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Old 07-10-2015, 06:07 AM
 
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Is the name Islamic state a problem. I was taught that what someone says is their name you should abid with, but is this a problem for other people of the Islamic faith who do not follow the beliefs of the the terror group?

Last edited by CityBear; 07-10-2015 at 06:17 AM..
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Old 07-10-2015, 08:21 AM
 
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We have to start with reality. If you have read the Quran and hadiths you will know that they explicitly promote terrorism (and other evils). In fact, the terrorists are following what 'Allah' demands and the example Muhammed set.

So the question (to me) becomes, 'can decent people choose to follow an ideology that promotes terrorism (and other evils), and if so, how?' For example, were there decent Nazis that followed Hitler?

When I use the term 'decent people" I mean people who are against initiation of force against others...including killing (except self-defense), rape, terrorism, torture, battery, slavery, pedophilia, theft, fraud, assault.
I have been studying Islam and asking that question for years now.

An ideology (philosophy) is the roadmap to your life. It defines your fundamental way of thinking and making choices. It represents your morality, your view of reality, your method of thinking, your politics. Can someone be against terrorism, slavery, rape, killing those who disagree .... yet choose to follow an ideology that promotes these things?
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Old 07-10-2015, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityBear View Post
Is the name Islamic state a problem. I was taught that what someone says is their name you should abid with, but is this a problem for other people of the Islamic faith who do not follow the beliefs of the the terror group?
Yes, it is a problem for us.

For there to be an Islamic state it must be agreed upon by 100% of the Ulemah (all of the world's Muslims) and under the guidence of a God(swt) ordained caliph. The self proclaimed IS does not meet this criteria and has been denounced by most of the world's Muslims..
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Old 07-10-2015, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
We have to start with reality. If you have read the Quran and hadiths you will know that they explicitly promote terrorism (and other evils). In fact, the terrorists are following what 'Allah' demands and the example Muhammed set.

So the question (to me) becomes, 'can decent people choose to follow an ideology that promotes terrorism (and other evils), and if so, how?' For example, were there decent Nazis that followed Hitler?

When I use the term 'decent people" I mean people who are against initiation of force against others...including killing (except self-defense), rape, terrorism, torture, battery, slavery, pedophilia, theft, fraud, assault.
I have been studying Islam and asking that question for years now.

An ideology (philosophy) is the roadmap to your life. It defines your fundamental way of thinking and making choices. It represents your morality, your view of reality, your method of thinking, your politics. Can someone be against terrorism, slavery, rape, killing those who disagree .... yet choose to follow an ideology that promotes these things?
I do not know what sources you have been using. I also have studied Islam for many years at leas 20 years as a Christia, then also about 20 years as an Atheist and for the past q10 years as a Muslim. I have lived in Islamic Nations as a Christian.

I find Islam to be the most peaceful ideology I have ever studied


What other religion specifically says

Surah 109

109:1 (Picktall) Say: O disbelievers!

109:2 (Picktall) I worship not that which ye worship;

109:3 (Picktall) Nor worship ye that which I worship.

109:4 (Picktall) And I shall not worship that which ye worship.

109:5 (Picktall) Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

109:6 (Picktall) Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

Surah 67
67:1 (Picktall) Blessed is He in Whose hand is the Sovereignty, and He is Able to do all things.

67:2 (Picktall) Who hath created life and death that He may try you, which of you is best in conduct; and He is the Mighty, Forgiving,

67:3 (Picktall) Who hath created seven heavens in harmony. Thou (Muhammad) canst see no fault in the Beneficent One's creation; then look again: Canst thou see any rifts?

67:4 (Picktall) Then look again and yet again, thy sight will return unto thee weakened and made dim.

67:5 (Picktall) And verily We have beatified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.

67:6 (Picktall) And for those who disbelieve in their Lord there is the doom of hell, a hapless journey's end!

67:7 (Picktall) When they are flung therein they hear its roaring as it boileth up,

67:8 (Picktall) As it would burst with rage. Whenever a (fresh) host flung therein the wardens thereof ask them: Came there unto you no warner?

67:9 (Picktall) They say: Yea, verily, a warner came unto us; but we denied and said: Allah hath naught revealed; ye are in naught but a great error.

67:10 (Picktall) And they say: Had we been wont to listen or have sense, we had not been among the dwellers in the flames.

67:11 (Picktall) So they acknowledge their sins; but far removed (from mercy) are the dwellers in the flames.

