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Old 07-11-2015, 10:36 PM
 
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Old 07-12-2015, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Woodrow,
You mentioned there is no central authority in Islam and being a Muslim is personal.
As such your views on the Hadiths is merely a personal view, only one amongst 1.2 billion Muslims.
Besides I have shown many times your intellectual credibility re views on Islam is low due to personal bias.

When we discuss the Hadiths we have to take into consideration ALL Muslims and not merely your [only one person] views. We are referring to the majority of Muslims unless specified.

The fact is Sunni Muslims constitute 87-90% [2009] of Muslims.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Islam
The Sunni recognized the Bukhari and Muslims as most authentic and from what I read, the majority deemed the Hadiths as spoken by Muhammad with 100% support from Allah.
Therefore when we critique against the Hadiths and Islam we are actually making reference to the majority of Sunnis and NOT you personally [as Sunni or whatever].

The Shia also adopt their own Hadiths seriously.

Being a Muslim is fundamentally a matter of the terrible daily battles of eternal life in heaven or eternal death in Hell. To ensure one go the heaven a believer must comply as fully as possible to the words of God, i.e. the holy texts -Quran, Hadiths, Sira and other secondary texts [e.g. Reliance of the Traveller].
For the majority of Sunni, the Quran & Hadiths [approved Bukhari & Muslim] are taken as a driven engine without compromise which will ensure their passage to heaven.

Even if YOU do not regard the Hadiths as commands, most Sunni Muslims will be driven to adhere blindly to the messages and instructions as advocated in the Hadiths to the 't' for fear of going to hell. Many will have blind devotion to their brainwashed clergy. Unfortunate for you, question is who are YOU or others to tell them who is right or wrong?

The only effective way to deal with the negatives in the Hadiths is to provide effective counter narratives to it.
Since the Sunni are relying on the Hadiths heavily and deriving from it the Sharia Laws which infringe on the rights of others and insult the basic dignity of humanity, it is justifiable for others to critique the Hadiths.
Most importantly we need to expose how the Hadiths provided additional support that catalyze the evil prone to commit terrible evils.

Btw, what is being criticized by others is based on what is from the approved Hadiths.
Therefore as long as the 'Hadiths' is relied upon by the majority of Muslims, i.e. Sunni and Shia, the Muslims' views should be opened for criticisms.

If I were to discuss Islam with Quran-Only Muslims, then I will not bring in verses from the Hadiths to counter them as they -the Submitters - do not recognize the Hadiths at all.
Masjid Tucson.org: Introduction to Submission to God Alone / Islam
Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)
First point Shi'a and Sunni do disagree as to what Hadith are Sahih or even valid The Shi'a accept 12 Collections The Sunni accept 6 (however there are 7 as the 6th one is not uniformally accepted it can be either Sunan ibn Majah or Muwatta Malik, neither of which is accepted by Shi'ite. Bukhari is not accepted by Shi'ite either nor are any Ahadith pertaining to Aisha.

Every Muslim can only speak for Himself. There are currently between 1.6 and 1.7 billion of us/ Depending on who is collecting the statistics.

Not one of us can speak for all of us. We each can only give our own views and opinions.

As I am replying for myself, you are going to get my views. Yes, other Muslims do have different views and opinions. It is dificult to find a majority consensus about anything.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 07-12-2015 at 08:27 AM..
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Old 07-12-2015, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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While many people are familiar with the Ahadith compilations collected by Bukhari and Muslim there are at least 4 earlier ones.

Are There Any Hadith Collections From Early Islam? | Discover The Truth

An important part of the study of Ahadith is to learn how each compilation was collected. why a compilation is arrainged as it is and how the authenticity of each hadith was determined.
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Old 07-12-2015, 10:08 AM
 
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"It is dificult to find a majority consensus about anything."

In all my many hundreds of discussions with Muslims, this is clear.

No Muslim will judge Muhammed's actions. Any evil (rape, murder, rape of a child, terrorism, slavery, selling women) that Muhammed did (according to strong hadiths) gets a pass and is indeed defended. EVERY Muslim will defend Muhammed.

Even if they do not accept the hadiths, they accept what is in the Quran, which supports Muhammed's actions.

Every Muslim submits to 'Allah'. Not one Muslim will look at the hate and incitement to violence in the Quran (supposedly the direct word of Allah) and question how a CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE could be so evil as to incite murder and rape and sex with a child and hatred, and terrorism.

