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Old 07-12-2015, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,355,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
The more peaceful verses in Islam were abrogated, wiped out, by later verses like these:
(Translation is from the Noble Quran)

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." This verse promotes violence as be virtuous and contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home). Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward " This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence and puts an end to
the myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle.

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Not does not mean 'on'. This explicitly puts to rest the claim that all violence was to occur only on the 'last day'.

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."

Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense.

Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam.

Quran (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"

Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..."

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."

Quran (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" The verse explicitly refers to "battle array" meaning that it is speaking of physical conflict. This is followed by (61:9): "He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist."

Quran (61:10-12) - "O You who believe! Shall I guide you to a commerce that will save you from a painful torment. That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad ), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know! (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwelling in Gardens of 'Adn - Eternity ['Adn (Edn) Paradise], that is indeed the great success."

Quran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

There is mention of slaughtering Jews on the last day:

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
In the Qur'an abrogation did not eliminate the validity of anything.


The Verse of the Sword [9:5] and Abrogation

Imam Suyuti specifically discusses this verse in relation to other verses of peace, patience, and forgiving. He explains that, contrary to what some Imams believed, this is not a case of abrogation but rather of context. In certain situations, the verses of patience and forgiving apply, while in other situations the verse of the sword applies. No verse was completely abolished by another, but rather each has a specific context and applicability.

[Al-Itqan fi Ulum al-Qur’an]

This understanding is reinforced by the eminent jurist and legal theorist Imam Zarkashi in his masterful work on Qur’anic sciences, “Al-Burhan fi Ulum al-Qur’an.” He explains that many commentators of the Qur’an were incorrect in their understanding that the Verse of the Sword abrogated the various verses of patience and forbearance. This is because “abrogation” entails a complete termination of a legal ruling, never again to be implemented. This is definitely not the case with these verses. Rather, each verse entails a particular ruling conjoined to a particular context and situation. As circumstances change, different verses are to applied instead of others. No ruling is permanently terminated though, which is what is entailed by true abrogation.

He concludes his discussion by saying, “The verse of the sword by no means abrogated the verses of peace – rather, each is to be implemented in its appropriate situation.”

[Al-Burhan fi Ulum al-Qur’an]

Jihad, Abrogation in the Quran & the “Verse of the Sword”
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As to what constitutes shallow and biased thinking depends on what side of the coin one is presenting.

If one side is being presented, it is justified to show the opposite side.

All people need to see all facets, if they are to reach their own conclusions.

I can only present what I have seen. Yes, it has been over 40 years since i lived in the Mideast and North Africa, but during that time I never once heard any non-Muslims called Kaffir.
One can assess "shallowness" and "biasness" from the contents and depths you had addressed.

I mentioned the word "Kafir" and all you did is to educate me on its etymology in this very specific context of Islam State -IS re ISIS.

It is just like you mentioned the term 'black' in the Charleston case, and I proceed to educate you on the original etymology of the word 'black' i.e. color.

When I mentioned the term "Kafir" and "Kuffar," there is no need for you to go back to its etymology and even if you do so, you have to recognize the emotional and psychological impact of these two words in the Quran and how they really work within the emotions and psychology of some evil prone Muslims.

The term "Kafir" and "Kuffar" is well qualified by derogatory elements attached to it within 3400+ verses in the Quran itself.

Even if you have not heard of it in a negative manner in your personal experience, you need to broaden your perspectives when others are complaining about it.
Actually as a person with experience and knowledge in psychology you should have noticed the very strong "us versus them" i.e. Muslim versus Kuffar element within the Quran itself. However I understand, religions kill the rational mind for some.
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Old 07-13-2015, 12:34 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,601,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
In the Qur'an abrogation did not eliminate the validity of anything.

Jihad, Abrogation in the Quran & the “Verse of the Sword”
In the case of abrogation, one has to think outside the box of Islam to the human nature and psychology of Muhammad.


The chapters in the Quran were recited in 23 years within the later life of Muhammad.

