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Old 07-16-2015, 01:25 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I believe if you look will will find thant the majority of us are concerned with human dignity and and are aware of our own humanness.I can only speak for myself as I am the only person whose thoughts I know.

I really do understand why many non-Muslims believe Islam promotes violence. I see Islam as the greatest revelation ever for the spreading of love, peace and Human dignity.

I am aware there are violent Muslims and they do use the Qur'an to justify their violence.

I am aware of many more people that find Peace and love of all people through Islam.

I do find many Muslims with views similar to mine here is a link to one of them

Islam - Religion of Peace. Islam stands for peace and justice, and prohibits violence and aggression
From what I read of your posts above and elsewhere, I don't think you understand what is meant by the universal basic human dignity within all humans. You are more concern with your own personal salvation as with most individual religionists which in a sense is selfish.

If you are mindful of basic humanity dignity that is universal within humanity you will spontaneously stretch your concern and empathy for every individual human being on Earth. If you do not respect the basic universal human basic dignity [HBD] in others you are in fact insulting yourself which has the same generic HBD.

Quote:
I am aware of many more people that find Peace and love of all people through
Islam.
Islam - Religion of Peace. Islam stands for peace and justice,
and prohibits violence and aggression




I am aware there are violent Muslims and they do use the Qur'an to justify their violence.
Can you see the dilemma here. The same Quran that provide Peace to a majority also facilitate SOME Muslims to justify [provide a true basis] their violence via the inherent malignant verses in the Quran.

The same dilemma is the case of asbestos:
The same asbestos that provide a cheap and useful building material [especially in the third world] for the majority also facilitate the cause of cancer in SOME users via the inherent malignant qualities of the asbestos.

The way to mitigate cancer due to asbestos is to wean off the use of asbestos by replacing the need by alternative benign materials as soon as possible.

Since Islam is in a similar dilemma as with asbestos, humanity need to wean of Islam [not possible now] but within the next 75-100 years and replace it with fool proof benign alternatives.

If you are in a third world country and aware of its potential malignancy but have to use asbestos as it is necessary and unavoidable because of poverty, then you must acknowledge the truth of its malignancy instead of deflecting and opposing such a truth.
One may have to use asbestos and take the risk, however any denial of the truth is against the universal basis human dignity re the condoning the poisoning of humans.

Perhaps you have no better choice but to rely on the religion but you cannot denial the truth of the inherent malignant potential of the religion when adopted by SOME people.



Note the principle as an abstraction from 5:32 .. kill one human being .. as if killed humanity ....
5:32 applied to "whosoever" but in principle this can apply to a religion [with its associated holy books and ethos] as well.
Therefore where a religion-in-part is inherently violence and condone killing innocent people just because they are disbelievers, then that religion-in-part is as if it has killed humanity [re basic human dignity].

Last edited by Continuum; 07-16-2015 at 01:42 AM..
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Old 07-16-2015, 05:19 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From what I read of your posts above and elsewhere, I don't think you understand what is meant by the universal basic human dignity within all humans. You are more concern with your own personal salvation as with most individual religionists which in a sense is selfish.

If you are mindful of basic humanity dignity that is universal within humanity you will spontaneously stretch your concern and empathy for every individual human being on Earth. If you do not respect the basic universal human basic dignity [HBD] in others you are in fact insulting yourself which has the same generic HBD.

Can you see the dilemma here. The same Quran that provide Peace to a majority also facilitate SOME Muslims to justify [provide a true basis] their violence via the inherent malignant verses in the Quran.

The same dilemma is the case of asbestos:
The same asbestos that provide a cheap and useful building material [especially in the third world] for the majority also facilitate the cause of cancer in SOME users via the inherent malignant qualities of the asbestos.

The way to mitigate cancer due to asbestos is to wean off the use of asbestos by replacing the need by alternative benign materials as soon as possible.

Since Islam is in a similar dilemma as with asbestos, humanity need to wean of Islam [not possible now] but within the next 75-100 years and replace it with fool proof benign alternatives.