These are MAJOR issues and lead to my question:

How can a decent person choose to follow an ideology full of hate and slaughter and incitement to violence and human rights abuses? How can good choose evil?

If we look at Islam rationally, it is one of the biggest scams ever. ONE man, Muhammed, cooked up Islam to gain power and support for his violence and perversions. Muhammed wrote the Quran. Certainly a CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE would never write such a thing! The mystery is why so many people have chosen to submit to such a thing as Islam.
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"It is dificult to find a majority consensus about anything."

In all my many hundreds of discussions with Muslims, this is clear.

No Muslim will judge Muhammed's actions. Any evil (rape, murder, rape of a child, terrorism, slavery, selling women) that Muhammed did (according to strong hadiths) gets a pass and is indeed defended. EVERY Muslim will defend Muhammed.

Even if they do not accept the hadiths, they accept what is in the Quran, which supports Muhammed's actions.

Every Muslim submits to 'Allah'. Not one Muslim will look at the hate and incitement to violence in the Quran (supposedly the direct word of Allah) and question how a CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE could be so evil as to incite murder and rape and sex with a child and hatred, and terrorism.

These are MAJOR issues and lead to my question:

How can a decent person choose to follow an ideology full of hate and slaughter and incitement to violence and human rights abuses? How can good choose evil?

If we look at Islam rationally, it is one of the biggest scams ever. ONE man, Muhammed, cooked up Islam to gain power and support for his violence and perversions. Muhammed wrote the Quran. Certainly a CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE would never write such a thing! The mystery is why so many people have chosen to submit to such a thing as Islam.
The Qur'an has very little information about Muhammad(saws) He is only mentioned by name in 5 places.

Aal Imraan 3: 144
Al-Ahzaab 33: 40
Muhammad 47: 2
Al-Fatah 48: 29
The alternate form of Muhammad (Ahmad) is mentioned once
The name ‘Ahmad’ has been mentioned once in Al-Saff 61: 6

If you would post just one ayyat you believe commands violence. When you post a whole line, it is too overwhelming for me to comprhend. It does take me several hours to Address each one with verifiable links to show it does not promote violence.

To help here is a link to the "Most violent versus in the Qur'an".

Proof that Islam is Evil, Violent, and Intolerant- Straight From the Koran - Jan Morgan Media

Select one and just one and I will gladly address it.

I am getting very exhausted with having to constantly address these on every Forum I am a member on.
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:33 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Qur'an has very little information about Muhammad(saws) He is only mentioned by name in 5 places.

Aal Imraan 3: 144
Al-Ahzaab 33: 40
Muhammad 47: 2
Al-Fatah 48: 29
The alternate form of Muhammad (Ahmad) is mentioned once
The name ‘Ahmad’ has been mentioned once in Al-Saff 61: 6

If you would post just one ayyat you believe commands violence. When you post a whole line, it is too overwhelming for me to comprhend. It does take me several hours to Address each one with verifiable links to show it does not promote violence.

To help here is a link to the "Most violent versus in the Qur'an".

Proof that Islam is Evil, Violent, and Intolerant- Straight From the Koran - Jan Morgan Media

Select one and just one and I will gladly address it.

I am getting very exhausted with having to constantly address these on every Forum I am a member on.
From my analysis I am confident to assert,
The word 'Muhammad' is literally mentioned 277 times in 274 verses.

In addition Muhammad is implied as either a messenger, preacher, warner, prophet in 494 verses in the Quran.

In fact, all 6236 verses of the Quran are attributable to Muhammad as he was the one who was supposed to have recited it.

I have recorded the following statistics re number of Quranic verses containing the following;
1. Violence....509 verses
2. Cruelty.....472 verses
3. War on Kuffar...326 verses.

Such quantums in any religious texts is against basic human morality.

These evil [of various degrees] elements greatly influence SOME Muslims to commit evils and it is made worse when the evil elements in these verses are amplified and exaggerated in the Hadiths and Sunnah.

It is not a matter of one ayyat that promote violence, it is the whole system of evil that is propagated and driven from the holy texts that influenced SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible terrors and evils upon the Kuffar and even Muslims termed as hypocrites or apostates.