67:12 (Picktall) Lo! those who fear their Lord in secret, theirs will be forgiveness and a great reward.

67:13 (Picktall) And keep your opinion secret or proclaim it, lo! He is Knower of all that is in the breasts (of men).

67:14 (Picktall) Should He not know what He created? And He is the Subtile, the Aware.

67:15 (Picktall) He it is Who hath made the earth subservient unto you, so walk in the paths thereof and eat of His providence. And unto Him will be the resurrection (of the dead).

67:16 (Picktall) Have ye taken security from Him Who is in the heaven that He will not cause the earth to swallow you when lo! it is convulsed?

67:17 (Picktall) Or have ye taken security from Him Who is in the heaven that He will not let loose on you a hurricane? But ye shall know the manner of My warning.

67:18 (Picktall) And verily those before them denied, then (see) the manner of My wrath (with them)!

67:19 (Picktall) Have they not seen the birds above them spreading out their wings and closing them? Naught upholdeth them save the Beneficent. Lo! He is Seer of all things.

67:20 (Picktall) Or who is he that will be an army unto you to help you instead of the Beneficent? The disbelievers are in naught but illusion.

67:21 (Picktall) Or who is he that will provide for you if He should withhold His providence? Nay, but they are set in pride and frowardness.

67:22 (Picktall) Is he who goeth groping on his face more rightly guided, or he who walketh upright on a beaten road?

67:23 (Picktall) Say (unto them, O Muhammad): He it is Who gave you being, and hath assigned unto you ears and eyes and hearts. Small thanks give ye!

67:24 (Picktall) Say, He it is Who multiplieth you in the earth, and unto Whom ye will be gathered.

67:25 (Picktall) And they say: When (will) this promise (be fulfilled), if ye are truthful?

67:26 (Picktall) Say: The knowledge is with Allah only, and I am but a plain warner;

67:27 (Picktall) But when they see it nigh, the faces of those who disbelieve will be awry, and it will be said (unto them): This is that for which ye used to call.

67:28 (Picktall) Say (O Muhammad): Have ye thought: Whether Allah causeth me (Muhammad) and those with me to perish or hath mercy on us, still, who will protect the disbelievers from a painful doom?

67:29 (Picktall) Say: He is the Beneficent. In Him we believe and in Him we put our trust. And ye will soon know who it is that is in error manifest.

67:30 (Picktall) Say: Have ye thought: If (all) your water were to disappear into the earth, who then could bring you gushing water?
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Old 07-10-2015, 10:47 PM
 
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Context:
"This surah was revealed in Mecca before Prophet Muhammad became a military leader. Islamic historian al-Zuhri writes that during this period “the unbelievers of the Quraysh did not oppose what he [Muhammad] said. If he passed the place where they sat together, they pointed to him and said: 'This young man of the tribe of Abd al-Muttalib proclaims a message from heaven!'” However, “this they continued to do until Allah began to attack their gods…, and until He proclaimed that their fathers who died in unbelief were lost [to hellfire]. Then they began to hate the Prophet and show their enmity to him.”[1]

Muslim chronicler al-Baihaqi further records (in The Signs of Prophethood) Muhammad’s disciple Amru ibn al-Aas’ testimony of Quraysh leaders’ discussion concerning Muhammad's verbal attacks on them and their religious beliefs: “Never have we had to tolerate from anyone what we have had to tolerate from this man. He slanders our fathers, criticizes our religions and divides our people, and blasphemes our gods. Such grievous things have we tolerated from this man…” Muhammad, who was nearby and heard this conversation, responded with, “Men of Quraysh! I will surely repay you for this with interest.”[2] The rest of the details are covered by the tafsir literature:...."

To You Your Religion and To Me Mine (Qur'an 109:1-6) - WikiIslam
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Old 07-10-2015, 10:59 PM
 
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The more peaceful verses in Islam were abrogated, wiped out, by later verses like these:
(Translation is from the Noble Quran)

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." This verse promotes violence as be virtuous and contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home). Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward " This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence and puts an end to
the myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle.

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Not does not mean 'on'. This explicitly puts to rest the claim that all violence was to occur only on the 'last day'.

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."

Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense.

Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam.

Quran (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"

Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..."

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."

Quran (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" The verse explicitly refers to "battle array" meaning that it is speaking of physical conflict. This is followed by (61:9): "He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist."