Within the perspective of Messianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianism, Muhammad is just like any of those messiah-wanabe who had some sort of altered states of consciousness. If you study the life of the various messiah-wanable, some started as goody-two-shoes and turned to violent when their claims as rationally expected are rejected. Note Reverend Jim Jones, Koresh and others of the likes.

Such patterns of progression toward violence and evils are repeated everywhere. Hitler was not violent in the early phases so did many other dictators.

Chapter 2 Al-Baqara which contain one of the abrogation rule was supposedly revealed in 622 and thereafter take effect that all verses recited should prevail over the verses before it.
Abrogation does not mean the total abolishment of an act but rather the latest policies should prevail and override others whenever there is any controversy surrounding it.

The emergence of the "Verse of the Sword" does not mean Muslims must carry it all the time. What is meant is such a stance should prevail as a policy from the day it was implemented. This is reflected in reality by the terrible violence that SOME Muslims had committed since 622 AD.

As in the real world, there are prevailing policies and laws everywhere but exceptions are always allowed in special cases.

Therefore in cases where Muslims invoked the later Medinian verses to act harshly on the Kuffar and forced them to convert no one can cannot refer to the impotent 2:256 to override or stop them.
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Old 07-13-2015, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,355,359 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
One can assess "shallowness" and "biasness" from the contents and depths you had addressed.

I mentioned the word "Kafir" and all you did is to educate me on its etymology in this very specific context of Islam State -IS re ISIS.

It is just like you mentioned the term 'black' in the Charleston case, and I proceed to educate you on the original etymology of the word 'black' i.e. color.

When I mentioned the term "Kafir" and "Kuffar," there is no need for you to go back to its etymology and even if you do so, you have to recognize the emotional and psychological impact of these two words in the Quran and how they really work within the emotions and psychology of some evil prone Muslims.

The term "Kafir" and "Kuffar" is well qualified by derogatory elements attached to it within 3400+ verses in the Quran itself.

Even if you have not heard of it in a negative manner in your personal experience, you need to broaden your perspectives when others are complaining about it.
Actually as a person with experience and knowledge in psychology you should have noticed the very strong "us versus them" i.e. Muslim versus Kuffar element within the Quran itself. However I understand, religions kill the rational mind for some.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the case of abrogation, one has to think outside the box of Islam to the human nature and psychology of Muhammad.


The chapters in the Quran were recited in 23 years within the later life of Muhammad.

Within the perspective of Messianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianism, Muhammad is just like any of those messiah-wanabe who had some sort of altered states of consciousness. If you study the life of the various messiah-wanable, some started as goody-two-shoes and turned to violent when their claims as rationally expected are rejected. Note Reverend Jim Jones, Koresh and others of the likes.

Such patterns of progression toward violence and evils are repeated everywhere. Hitler was not violent in the early phases so did many other dictators.

Chapter 2 Al-Baqara which contain one of the abrogation rule was supposedly revealed in 622 and thereafter take effect that all verses recited should prevail over the verses before it.
Abrogation does not mean the total abolishment of an act but rather the latest policies should prevail and override others whenever there is any controversy surrounding it.

The emergence of the "Verse of the Sword" does not mean Muslims must carry it all the time. What is meant is such a stance should prevail as a policy from the day it was implemented. This is reflected in reality by the terrible violence that SOME Muslims had committed since 622 AD.

As in the real world, there are prevailing policies and laws everywhere but exceptions are always allowed in special cases.

Therefore in cases where Muslims invoked the later Medinian verses to act harshly on the Kuffar and forced them to convert no one can cannot refer to the impotent 2:256 to override or stop them.
What needs to be noted is what is the meaning of Kaffir as used in the Qur'an not as it is used in MSA and the modern english translation. The Translation do need to be updated and translate it as "A person who is physically trying to destroy Islam" anti-Islam not non-Muslim or non-believer.

Even to a person with limited Arabic language skills, it is easy to see the current English translations are very poor.
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Old 07-13-2015, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,601,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
What needs to be noted is what is the meaning of Kaffir as used in the Qur'an not as it is used in MSA and the modern english translation. The Translation do need to be updated and translate it as "A person who is physically trying to destroy Islam" anti-Islam not non-Muslim or non-believer.