Note the system and package of verses that drive SOME to evil comprised the following;

1. Verses invoking the threat of death and hell.
2. Verses condemning and dehumanizing the Kuffar [ the "THEM] as a threat to Islam
3. Verses giving sanction for Muslims to kill or oppress
4. Verses promoting incentives to kill the Kuffar
5. Verses that dictate the circumstances
6. Other verses supporting Jihad.
7. Other external variables

Therefore to support an argument why SOME Muslims commit violent Jihad we have to consider the whole package that caused REAL violence by SOME real Muslims.

In my analysis I am now starting to place the degrees of significance [rating] of each element and verse, i.e. 1(low) to 9(high).

For example in terms of violence verse I would rate the following verse at the top [rated 9], i.e.

9:111 Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

22:39 Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory;

The above is followed by other verses rated 9(high) and the other 300++ verses related to violence and war on Kuffar in various ranges of ratings down to 1(Low).

Note we need to take note of the history and contexts, but what ultimately counts is how it conveyed as a universal principles.
Note "wronged" in 22:39 is too loose a term thus who is to decide how to interpret 'wrong.' This enable the ultra sensitive jihadists to interpret a wide ranges of actions as threat to Islam and thus warrant them to take violent actions, e.g. merely drawing of cartoons of Muhammad.

My point is arguing based solely one one verse will not work. We need to take into account the whole package, note I mentioned the list of criteria 1-9 earlier.
http://www.city-data.com/blogs/blog3...fectively.html
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Old 07-13-2015, 01:17 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From my analysis I am confident to assert,
The word 'Muhammad' is literally mentioned 277 times in 274 verses.

In addition Muhammad is implied as either a messenger, preacher, warner, prophet in 494 verses in the Quran.

In fact, all 6236 verses of the Quran are attributable to Muhammad as he was the one who was supposed to have recited it.

I have recorded the following statistics re number of Quranic verses containing the following;
1. Violence....509 verses
2. Cruelty.....472 verses
3. War on Kuffar...326 verses.

Such quantums in any religious texts is against basic human morality.

These evil [of various degrees] elements greatly influence SOME Muslims to commit evils and it is made worse when the evil elements in these verses are amplified and exaggerated in the Hadiths and Sunnah.

It is not a matter of one ayyat that promote violence, it is the whole system of evil that is propagated and driven from the holy texts that influenced SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible terrors and evils upon the Kuffar and even Muslims termed as hypocrites or apostates.

Note the system and package of verses that drive SOME to evil comprised the following;

1. Verses invoking the threat of death and hell.
2. Verses condemning and dehumanizing the Kuffar [ the "THEM] as a threat to Islam
3. Verses giving sanction for Muslims to kill or oppress
4. Verses promoting incentives to kill the Kuffar
5. Verses that dictate the circumstances
6. Other verses supporting Jihad.
7. Other external variables

Therefore to support an argument why SOME Muslims commit violent Jihad we have to consider the whole package that caused REAL violence by SOME real Muslims.

In my analysis I am now starting to place the degrees of significance [rating] of each element and verse, i.e. 1(low) to 9(high).

For example in terms of violence verse I would rate the following verse at the top [rated 9], i.e.

9:111 Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

22:39 Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory;

The above is followed by other verses rated 9(high) and the other 300++ verses related to violence and war on Kuffar in various ranges of ratings down to 1(Low).

Note we need to take note of the history and contexts, but what ultimately counts is how it conveyed as a universal principles.
Note "wronged" in 22:39 is too loose a term thus who is to decide how to interpret 'wrong.' This enable the ultra sensitive jihadists to interpret a wide ranges of actions as threat to Islam and thus warrant them to take violent actions, e.g. merely drawing of cartoons of Muhammad.

My point is arguing based solely one one verse will not work. We need to take into account the whole package, note I mentioned the list of criteria 1-9 earlier.
http://www.city-data.com/blogs/blog3...fectively.html
If you look you will find the name Mummad is in parethesis--added by the translator. They are not in the Qur'an. In the actual Qur'an not a translation the Name Mummad appears 4 times and Ahmad once.

Where Rasoul ( Prophet/Messenger) it is used in a context that makes it applicable to all Rasoul. This is a fault that appears primarily in English Translations.

Let us look just at 22:39 Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory;

22:39 Othina lillatheena yuqataloona biannahum thulimoo wainna Allaha AAala nasrihim laqadeerun

The problem begins with the translation s of Pickthall and Ali.
they seem to be the ones that used the word wronged. Fortunatly very few Muslims speak English and will never use an English translation

yuqataloona biannahum thulimoo does not carry the conontation of being wronged it is about being physically attacked. ambushed without a declared state of war.