Quran (61:10-12) - "O You who believe! Shall I guide you to a commerce that will save you from a painful torment. That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad ), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know! (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwelling in Gardens of 'Adn - Eternity ['Adn (Edn) Paradise], that is indeed the great success."

Quran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

There is mention of slaughtering Jews on the last day:

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
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Old 07-10-2015, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I find Islam to be the most peaceful ideology I have ever studied
Peaceful
What you have below are verses that contain very antagonistic elements direct at the Kuffar [me personally and other non-Muslims] and you are so blind to it. Note attentive blindness, confirmation bias, cognitive bias, that blinded you from seeing the whole picture but rather only pink roses because you wore pink-tinted-glasses.


Quote:
What other religion specifically says

Surah 109 -Al-Kafirun
109:1 (Picktall) Say: O disbelievers [Kuffar]!
109:2 (Picktall) I worship not that which ye [Kuffar] worship;
109:3 (Picktall) Nor worship ye [Kuffar] that which I worship.
109:4 (Picktall) And I shall not worship that which ye [Kuffar] worship.
109:5 (Picktall) Nor will ye [Kuffar] worship that which I worship.
109:6 (Picktall) Unto you your [Kuffar] religion, and unto me my religion.
From the whole context of the Quran 114 chapters, the tone of the term 'kafir' and 'kuffar' ended with a very derogatory sense of enmity against non-believers.

The story behind this surah 109 was: Quraish chiefs offered Muhammad a compromise to accept their pagan worship, etc. but M declined and came out with this surah.
The few statements themselves has no weights against the enmity [near hate] the Quran has build up against the kuffar from the 3400++ evil laden verses.

So with the culminated enmity for the Kuffar, how can the above represent peacefulness from the average Muslims. Some good Muslims may not be affected by the negative verses but the fact they are in the Quran per se you cannot ignore the reality of its effects on the majority of Muslims and the 20% of evil prone Muslims. The 'proof of the pudding .. ' is the real terrible evil and violent act committed by SOME Muslims.

Quote:

Surah 67
67:5 (Picktall) And verily We have beatified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them [Kuffar] We have prepared the doom of flame.

67:6 (Picktall) And for those who disbelieve [Kuffar][] in their Lord there is the doom of hell, a hapless journey's end!

67:7 (Picktall) When they [Kuffar] are flung therein they [Kuffar] hear its roaring as it boileth up,

67:8 (Picktall) As it would burst with rage. Whenever a (fresh) host flung therein the wardens thereof ask them [Kuffar]: Came there unto you no warner?

67:9 (Picktall) They [Kuffar] say: Yea, verily, a warner came unto us; but we denied and said: Allah hath naught revealed; ye are in naught but a great error.

67:10 (Picktall) And they [Kuffar] say: Had we been wont to listen or have sense, we had not been among the dwellers in the flames.

67:11 (Picktall) So they [Kuffar] acknowledge their sins; but far removed (from mercy) are the dwellers [Kuffar] in the flames.

67:17 (Picktall) Or have ye taken security from Him Who is in the heaven that He will not let loose on you a hurricane? But ye [Kuffar] shall know the manner of My warning.

67:18 (Picktall) And verily those [Kuffar] before them denied, then (see) the manner of My wrath (with them)!

67:19 (Picktall) Have they [Kuffar] not seen the birds above them spreading out their wings and closing them? Naught upholdeth them [Kuffar] save the Beneficent. Lo! He is Seer of all things.

67:20 (Picktall) Or who is he that will be an army unto you to help you instead of the Beneficent? The disbelievers [Kuffar] are in naught but illusion.

67:21 (Picktall) Or who is he [Kafir] that will provide for you if He should withhold His providence? Nay, but they are set in pride and frowardness.

67:22 (Picktall) Is he [Kaffir] who goeth groping on his face more rightly guided, or he who walketh upright on a beaten road?

67:23 (Picktall) Say (unto them [incl Kuffar], O Muhammad): He it is Who gave you being, and hath assigned unto you ears and eyes and hearts. Small thanks give ye [Kuffar]!

67:24 (Picktall) Say, He it is Who multiplieth you [ incl Kuffar] in the earth, and unto Whom ye will be gathered.

67:25 (Picktall) And they [Kuffar] say: When (will) this promise (be fulfilled), if ye are truthful?

67:27 (Picktall) But when they see it nigh, the faces of those who disbelieve [Kuffar] will be awry, and it will be said (unto them): This is that for which ye used to call.