Even to a person with limited Arabic language skills, it is easy to see the current English translations are very poor.
That is your own personal view.

In general (كافر ; plural كفّار kuffār) refer disbeliever[s] of Islam.
You can get the meaning in context from reading the Quran in totality.

The word [root] first appear in 2:6
2:6 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
Inna allatheena kafaroo sawaon AAalayhim aanthartahum am lam tunthirhum la yu/minoona

2:19 Aw kasayyibin mina alssama-i feehi thulumatun waraAAdun wabarqun yajAAaloona asabiAAahum fee athanihim mina alssawaAAiqi hathara almawti waAllahu muheetun bialkafireena


Of course "A person who is physically trying to destroy Islam" is basically a 'kafir' but the Quran would be more specific with terms like 'enemy' and accompanied by the relevant descriptions.

Note my main point is not so much with the terms used but on the 'referent' as divided into "us versus them."
This division into the in-group [Muslims] and out-group [non-Muslims or whatever name they are called] is the most critical in Islam and is malignant when attributed with other descriptive evil-laden elements.
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Old 07-13-2015, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,355,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is your own personal view.

In general (كافر ; plural كفّار kuffār) refer disbeliever[s] of Islam.
You can get the meaning in context from reading the Quran in totality.

The word [root] first appear in 2:6
2:6 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
Inna allatheena kafaroo sawaon AAalayhim aanthartahum am lam tunthirhum la yu/minoona

2:19 Aw kasayyibin mina alssama-i feehi thulumatun waraAAdun wabarqun yajAAaloona asabiAAahum fee athanihim mina alssawaAAiqi hathara almawti waAllahu muheetun bialkafireena


Of course "A person who is physically trying to destroy Islam" is basically a 'kafir' but the Quran would be more specific with terms like 'enemy' and accompanied by the relevant descriptions.

Note my main point is not so much with the terms used but on the 'referent' as divided into "us versus them."
This division into the in-group [Muslims] and out-group [non-Muslims or whatever name they are called] is the most critical in Islam and is malignant when attributed with other descriptive evil-laden elements.
It can be argued that anytime there is difference in beliefs or procedures it will be perceived as a US vs THEM mentality. But that does not mean One is intent on destroying the other. Actually in some ways it could be said it is an attitude that facilitates progress as it requires each to search for answers and strive to convince the other.

Our dialogues have been very conducive in motivating me to increase my studies of Islam. I have the Arabic text of fiqh-ul Sunnah, a very boring read and in MSA. I have increased my study of MSA and of Islamic Jurisprudence simply to reply to your thought provoking questions. A study I have been putting off because of lack of Motivation. there is not much incentive to be a Muslim when one is the only Muslim in a 100 mile radius. Thank You for providing the incentive.

As for us vs them I have often found myself in that situation, As a Catholic, as a Pentecostal even as an Atheist. Seems I have a tendency to live where I am a minority.

The Qur'anic Arabic is different from all other forms of Arabic, but like all dialects of Hebrew, Aramaic and Phonecian words can not be read as single words. Words are usually written with just the root letters and when read alone can be one of a few or even several hundred words. The meaning will change based upon the words before and after. Current Arabic dictionaries are almost useless in determining the definition of words in the Qur'an as I did find a very good Qur'anic Arabic Dictinary online, to use it requires some knowledge of the Arabic Alphabet. But from the dictionary I found

Kaf-Fa-Ra = to conceal, to cover, to reject, to disbelieve, to be thankless, unthankful, ungrateful, to disown, deny, faithless, black horse, dark night, tiller/farmer.

[[Perhaps it should be noted that its primary meaning is to cover/conceal (hence farmer), with active/conscious intent. From this, is born: to reject/disbelieve because this is a conscious decision made by a person. Please note one can only reject something after hearing/seeing/experiencing it, not before.]]