If you are in a third world country and aware of its potential malignancy but have to use asbestos as it is necessary and unavoidable because of poverty, then you must acknowledge the truth of its malignancy instead of deflecting and opposing such a truth.
One may have to use asbestos and take the risk, however any denial of the truth is against the universal basis human dignity re the condoning the poisoning of humans.

Perhaps you have no better choice but to rely on the religion but you cannot denial the truth of the inherent malignant potential of the religion when adopted by SOME people.



Note the principle as an abstraction from 5:32 .. kill one human being .. as if killed humanity ....
5:32 applied to "whosoever" but in principle this can apply to a religion [with its associated holy books and ethos] as well.
Therefore where a religion-in-part is inherently violence and condone killing innocent people just because they are disbelievers, then that religion-in-part is as if it has killed humanity [re basic human dignity].
A pretty good hypothesis but one thing you are assuming is that I have a desire for salvation. I have no real desire for eternal salvation. That is of no concern to me.

I doubt I would stop following Islam even if I was positive there is no after-life. While I do believe a Supreme creator exists I do have doubts about eternal life after death.

I do not practice Islam in the anticipation of any rewards or fear of any eternal punishment. In the regards to iife after death, I do not give it a thought. I worship Allaah(swt) simply because I am convinced He exists and I do thank him for the time I had in this domain. It has been an enjoyable ride, but at my age I have no objection knowing the ferris wheel will one day stop.

I believe the measure of how well I serve Allaah(swt) will be measured and weighed in terms of how well I have benefited mankind and all living creatures.

I find that by serving Allaah(swt) I am doing my part to serve all of creation.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 07-16-2015 at 05:38 PM..
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Old 07-17-2015, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A pretty good hypothesis but one thing you are assuming is that I have a desire for salvation. I have no real desire for eternal salvation. That is of no concern to me.

I doubt I would stop following Islam even if I was positive there is no after-life. While I do believe a Supreme creator exists I do have doubts about eternal life after death.

I do not practice Islam in the anticipation of any rewards or fear of any eternal punishment. In the regards to iife after death, I do not give it a thought. I worship Allaah(swt) simply because I am convinced He exists and I do thank him for the time I had in this domain. It has been an enjoyable ride, but at my age I have no objection knowing the ferris wheel will one day stop.

I believe the measure of how well I serve Allaah(swt) will be measured and weighed in terms of how well I have benefited mankind and all living creatures.

I find that by serving Allaah(swt) I am doing my part to serve all of creation.
As long as you are a Muslim as defined by the Quran, you are driven by its eschatological and soteriological purpose either subliminally or consciously, i.e. salvation.

Therefore you may explicitly deny it but subliminally your culminating ethos within is in alignment with the general ethos of Islam. This is why you believe in God via Islam specifically and not Hinduism and other theistic religions or deism, pantheism. Therefore eternal life and success in the afterlife is part of the package within your involvement with Islam albeit subliminal and unconscious in your specific case. The majority Muslims will opt with a explicit package and covenant with Allah.

The general ethos of Islam is reflected in Chapter 1 -Al-Fatiha
Chapter 1 Al-Fatiha is the complete micro-model that represent Islam.
The central pivot that drive Islam the religion as sustain by Muslims is 1:4 [Judgment Day] which represent the eschatological and soteriological elements of the Quran. Note this is 32% in term of verses re the Quran. Read to verify this objectively.

The main eschatological drive from within Muslim is critically and necessarily supported by 1:1-3, 5. and this is 23% of the Quran.

The straight path is communicated via the messenger which is only 8% of the Quran. 1:6.

What is unfortunate with Islam as in the Quran is, its goodness and success of the afterlife is conditioned heavily by the explicit expected failures of and contempt for the Kuffar, i.e. the evil-laden verses. This is 55% [up to 64% from other perspectives] of the Quran and therefrom Islam. This can be easily verified objectively.