67:28 (Picktall) Say (O Muhammad): Have ye thought: Whether Allah causeth me (Muhammad) and those with me to perish or hath mercy on us, still, who will protect the disbelievers [Kuffar] from a painful doom?

67:29 (Picktall) Say: He is the Beneficent. In Him we believe and in Him we put our trust. And ye will soon know who [Kuffar] it is that is in error manifest.
How can you ever claim the above chapter 67 is peaceful?
19 out of the 30 verses, i.e. 66% is antagonistic against the non-Muslims [me and others] and degraded as "kuffar."

First the chapter as with the whole of the Quran divided humanity into US-Muslims versus THEM-Kuffar.
This basis segregation into in-group and out-group is bad enough but the chapter proceed to threaten the Muslims themselves with hell if they disbelieved then at the same time used all sort of put-downs, threats, derogatory remarks, anger, wrath & hatred from Allah and condemnations of the Kuffar, i.e. me literally and other non-Muslims.

Obviously me and other non-Muslims degraded as "Kuffar' and condemned in the worst terms imaginable should feel very offended by these vile verses.
I wonder how the apologists could be so stupid to accept such abominable condemnations against them by the Quran.

How can you ever deny such terrible acts from the Quran?

Peaceful?
Can you explain your claim again that your religion is peaceful? and don't deflect to other religions.

Last edited by Continuum; 07-10-2015 at 11:32 PM..
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Old 07-11-2015, 12:12 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Peaceful
What you have below are verses that contain very antagonistic elements direct at the Kuffar [me personally and other non-Muslims] and you are so blind to it. Note attentive blindness, confirmation bias, cognitive bias, that blinded you from seeing the whole picture but rather only pink roses because you wore pink-tinted-glasses.



From the whole context of the Quran 114 chapters, the tone of the term 'kafir' and 'kuffar' ended with a very derogatory sense of enmity against non-believers.

The story behind this surah 109 was: Quraish chiefs offered Muhammad a compromise to accept their pagan worship, etc. but M declined and came out with this surah.
The few statements themselves has no weights against the enmity [near hate] the Quran has build up against the kuffar from the 3400++ evil laden verses.

So with the culminated enmity for the Kuffar, how can the above represent peacefulness from the average Muslims. Some good Muslims may not be affected by the negative verses but the fact they are in the Quran per se you cannot ignore the reality of its effects on the majority of Muslims and the 20% of evil prone Muslims. The 'proof of the pudding .. ' is the real terrible evil and violent act committed by SOME Muslims.

How can you ever claim the above chapter 67 is peaceful?
19 out of the 30 verses, i.e. 66% is antagonistic against the non-Muslims [me and others] and degraded as "kuffar."

First the chapter as with the whole of the Quran divided humanity into US-Muslims versus THEM-Kuffar.
This basis segregation into in-group and out-group is bad enough but the chapter proceed to threaten the Muslims themselves with hell if they disbelieved then at the same time used all sort of put-downs, threats, derogatory remarks, anger, wrath & hatred from Allah and condemnations of the Kuffar, i.e. me literally and other non-Muslims.

Obviously me and other non-Muslims degraded as "Kuffar' and condemned in the worst terms imaginable should feel very offended by these vile verses.
I wonder how the apologists could be so stupid to accept such abominable condemnations against them by the Quran.

How can you ever deny such terrible acts from the Quran?

Peaceful?
Can you explain your claim again that your religion is peaceful? and don't deflect to other religions.
Up until recent times, probably as recent as within my lifetime kuffar did not mean non-Muslim. It more closely meant anti-Muslim.