A link to the dictionary

| Project Root List | Quran Concordance, Grammar and Dictionary in one!
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Old 07-14-2015, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,601,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It can be argued that anytime there is difference in beliefs or procedures it will be perceived as a US vs THEM mentality. But that does not mean One is intent on destroying the other. Actually in some ways it could be said it is an attitude that facilitates progress as it requires each to search for answers and strive to convince the other.
Note I have done extraordinary research into the concept of "us versus them".
I said elsewhere, the primal "us versus them" in the days of our primitive ancestors has critical survival values but merely secondary useful values in our modern society where we do not live as primitive tribes anymore. The current focus is more on co-operation and collaboration between any humans regardless of ethnic or other types.
The emphasis and study of the "us versus them" at present is more on its negative impact, e.g. racism, ethnocentrism, gangs, wars, genocides, violence, and all sort of evils associated with it.

Quote:
Our dialogues have been very conducive in motivating me to increase my studies
of Islam. I have the Arabic text of fiqh-ul Sunnah, a very boring read and in
MSA. I have increased my study of MSA and of Islamic Jurisprudence simply to
reply to your thought provoking questions. A study I have been putting off
because of lack of Motivation. there is not much incentive to be a Muslim when
one is the only Muslim in a 100 mile radius. Thank You for providing the
incentive.
You're welcome and I think that is the purpose of forum discussions, albeit should be as objective as possible.

Quote:
As for us vs them I have often found myself in that situation, As a Catholic,
as a Pentecostal even as an Atheist. Seems I have a tendency to live where I
am a minority.
The "us versus them" primal instinct is embedded deep in the psyche of all humans and they are unavoidable and will express spontaneously as an instinct when triggered by the relevant stimuli.
It is as natural as sweating when in the hot sun. However it manifest in various degrees amongst different people.

As such one should always be mindful whenever we are in situations that can trigger the "us versus them" instinct and do not let it rule our mind, else we could end up with racist riots or religious warfare.

Whilst the main Eastern religions make a serious attempt to modulate this immoral "us versus them" instinct, unfortunately the Abrahamic religions exploited this "us versus them" to the maximum.


Quote:
The Qur'anic Arabic is different from all other forms of Arabic, but like all dialects of Hebrew, Aramaic and Phonecian words can not be read as single words. Words are usually written with just the root letters and when read alone can be one of a few or even several hundred words. The meaning will change based upon the words before and after. Current Arabic dictionaries are almost useless in determining the definition of words in the Qur'an as I did find a very good Qur'anic Arabic Dictinary online, to use it requires some knowledge of the Arabic Alphabet. But from the dictionary I found

Kaf-Fa-Ra = to conceal, to cover, to reject, to disbelieve, to be thankless, unthankful, ungrateful, to disown, deny, faithless, black horse, dark night, tiller/farmer.

[[Perhaps it should be noted that its primary meaning is to cover/conceal (hence farmer), with active/conscious intent. From this, is born: to reject/disbelieve because this is a conscious decision made by a person. Please note one can only reject something after hearing/seeing/experiencing it, not before.]]

A link to the dictionary

| Project Root List | Quran Concordance, Grammar and Dictionary in one!
I am not too concern about the etymology of Kaffir from "Kaf-Fa-Ra = to conceal, to cover, ...etc " to 'disbeliever'. I can deal with that via the Philosophy of Language.

What I am more concern morally is the thousands of negative contexts that has been attributed to "them" the Kuffar, with divine authority as in the Quran, Hadiths, Sira and the whole ethos of Islam. I have now analyzed the full details of it in the Quran.

Note within an eschatological mode, believers are under severe primordial and psychological fears with an existential threat [at least subliminally and could be consciously] that drive them to look for salvation.
Once they have grabbed onto a savior, the savior tell them their salvation is under threat from "them." [e.g. Kuffar] It is only natural believers will want to remove that threat.
Now sanction is given directly and indirectly by God that believers can get rid of "them" by killing, suppressed or others means.
Given a Milgram conditions, what do you think SOME evil prone believers will do? You guess ..
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Old 07-14-2015, 06:53 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,355,359 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I have done extraordinary research into the concept of "us versus them".
I said elsewhere, the primal "us versus them" in the days of our primitive ancestors has critical survival values but merely secondary useful values in our modern society where we do not live as primitive tribes anymore. The current focus is more on co-operation and collaboration between any humans regardless of ethnic or other types.
The emphasis and study of the "us versus them" at present is more on its negative impact, e.g. racism, ethnocentrism, gangs, wars, genocides, violence, and all sort of evils associated with it.

