2015, 01:41 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

From my reading of the Quran, I read the Quran is meant only to be local and not universal.

Despite the term 'mankind' is mentioned around 200 times, it is meant to be used loosely as far as in relation to the Quran is concerned.
Here is the justification why?
Pickthall 14:1. Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture which We have revealed unto thee (Muhammad) that thereby thou mayst bring forth mankind from darkness unto light, by the permission of their Lord, unto the path of the Mighty, the Owner of Praise.

Pickthall 14:4. And We never sent a messenger save [except] with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them. Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Wise
In 14:1 'Mankind' is mentioned but this term is followed by and confined to 'language of his folk.' Therefore it is Arabic then 'mankind' is restricted to those who speak Arabic only. In the 7th century this is confined to location within the Arabian peninsula and specifically the Meccans.
Pickthall 13:37. Thus have We revealed it, a decisive utterance in Arabic and if thou shouldst follow their [deniers] desires after that which hath come unto thee of knowledge, then truly wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting friend nor defender.
Since the Quran is restricted to Arabic, therefore by 14:4 the Quran is only restricted to those with the language of his folk, i.e. those who speak Arabs within the locality of the messenger.

Therefore the Quran was never meant by Allah to be applicable to those outside the reach of Muhammad.

The above is merely a hypothesis.
Your views?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-08-2015, 12:00 PM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,696,928 times
Reputation: 9157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From my reading of the Quran, I read the Quran is meant only to be local and not universal.

Therefore the Quran was never meant by Allah to be applicable to those outside the reach of Muhammad.

The above is merely a hypothesis.
Your views?

Others have noted the same, including Muhammad himself

"Within the DNA of Islam is a self-destructive element: a prophecy by Mohammed in which he said that Islam will eventually be rejected by the world and would return back to where it came from. Ask your local imam, and he’ll tell you: Mohammed doesn’t lie.

Incredibly, Mohammed himself was not optimistic about his own message and the future of Islam and Muslims:
[T]he Messenger of Allah (Mohammed) observed: Verily Islam started as something strange and it would again revert (to its old position) of being strange just as it started, and it would recede between the two mosques just as the serpent crawls back into its hole." [Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0270.]
In this hadith, Mohammed foretold that the end of Islam would be strange just like its beginning and that it would shrink back to the limited area where it came from - - between the two mosques of Mecca and Medina.

Could that prediction by Mohammed himself be a signal of the inevitable demise of Islam? Mohammed’s predictions of Islam crawling back like a snake to where it came from were repeated extensively in several other hadiths:

“There will be much killing during the last days of the Muslim." (Sahih Bukhari, 9.88.183.)

"Verily, Belief returns and goes back to Medina as a snake returns and goes back to its hole (when in danger)." (Volume 3, Book 30, Number 100: Narrated Abu Huraira.)

Mohammed also predicted a large movement of apostasy out of Islam:
“Muslims will diminish in number and they will go back to where they started [before Islam]” (Sunaan Abu Dawud, 2.19.3029.)

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 07-08-2015 at 12:10 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-08-2015, 12:15 PM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,696,928 times
Reputation: 9157
here is text detail:

"Islam was initiated as something strange, and it would revert to its (old position) of being strange, and it would concentrate between the two mosques"
Sahih Muslim / by Imam Muslim, translation by Abdul Hamid Siddiqui , Volume: The Book of Faith (Kitab Al-Iman)

270. It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Islam initiated as something strange, and it would revert to its (old position) of being strange.

271. It is narrated on the authority of Ibn 'Umar ('Abdullah b. 'Umar) that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: Verily Islam started as something strange and it would again revert (to its old position) of being strange just as it started, and it would recede between the two mosques just as the serpent crawls back into its hole.

272. It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Verily the faith would recede to Medina just as the serpent crawls back into its hole.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 07-08-2015 at 12:41 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-08-2015, 12:37 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 770,416 times
Reputation: 841
This is a good question. It was posed to the scholars of Islam-QA and this was their response: How can the Qur
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-08-2015, 12:40 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 770,416 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Others have noted the same, including Muhammad himself

"Within the DNA of Islam is a self-destructive element: a prophecy by Mohammed in which he said that Islam will eventually be rejected by the world and would return back to where it came from. Ask your local imam, and he’ll tell you: Mohammed doesn’t lie.

Incredibly, Mohammed himself was not optimistic about his own message and the future of Islam and Muslims:
[T]he Messenger of Allah (Mohammed) observed: Verily Islam started as something strange and it would again revert (to its old position) of being strange just as it started, and it would recede between the two mosques just as the serpent crawls back into its hole." [Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0270.]
In this hadith, Mohammed foretold that the end of Islam would be strange just like its beginning and that it would shrink back to the limited area where it came from - - between the two mosques of Mecca and Medina.