The German gets the concept quite well with die bekämpft werden/ The French and Spanish also express the connontation of self defense when phyically attacked. à ceux qui sont attaqués // atacad a quienes os



22:39 (Asad) PERMISSION [to fight] is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged [57] and, verily, God has indeed the power to succour them - :

22:39 (Y. Ali) To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-

22:39 (Picktall) Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory;


22:39 (French) Autorisation est donnée à ceux qui sont attaqués (de se défendre) - parce que vraiment ils sont lésés; et Allah est certes Capable de les secourir -

22:39 (Spanish) Les está permitidoson atacad a quienes os, porque han sido tratados injustamente. -Alá es, ciertamente, poderoso para auxiliarles-.

22:39 (German) Erlaubnis (sich zu verteidigen) ist denen gegeben, die bekämpft werden, weil ihnen Unrecht geschah - und Allah hat fürwahr die Macht, ihnen zu helfen -,

World wide the Most widely used Translations are probably Indonesian, Malay, Urdu, Bangla, Hindi and Farsi. But I notice that there is a large population of French, Spanish and German Muslims.Fortunatly only a small percentage of Muslims use an English Translation. Unfortunatly many non-Muslims use English Translations.

A problem with labeling a verse violent Just because it seems violent in English does not mean it is violent in Arabic or any other language.
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Old 07-13-2015, 02:31 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If you look you will find the name Mummad is in parethesis--added by the translator. They are not in the Qur'an. In the actual Qur'an not a translation the Name Mummad appears 4 times and Ahmad once.

Where Rasoul ( Prophet/Messenger) it is used in a context that makes it applicable to all Rasoul. This is a fault that appears primarily in English Translations.
There is no significant issue here.
Whilst Muhammad name is not mentioned in the Quran, those added in parenthesis definitely implied reference to Muhammad.
Are you disputing the person referred in those verses are to someone else and not Muhammad? e.g.
Pickthall 2:119. Lo! We have sent thee (O Muhammad) with the truth, a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell fire.
Are you saying Pickthall and his likes made a mistake and the person referred to is not Muhammad but another person?


Quote:
Let us look just at 22:39 Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been
wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory;



22:39 Othina lillatheena yuqataloona biannahum thulimoo wainna Allaha AAala
nasrihim laqadeerun
I note the word by word translation is;
Permission is given to those who are being fought because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah for their victory (is) surely Able. al-Hajj 22:39
Quote:
The problem begins with the translations of Pickthall and Ali.

they seem to be the ones that used the word wronged. Fortunatly very few
Muslims speak English and will never use an English translation
Btw, the majority of English translations [with the exception of few] used the term 'wronged.'
Refer to this list of around 50 English translations of 22:39
al-Hajj 22:39

Quote:
yuqataloona biannahum thulimoo
does not carry the conontation of being wronged it is about being physically attacked, ambushed without a declared state of war.

The German gets the concept quite well with die bekämpft werden/ The French and Spanish also express the connontation of self defense when phyically attacked. à ceux qui sont attaqués // atacad a quienes os
You could have picked the German, French and Spanish just as you could also pick the English translation that suit your interest.

Show me 50 German, French and Spanish translations and that the majority support your point.


Quote:
A problem with labeling a verse violent Just because it seems violent in English does not mean it is violent in Arabic or any other language.
The fact is 99.9% of believers will always interpret their holy texts in bias terms due to sentiments, emotional, psychological and other factors. This is an important point when one view your interpretation of Quranic texts as a Muslim.

As I had said above, 22:39 need to be interpreted within the listing of the 1-9 criteria I mentioned earlier. I don't see 22:39 specifically indicate 'physical' or 'undeclared war'. The overall tone in context is 'wronged' which refer to 'wrongs' associated with ascribing partners to Allah, other wrong practices and acts [re 22:1-38] as 'wrong' and its related acts. The fact is Muslims has acted on it and caused real terror, violence and other evils based on misperceptions other than any real attacks. Who is to tell them whether they are right or wrong.

War is evil and immoral. Such direct elements [even just-war] should have never be included in any holy texts in the first place. This is one negative inherent point of Islam.