You're welcome and I think that is the purpose of forum discussions, albeit should be as objective as possible.

The "us versus them" primal instinct is embedded deep in the psyche of all humans and they are unavoidable and will express spontaneously as an instinct when triggered by the relevant stimuli.
It is as natural as sweating when in the hot sun. However it manifest in various degrees amongst different people.

As such one should always be mindful whenever we are in situations that can trigger the "us versus them" instinct and do not let it rule our mind, else we could end up with racist riots or religious warfare.

Whilst the main Eastern religions make a serious attempt to modulate this immoral "us versus them" instinct, unfortunately the Abrahamic religions exploited this "us versus them" to the maximum.


I am not too concern about the etymology of Kaffir from "Kaf-Fa-Ra = to conceal, to cover, ...etc " to 'disbeliever'. I can deal with that via the Philosophy of Language.

What I am more concern morally is the thousands of negative contexts that has been attributed to "them" the Kuffar, with divine authority as in the Quran, Hadiths, Sira and the whole ethos of Islam. I have now analyzed the full details of it in the Quran.

Note within an eschatological mode, believers are under severe primordial and psychological fears with an existential threat [at least subliminally and could be consciously] that drive them to look for salvation.
Once they have grabbed onto a savior, the savior tell them their salvation is under threat from "them." [e.g. Kuffar] It is only natural believers will want to remove that threat.
Now sanction is given directly and indirectly by God that believers can get rid of "them" by killing, suppressed or others means.
Given a Milgram conditions, what do you think SOME evil prone believers will do? You guess ..
I do agree that in today's Arabic Kfr (kafir) has become a derogatory term and now is used as an insult towards all non-Muslims. I believe it is a recent change as when I learned Arabic in the 1960s the meaning was not any non-Muslim but specifically a person knowledgeable about Islam and has proclaimed hatred of Muslims. About the only people that could be kafirun (Plural of Kafir) were apostates that had an intnse hatred of Muslims.

My own theory the change in meaning began in America with the "Black Muslim" (Now called NOI) that demanded a seperate nation and considered all white people to be Kafir (Enemies of the Black people) in that era white people were not allowed to join the NOI the NOI do have membership requirements and require joining. One can not simply declare them self NOI and be accepted as such. But at one point they did use Kafir to denote everyone that was not NOI. I believe that is when Kafir began being used as a contemptuous word.
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Old 07-14-2015, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I do agree that in today's Arabic Kfr (kafir) has become a derogatory term and now is used as an insult towards all non-Muslims.
Thanks for that confirmation which is fact any way.

Quote:
I believe it is a recent change as when I learned Arabic in the 1960s the meaning was not any non-Muslim but specifically a person knowledgeable about Islam and has proclaimed hatred of Muslims. About the only people that could be kafirun (Plural of Kafir) were apostates that had an intnse hatred of Muslims.

My own theory the change in meaning began in America with the "Black Muslim" (Now called NOI) that demanded a seperate nation and considered all white people to be Kafir (Enemies of the Black people) in that era white people were not allowed to join the NOI the NOI do have membership requirements and require joining. One can not simply declare them self NOI and be accepted as such. But at one point they did use Kafir to denote everyone that was not NOI. I believe that is when Kafir began being used as a contemptuous word.
That is your personal experience view which is confined to the NOI.

When one read the Quran objectively one will note the term 'kafir' i.e. disbeliever is attributed and condemned with very negative and derogatory labels. Thus this derogatory and contemptuous sense is inherent within the Quran and ethos of Islam from the beginning.

The sense of 'Kafir' within the "us versus sense" is inherent in all the Abrahamic religions. However I believe it is made worse and more intense in the Quran because Muhammad was rejected by the Jews, Christians, pagans and others. Orphans usually has very unstable psychology.
The psychological effect of orphanhood: a study of orphans in Rakai district. - PubMed - NCBI
Most orphans risk powerful cumulative and often negative effects as a result of parents' death, thus becoming vulnerable and predisposed to physical and psychological risks.
One should wonder how much of the psychology of orphanhood could have effected Muhammad. I am sure you are aware psychologically, "rejection" also has very negative impact on a person. This I believe what happened to Hitler when the Jews rejected his art.