Could that prediction by Mohammed himself be a signal of the inevitable demise of Islam? Mohammed’s predictions of Islam crawling back like a snake to where it came from were repeated extensively in several other hadiths:

“There will be much killing during the last days of the Muslim." (Sahih Bukhari, 9.88.183.)

"Verily, Belief returns and goes back to Medina as a snake returns and goes back to its hole (when in danger)." (Volume 3, Book 30, Number 100: Narrated Abu Huraira.)

Mohammed also predicted a large movement of apostasy out of Islam:
“Muslims will diminish in number and they will go back to where they started [before Islam]” (Sunaan Abu Dawud, 2.19.3029.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
here is text detail:

ISLAM WAS INITIATED AS SOMETHING STRANGE, AND IT WOULD REVERT TO ITS (OLD POSITION) OF BEING STRANGE, AND IT WOULD CONCENTRATE BETWEEN THE TWO MOSQUES
Sahih Muslim / by Imam Muslim, translation by Abdul Hamid Siddiqui , Volume: The Book of Faith (Kitab Al-Iman)

270. It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Islam initiated as something strange, and it would revert to its (old position) of being strange.

271. It is narrated on the authority of Ibn 'Umar ('Abdullah b. 'Umar) that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: Verily Islam started as something strange and it would again revert (to its old position) of being strange just as it started, and it would recede between the two mosques just as the serpent crawls back into its hole.

272. It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Verily the faith would recede to Medina just as the serpent crawls back into its hole.
You're understanding is correct. Islam (submittance to the will of God) will become very foreign and strange, even within the context of what we know now as the Muslim world. What's meant by the Prophet (saw) is that true believers and true practicioners of the faith will shrink in number at some time in the future.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-08-2015, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
This is a good question. It was posed to the scholars of Islam-QA and this was their response: How can the Qur
From the link above;

Quote:
Hence many of the non-Arabs became Muslim because of coming across the
meaning of a verse. In such cases, this non-Arab could not understand its eloquence and style, but its meaning is the reason why he became Muslim.
There are many reasons how non-Arabs became Muslims, i.e.

1. Followers [in the early days] who will following anything controversial
2. Forced conversions or die
3. Because it fit their psychological profile and state by reason or otherwise
4. Etc.

However that is not my point.

My point is 14:4, i.e.
Pickthall 14:4. And We NEVER sent a messenger save [except] with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them.
Strictly from the above [note 'NEVER'], Allah had no intention of - what was told to Muhammad in Arabic - to be applicable at all to those who cannot speak Arabic.
This meant that Allah had and will ONLY send messengers to people of the same language in various parts of the world
Therefore Islam [Muhammad + Quran] by the words of Allah, should not have been proselytized or forced upon people outside the Arabian peninsula.

The fact that Islam is spread to non-Arabs all over the world implied that someone has gone against the intention of Allah.

Literally, this is an obvious contradiction.
The reason is because the Quran was never from God but invented by humans.

Most Muslims being very bias think that Islam-in-Arabic is the most superior, but from the perspective of philosophy of religion, I would rate it at grade school standard compared to others [e.g. the main Eastern religions] which are rated at PhD standard.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-09-2015, 08:41 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 770,416 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From the link above;

There are many reasons how non-Arabs became Muslims, i.e.

1. Followers [in the early days] who will following anything controversial
2. Forced conversions or die
3. Because it fit their psychological profile and state by reason or otherwise
4. Etc.
Or sincere belief? Further in Islam there is no such thing as forced conversion. [Quran 2:256 is explicit in this] All religions have the option of paying the Jizya tax to the State, or moving. Further the Muslims within the State must pay Zakat to the State. The non-Muslims are exempt from military service and are guranteed protection by the Muslim State of their property, places of worship and may hold their own non-Shari'a based courts and even develop their own internal political systems. This was evident and most apparent in recent history through the Ottoman's millet system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
However that is not my point.

My point is 14:4, i.e.
Pickthall 14:4. And We NEVER sent a messenger save [except] with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them.
Strictly from the above [note 'NEVER'], Allah had no intention of - what was told to Muhammad in Arabic - to be applicable at all to those who cannot speak Arabic.
This meant that Allah had and will ONLY send messengers to people of the same language in various parts of the world
Therefore Islam [Muhammad + Quran] by the words of Allah, should not have been proselytized or forced upon people outside the Arabian peninsula.

The fact that Islam is spread to non-Arabs all over the world implied that someone has gone against the intention of Allah.

Literally, this is an obvious contradiction.
The reason is because the Quran was never from God but invented by humans.

Most Muslims being very bias think that Islam-in-Arabic is the most superior, but from the perspective of philosophy of religion, I would rate it at grade school standard compared to others [e.g. the main Eastern religions] which are rated at PhD standard.
There is no contradiction there and you might be the first person I've ever encountered whom has made that argument.