Thus you may deny the desire for salvation explicitly but it is nevertheless working within you as a subliminal and subconscious instinct, and that can justified by the existent of the relevant neurons that support such subliminal impulses.

As re psychology, there are many people who deny what they are doing [mostly evil and some good] and do not understand their own actions [good and evil] from their subconscious mind. It would appear you too has not been able to understand such refine subliminal eschatological and soteriological impulses at work that culminated in you being specifically a Muslim and not as a believer of other religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
...you are assuming is that I have a desire for salvation.
I have no real desire for eternal salvation. That is of no concern to me.
I doubt I would stop following Islam even if I was positive there is no after-life. While I do believe a Supreme creator exists I do have doubts about eternal life after death.

I worship Allaah(swt) simply because I am convinced He exists and I do thank him for the time I had in this domain.
It would appear you are defying Allah and not going along with what God asserted in the Quran - presumably you must have read it many times and understand most of it.

2:28 How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return.

I have noted there are 121 verses that directly imply salvation and resurrection and many others that indirectly support it.

So to push aside salvation and eternal life would be very odd for any Muslim.

Last edited by Continuum; 07-18-2015 at 12:00 AM..
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Old 07-18-2015, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
---SNIP---

It would appear you are defying Allah and not going along with what God asserted in the Quran - presumably you must have read it many times and understand most of it.

2:28 How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return.

I have noted there are 121 verses that directly imply salvation and resurrection and many others that indirectly support it.

So to push aside salvation and eternal life would be very odd for any Muslim.
Which makes me think you assume there are basic dogmatic belief's all Muslims must believe.


While there are 6 beliefs most of us have in common. there is no requirement for us to believe them, however it does seem it would be pointless to be Muslim if one does not believe in them.


Belief in Allah as the one and only God
Belief in angels
Belief in the holy books
Belief in the Prophets...
Belief in the Day of Judgement...
Belief that Allaah(saws) is all knowing and knows all things that will happen

While it probably would be pointless to be a Muslim and not believe these basic beliefs, there is no dogma or doctrine requiring belief in them.

While the Qur'an does reference eternal life at least 121 times. That does not concern me as it is not a driving motivation or need for me. I have no need or overwhelming desire for eternal salvation.
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Old 07-18-2015, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Which makes me think you assume there are basic dogmatic belief's all Muslims must believe.

While there are 6 beliefs most of us have in common. there is no requirement for us to believe them, however it does seem it would be pointless to be Muslim if one does not believe in them.

Belief in Allah as the one and only God
Belief in angels
Belief in the holy books
Belief in the Prophets...
Belief in the Day of Judgement...
Belief that Allaah(saws) is all knowing and knows all things that will happen

While it probably would be pointless to be a Muslim and not believe these basic beliefs, there is no dogma or doctrine requiring belief in them.
You need not be dogmatic nor you have to believe all of the above. But believing in the Last Day and subsequent resurrection is one of the imperative condition to qualify one as a Muslim.
4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His messenger and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto His messenger, and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime. Whoso disbelieveth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day, he verily hath wandered far astray.
The elements of salvation within eschatology and soteriology constitute 32% of the Quran and this is its main driving force. 'Last Day' is mentioned 64 times directly and 600++ times indirectly.


Quote:
While the Qur'an does reference eternal life at least 121 times. That does not concern me as it is not a driving motivation or need for me. I have no need or overwhelming desire for eternal salvation.
It may not be a conscious life mission for you but it is definitely a subliminal and subconscious impulse driving your inclinations toward the Quran and Islam, otherwise you would be a Buddhist [or the likes] or a non-theist or Muslim-atheist.
A salvation-less Muslim is an oxymoron and contradiction.