The term 'Kafir' in the derogatory sense may not have been pronounced in the US very early on because there were not many Muslims then. The pattern of it voice is correlated with the activeness of Muslims within a nation.

However it is obvious Muhammad used this "us versus them" derogatory "kafir" to whip up the evil animosity and contempt within his followers to kill Jews, Christians and pagans during his time [as proven by his successes] and it has happened since then to now [ISIS, Boko Haram] and in every sphere of human activities where the Muslims are a majority and even in the minority [France, Denmark, etc.]

Fact: From my analysis, the term and sense of 'kafir' [Arabic Kfr] directly and indirectly is present in 55%, 3420++ verses of the total of 6236 verses of the Quran. The other major categories, i.e. Allah, Muslims, are about 30% and Muhammad is only 8% [for you only 4 verses].

Literally and Fact: So the Quran is essentially more about contempt & animosity ['hatred'] against the Kuffar than promoting the religion of Islam.

I hope most Muslims [including yourself] can dig deep into your own human_ness and basic human dignity to realize this inherent evils within the religion [in part] itself, and do something about it as concerned citizens of humanity.
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Old 07-15-2015, 07:53 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,355,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Thanks for that confirmation which is fact any way.

That is your personal experience view which is confined to the NOI.

When one read the Quran objectively one will note the term 'kafir' i.e. disbeliever is attributed and condemned with very negative and derogatory labels. Thus this derogatory and contemptuous sense is inherent within the Quran and ethos of Islam from the beginning.

The sense of 'Kafir' within the "us versus sense" is inherent in all the Abrahamic religions. However I believe it is made worse and more intense in the Quran because Muhammad was rejected by the Jews, Christians, pagans and others. Orphans usually has very unstable psychology.
The psychological effect of orphanhood: a study of orphans in Rakai district. - PubMed - NCBI
Most orphans risk powerful cumulative and often negative effects as a result of parents' death, thus becoming vulnerable and predisposed to physical and psychological risks.
One should wonder how much of the psychology of orphanhood could have effected Muhammad. I am sure you are aware psychologically, "rejection" also has very negative impact on a person. This I believe what happened to Hitler when the Jews rejected his art.


The term 'Kafir' in the derogatory sense may not have been pronounced in the US very early on because there were not many Muslims then. The pattern of it voice is correlated with the activeness of Muslims within a nation.

However it is obvious Muhammad used this "us versus them" derogatory "kafir" to whip up the evil animosity and contempt within his followers to kill Jews, Christians and pagans during his time [as proven by his successes] and it has happened since then to now [ISIS, Boko Haram] and in every sphere of human activities where the Muslims are a majority and even in the minority [France, Denmark, etc.]

Fact: From my analysis, the term and sense of 'kafir' [Arabic Kfr] directly and indirectly is present in 55%, 3420++ verses of the total of 6236 verses of the Quran. The other major categories, i.e. Allah, Muslims, are about 30% and Muhammad is only 8% [for you only 4 verses].

Literally and Fact: So the Quran is essentially more about contempt & animosity ['hatred'] against the Kuffar than promoting the religion of Islam.

I hope most Muslims [including yourself] can dig deep into your own human_ness and basic human dignity to realize this inherent evils within the religion [in part] itself, and do something about it as concerned citizens of humanity.
I believe if you look will will find thant the majority of us are concerned with human dignity and and are aware of our own humanness.I can only speak for myself as I am the only person whose thoughts I know.

I really do understand why many non-Muslims believe Islam promotes violence. I see Islam as the greatest revelation ever for the spreading of love, peace and Human dignity.

I am aware there are violent Muslims and they do use the Qur'an to justify their violence.


I am aware of many more people that find Peace and love of all people through Islam.

I do find many Muslims with views similar to mine here is a link to one of them

Islam - Religion of Peace. Islam stands for peace and justice, and prohibits violence and aggression


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