Now let us deliberate over these three meaning of ‘Kufr’:
Concealment

Concealment is associated with possession and endowment. One who possesses nothing precious has no need to hide. The Word of God, the Knowledge given by Him is a most valuable asset a man may possess. All along in the history of mankind, men of knowledge have been concealing from masses the Knowledge they possess so as to exploit them in the name of religion. Those who forbade the Knowledge of Vedas to the Shudras were indeed ‘Kafir’. Those who conceal from masses that Vedas forbid idol worship, have committed the crime of concealment. Not a single verse of the four Vedas speaks of the next life of a person in the mould of any animal or vegetation. Instead, they explain in detail the descriptions of eternal paradise and hell Hereafter. There are detailed prophecies of Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) in Vedas. Those who conceal these facts from the people having faith in Vedas are Kafir (in Arabic). Jesus Christ never once in his gospel, claimed to be ‘The Only Begotten Son of God’. On the contrary, to emphasise his human origin he always referred to himself as ‘son of man’. Those who hide this truth are Kafir in the eyes of Qur’an, which is in Arabic. This is an undisputable fact that prior to Qur’an, all the previous scriptures revealed by God could not remain safe from human interpolation. Those who made changes in the Word of God were Kafir. It is also a verifiable truth that among all scriptures, claiming to be Word of God, only Qur’an is unaltered to the last word and letter. This is the biggest endowment of God to the mankind that Muslims claim to possess. This wealth was sent for the whole of mankind. If the possessors of this precious asset do not distribute it among mankind, for whom it was revealed, they would be Kafir. In the past, the men of knowledge stopped others from knowing the word of God, but at present, those who possess the most precious wealth, the way to ‘Mukti’ and salvation, are in general becoming the greatest criminals of concealment if they do not distribute the ‘Gyan’ (knowledge) of salvation. A large number of Muslims I dare say, are practically becoming the greatest Kafirs of today as far as this meaning of the word ‘Kuf’r’ goes. Mr. Chatterji can call them Kafirs who keep the knowledge of unadulterated Word of God to themselves.
Ungratefulness

Gratitude and ingratitude are also associated with prize, endowment and bestowment. Whoever has been bestowed by someone has an obligation to be grateful to his benefactor. If those calling themselves Muslims think that they have been bestowed with the safest and unaltered Word of God by their Lord, it is they who can be grateful or ungrateful. If their lives do not bear witness to the teachings of Islam and Qur’an, if they are becoming unwanted instead of blessing for the society and if their conduct is driving Non-Muslims to hate Islam and Qur’an then they are becoming ungrateful or Kafir in Arabic. In principle he cannot be called ungrateful who has not been gifted anything worth while.
Denial and Rejection

Denial or rejection is essentially linked to an order or request or an offer. You cannot deny or reject anything unless an offer has been made to you or you have been ordered or requested something. If I ask someone to bring me a glass of water and he rejects my request I can say that he has rejected my request or denied it. I have no right to claim he has denied if I did not ask or requested him in the first place. Whether the Non-Muslims are technically Kafir or not in the eyes of Islam, those who have not asked them to accept it after explaining and presenting it in a decent and convincing manner, have no moral right in letter and spirit to call them Kafir.

The decree or Fatwa is passed on apparent admission but Allah knows all that is apparent and hidden as well. On two counts above it is for every Muslims to introspect whether he is being a Kafir or not. Only the third meaning of the word may brand a non-Muslim as Kafir but only after he has been offered Islam in a convincing and acceptable manner.

Kafir in itself is not an abuse. It has been used in Qur’an for faithful and devout Muslims also. “There is no compulsion in religion. Verily the right path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever becomes Kafir of the false deities and believes in Allah, has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break...” (2:256)

From the above verse it must be clear that the word Kafir itself is not abusive. Kafir is a subject that needs an object. The rejecter of - what? Muslims are the Kafirs of Hinduism (in its present form). Hindus are the Kafirs of Islam (provided they have rejected it after understanding it). In Islamic terminology the word, if spoken without an object, is used for those who reject the Islamic Faith. That is what Dr. Zakir Naik wrote in brief but I agree that his subsequent comment that offended Mr. Chatterji was uncalled for.
Islamic Voice
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Old 07-11-2015, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Up until recent times, probably as recent as within my lifetime kuffar did not mean non-Muslim. It more closely meant anti-Muslim.
Again I need to critique your shallow thinking and views.

My main point is the Quran itself right from the beginning as driven by the psychology of Muhammad invoked the "us versus them" primal instincts negatively and in an evil manner.
Once a group or leader has isolated the "them" in context and narratives, then the label [Kuffar, Kafir, non-Muslim, anti-Muslims] is not very critical. What is most damaging is the psychological and emotional contents that is affixed in the minds of the in-groups against those of the out-groups.
After Muhammad was rejected by the Quresh, the Jews and then the Christian, Muhammad started to push them into the "them" group and paint them with the worst labels in the most derogatory, abominable and dehumanizing way.

I am not sure about what is the impact of the term 'Kuffar' and 'Kafir' has on the Muslims when Muhammad was in Medina, but I am sure even the sight of the Quresh, Jews and Christians would have instill great animosity in the Muslims to the extent of wanting to eliminate, kill or subjugate the non-Muslims which they in fact did.