It is not only that one must believe in the Last Day, one must 'long for death' so that one can be resurrected again. Note {mine}
2:94 Say (unto them {the Jews}): If the abode of the Hereafter in the providence of Allah is indeed for you alone and not for others of mankind (as ye pretend), then long for death (for ye must long for death) if ye are truthful.
2:95 But they {the Jews} will never long for it {death}, because of that which their own hands have sent before them. Allah is aware of evil doers.
This is one verse that is used to motivate and inspired vulnerable Jihadists to martyrdom.
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Old 07-19-2015, 06:25 AM
 
Location: quiet place
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Muslimsa are 1.5 billions , there are approx 30,000 terrorists while the rest are civilised and tolerat more than westerners. But we still prejudiced and pressed as terrorist !
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Old 07-19-2015, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned View Post
Muslims are 1.5 billions , there are approx 30,000 terrorists while the rest are civilised and tolerat more than westerners. But we still prejudiced and pressed as terrorist !
YOU ARE WRONG!!

There is a natural tendency for most to generalize but most people would not claim that ALL Muslims are as bad or have prejudiced against Muslims as human beings.
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, [and evil people to commit more evil with God's sanction] that takes religion.” ― Steven Weinberg [mine]
I have always stated the fact, the majority of Muslims like any other ordinary people are good.

The critical issue is not with Muslims as human beings and people.
The problem is the religion-in-part and its God sanctioned immutable evil ideology.

As a CONTROL, at present it is only ONE religion amongst ALL main religions that is causing so much terrible evil around the world. Upon detailed investigations and research one can trace the root causes to the evil-laden verses in the immutable holy texts that catalyze and inspired SOME clergy and SOME ordinary Muslims to commit evil.

But.. but .. you may claim Buddhists also commit violence in Myanmmar, Sri Lanka, etc. The point is these violence are not inspired by religious texts in the holy book but more by ethnic tensions and clashes by evil-people who happened to be Buddhists. One do not hear of these Buddhists quoting texts from Buddhist texts when they commit violence.

YOU ARE WRONG!! The majority do not blame Muslims for the evil by a critical few. Perhaps you are guilty about it but that is not the fact.

Note even Wilder the notorious anti-Islamist said,
' I don't hate Muslims. I hate Islam,' says Holland's rising political star
Geert Wilders, the popular MP whose film on Islam has fuelled the debate on race in Holland, wants an end to mosque building and Muslim immigration.
'I don't hate Muslims. I hate Islam,' says Holland's rising political star | World news | The Guardian



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Old 07-21-2015, 06:54 PM
 
Location: quiet place
271 posts, read 214,345 times
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Islam came to treat all human traits or tendency to err, let us go to check some reports or numbers of crimes in both Muslim community and non-Muslim community. Muslims are acting as they could as Islam orders and there is no way to compare between Western Culture and Islamic culture when it comes to preserve others' rights in peaceful life.
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Old 07-21-2015, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned View Post
Islam came to treat all human traits or tendency to err, let us go to check some reports or numbers of crimes in both Muslim community and non-Muslim community. Muslims are acting as they could as Islam orders and there is no way to compare between Western Culture and Islamic culture when it comes to preserve others' rights in peaceful life.
I understand there are necessary variations and differences in the issue of 'rights' across different cultures.

However, we cannot compromise basic human dignity and basic human rights that is common to all humans regardless of Western or Islamic culture.

For example no killing is permissible unless it is justified.
From the perspective of religion, the killing of non-Muslims & others by SOME Muslims as catalyzed by a large chunk of negative [some evil] verses from their holy religious books CANNOT be 'right' nor justified regardless of whatever. Such negative verses should never be included in any religious context.
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Old 07-22-2015, 11:18 AM
 
Location: quiet place
271 posts, read 214,345 times
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I can't talk about cosomitics but I can about Quran , if you find a single verse that make killing permissible, pls , put it here ? Will find verses that talked about infidels but when we study Quran we should learn some basics like ( general & special ) purposes. All the verses that allow killing are special in time . They were applicable before 1400 years. Not
Now. Before the death of Prophet Mohammad , Islam had completed and to be Muslim or not is optional...if I have the chance I will explaine more about Islamic battles in North of Africa and Asia. To let you know some of the reasons for tose military efforts.

Back soon in sha Allah
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