What you're missing is understanding and context. In Surat Ibrahim (Quran 14, where you are quoting from) Allah (swt) is explaining how he sent messengers to Bani Israel, so that they may guide and correct the people of Bani Israel (amongst others) and so that they may spread the message of Islam (submittance to the will of God) amongst *all* people...however Bani Israel either rejected the messengers (as in the case of Jesus (ra)), corrupted the Taurat through intentional manipulation or misinterpretation, and/or took the word of their Rabbi's as infallible and thus made them God-like and thus did not spread the message as Allah (swt). Allah (swt) therefore sent the message to the Arabs in the beautiful and poetic language of Arabic so that they may spread the message amongst all nations and be an example for the world.

Further from a practical standpoint I can tell you that some of the best scholars and reciters of Quran are non-Arabs. Not only do they not lack understanding but they can "sing" the Quran in the most beautiful poetic way, it truly enchants the heart to hear them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-09-2015, 08:47 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 770,416 times
Reputation: 841
On another note what I highly-highly suggest if you are truly academically interested in discussing or debating the Quran (and not simply trying to stir up debate in a forum that is not made of very learned people) is to pose your questions to the most qualified Imam or Islamic scholar in your area and/or submit your inquiries to scholars like Yasir Qadhi, Nouman Ali Khan or even submit the question to the people at Islam-QA. Reading and coming up with your own fatwas from the Quran without even a basic understanding of Arabic and no knowledge of tafsir, hadeeth, seerah, etc... is a recipe for disaster. Al-Qaeda comes to mind...

As reference to the qualifications of a true scholar of the Quran, in order to just be *accepted to study* at the University of Madinah school of Quran, one must already have memorized the entirety of the Quran in Arabic, it's meaning and have a basic understanding of tafsir. That's what makes one qualified to even begin a Bachelor's degree, none the less begin a PhD. Not to be disparaging (as *I* am not nearly qualified as well and fall in this bucket) but you may want to humble yourself a bit before coming up with your own conclusions and defining what you think may be contradictions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-09-2015, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From the link above;

There are many reasons how non-Arabs became Muslims, i.e.

1. Followers [in the early days] who will following anything controversial
2. Forced conversions or die
3. Because it fit their psychological profile and state by reason or otherwise
4. Etc.

However that is not my point.

My point is 14:4, i.e.
Pickthall 14:4. And We NEVER sent a messenger save [except] with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them.
Strictly from the above [note 'NEVER'], Allah had no intention of - what was told to Muhammad in Arabic - to be applicable at all to those who cannot speak Arabic.
This meant that Allah had and will ONLY send messengers to people of the same language in various parts of the world
Therefore Islam [Muhammad + Quran] by the words of Allah, should not have been proselytized or forced upon people outside the Arabian peninsula.

The fact that Islam is spread to non-Arabs all over the world implied that someone has gone against the intention of Allah.

Literally, this is an obvious contradiction.
The reason is because the Quran was never from God but invented by humans.

Most Muslims being very bias think that Islam-in-Arabic is the most superior, but from the perspective of philosophy of religion, I would rate it at grade school standard compared to others [e.g. the main Eastern religions] which are rated at PhD standard.

To understand Islam one must understand De'en is not the same concept of religion as the English word Religion.

De'en is the manner in which a person lives. The act of doing Islam is part of our life just as following Buddha is part of a Buddhist life, worshiping The G-d of the Prophets is part of Jews life, Not worshiping a deity is part of an Atheists life. etc

Muslims, myself included do believe the Qur'an is the actual word of Allaah(swt) and not of any Human.

It is a dialect that no one has ever been able to use in a conversation. No one has been able to compose a single original sentence in Qur'anic Arabic. Yet it can be understood by those fluent in any dialect of Arabic, I believe also Hebrew and Aramaic. I base that only on Jewish friends and relatives that have tole me they can understand the recitations of the Qur'an. It may be noticed that Arabic follows the trend of Abrahamic Scripture Hebrew to Aramaic to Arabic.

forced conversations never work. It takes too much manpower to keep a people in submission. For the majority of Islamic history Muslims were always a minority except in the Mideast.The largest growth for Islam has been in the Far East with no migration of Muslims into the region.

Before the Partioning of India India was less than 25 % Muslim, with most living in Punjab which became Pakistan and Bengal which became East Pakistan and then Bangladesh.


while about 75% of the world's Muslims live in Just 6 Nations ( 4 before the Partion of India) They have virtually a zero Arab population. Those nations are Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and India They are a very small minority in India and Chinas although India has the 5th largest Muslim poulation in the world Most of the Muslim nations are very small. More Muslims live in the USA than in the 6 smallest Muslim Nations combined.

this does not seem to indicate any massive forcible take over occured.







5 of the World's Muslims live in
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-09-2015, 08:44 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,653,330 times
Reputation: 115
now a days there are translation of the Quran in the main and many languages

in the past there must be also another alternative for non Arab to under stand Islam
The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said,
Convey from me, even one verse

The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said,
"I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me.
1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey.
2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying
and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due.
3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me.
4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection).
5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top