There are no research done on the past, but it is obvious the words 'Kuffar' and 'Kafir' at present would spontaneously trigger great animosity within those Muslims who have read the Quran, Hadiths, Sira or brainwashed by the clergy. What is critical is the impact of the words 'Kuffar' 'Kafir' 'infidels' has on many Muslims in the present not the past. The reality of danger and threat is these words exist literally, as conceptualized and in context in very high significant percentages in the holy books of Islam, i.e. Quran, Hadiths, Sira an others.
I am sure you understand how constant repetitions of words with negative and evil connotations into the brain of the vulnerables is very dangerous and damaging.


Quote:
Kafir in itself is not an abuse. It has been used in Qur’an for faithful and devout Muslims also. “There is no compulsion in religion. Verily the right path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever becomes Kafir of the false deities and believes in Allah, has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break...” (2:256)

From the above verse it must be clear that the word Kafir itself is not abusive. Kafir is a subject that needs an object. The rejecter of - what? Muslims are the Kafirs of Hinduism (in its present form). Hindus are the Kafirs of Islam (provided they have rejected it after understanding it). In Islamic terminology the word, if spoken without an object, is used for those who reject the Islamic Faith. That is what Dr. Zakir Naik wrote in brief but I agree that his subsequent comment that offended Mr. Chatterji was uncalled for.
Islamic Voice
As I explained above, the words itself are not critical but rather the psychological, emotional and other negative contexts that had been conceptualized and attached to them by the in-group [US] onto the out-group [them].

Note the word 'gay' itself [joy, happy, homosexual] is not abusive.
However if a person is recognized and pointed to as 'gay' in a square in the middle of Afghanistan or some Muslims majority nations, he is likely to be mobbed, lynched, and killed by a crazy mob.

It is likely for anyone identified as 'Kuffar' 'Kafir' 'infidels' in such places to be threatened with violence or even killed.
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Old 07-12-2015, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Again I need to critique your shallow thinking and views.

My main point is the Quran itself right from the beginning as driven by the psychology of Muhammad invoked the "us versus them" primal instincts negatively and in an evil manner.
Once a group or leader has isolated the "them" in context and narratives, then the label [Kuffar, Kafir, non-Muslim, anti-Muslims] is not very critical. What is most damaging is the psychological and emotional contents that is affixed in the minds of the in-groups against those of the out-groups.
After Muhammad was rejected by the Quresh, the Jews and then the Christian, Muhammad started to push them into the "them" group and paint them with the worst labels in the most derogatory, abominable and dehumanizing way.

I am not sure about what is the impact of the term 'Kuffar' and 'Kafir' has on the Muslims when Muhammad was in Medina, but I am sure even the sight of the Quresh, Jews and Christians would have instill great animosity in the Muslims to the extent of wanting to eliminate, kill or subjugate the non-Muslims which they in fact did.

There are no research done on the past, but it is obvious the words 'Kuffar' and 'Kafir' at present would spontaneously trigger great animosity within those Muslims who have read the Quran, Hadiths, Sira or brainwashed by the clergy. What is critical is the impact of the words 'Kuffar' 'Kafir' 'infidels' has on many Muslims in the present not the past. The reality of danger and threat is these words exist literally, as conceptualized and in context in very high significant percentages in the holy books of Islam, i.e. Quran, Hadiths, Sira an others.
I am sure you understand how constant repetitions of words with negative and evil connotations into the brain of the vulnerables is very dangerous and damaging.


As I explained above, the words itself are not critical but rather the psychological, emotional and other negative contexts that had been conceptualized and attached to them by the in-group [US] onto the out-group [them].

Note the word 'gay' itself [joy, happy, homosexual] is not abusive.
However if a person is recognized and pointed to as 'gay' in a square in the middle of Afghanistan or some Muslims majority nations, he is likely to be mobbed, lynched, and killed by a crazy mob.

It is likely for anyone identified as 'Kuffar' 'Kafir' 'infidels' in such places to be threatened with violence or even killed.
As to what constitutes shallow and biased thinking depends on what side of the coin one is presenting.

If one side is being presented, it is justified to show the opposite side.

All people need to see all facets, if they are to reach their own conclusions.

I can only present what I have seen. Yes, it has been over 40 years since i lived in the Mideast and North Africa, but during that time I never once heard any non-Muslims called Kaffir.
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