Last edited by Continuum; 07-13-2015 at 02:57 AM..
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Old 07-13-2015, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is no significant issue here.
Whilst Muhammad name is not mentioned in the Quran, those added in parenthesis definitely implied reference to Muhammad.
Are you disputing the person referred in those verses are to someone else and not Muhammad? e.g.
Pickthall 2:119. Lo! We have sent thee (O Muhammad) with the truth, a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell fire.
Are you saying Pickthall and his likes made a mistake and the person referred to is not Muhammad but another person?




I note the word by word translation is;
Permission is given to those who are being fought because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah for their victory (is) surely Able. al-Hajj 22:39
Btw, the majority of English translations [with the exception of few] used the term 'wronged.'
Refer to this list of around 50 English translations of 22:39
al-Hajj 22:39

You could have picked the German, French and Spanish just as you could also pick the English translation that suit your interest.

Show me 50 German, French and Spanish translations and that the majority support your point.



The fact is 99.9% of believers will always interpret their holy texts in bias terms due to sentiments, emotional, psychological and other factors. This is an important point when one view your interpretation of Quranic texts as a Muslim.

As I had said above, 22:39 need to be interpreted within the listing of the 1-9 criteria I mentioned earlier. I don't see 22:39 specifically indicate 'physical' or 'undeclared war'. The overall tone in context is 'wronged' which refer to 'wrongs' associated with ascribing partners to Allah, other wrong practices and acts [re 22:1-38] as 'wrong' and its related acts. The fact is Muslims has acted on it and caused real terror, violence and other evils based on misperceptions other than any real attacks. Who is to tell them whether they are right or wrong.

War is evil and immoral. Such direct elements [even just-war] should have never be included in any holy texts in the first place. This is one negative inherent point of Islam.
As far as finding 50 translations in
French, Spanish or German there are only 2 or 3 translations in any of them,

The Earliest English translations where from the French There are very few English translation that meet the approval of most Muslims and even those have disclaimers about the errors.

Looking at 22:19 first in the context of the discourse it is part of

The Surah was revealed in two discourses ayyat 1-24 2ere revealded in Mecca to the Mushriks Ayyats 25-78 were revealed at a later date to the Muslims in Medina.

There were a lot of hardships and much discouragement at the time. the Muslims were reluctant to protect themselves even when attacked

As regards the true Believers, they have been addressed in two ways: (1) in a general way so as to include the common people of Arabia also, and (2) in an exclusive way:

The Believers have been told that the mushriks of Makkah had no right to debar them from visiting the Holy Mosque. They had no right to prevent anyone from performing Hajj because the Holy Mosque was not their private property. This objection was not only justified but it also acted as an effective political weapon against the Quraish. For it posed this question to the other clans of Arabia: Were the Quraish mere attendants of the Holy Mosque or its owners? It implied that if they succeeded in debarring the Muslims from Hajj without any protest from others, they would feel encouraged in future to debar from Hajj and Umrah the people of any other clan, who happened to have strained relations with the Quraish. In order to emphasize this point, the history of the construction of the Holy Mosque has been cited to show that it was built by Prophet Abraham by the Command of Allah and he had invited all the peoples to perform Hajj there. That is why those coming from outside had enjoyed equal rights by the local people from the very beginning. It has also been made clear that that House had not been built for the rituals of shirk but for the worship of One Allah. Thus it was sheer tyranny that the worship of Allah was being forbidden there while the worship of idols enjoyed full licence.
In order to counteract the tyranny of the Quraish, the Muslims were allowed to fight with them. They were also given instructions to adopt the right and just attitude as and when they acquired power to rule in the land. Moreover, the Believers have been officially given the name of "Muslims", saying, "You are the real heirs to Abraham and you have been chosen to become witnesses of the Truth before mankind. Therefore you should establish salat and pay the zakat dues in order to become the best models of righteous life and perform Jihad for propagating the Word of Allah." (vv. 41,77, 78.)

Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #22


Looking just at 22:39 using Pickthalls erroneous translation. and as a paragraph, not as a stand alone ayyat

22:34 (Picktall) And for every nation have We appointed a ritual, that they may mention the name of Allah over the beast of cattle that He hath given them for food; and your God is One God, therefor surrender unto Him. And give good tidings (O Muhammad) to the humble.

22:35 (Picktall) Whose hearts fear when Allah is mentioned, and the patient of whatever may befall them, and those who establish worship and who spend of that We have bestowed on them.

22:36 (Picktall) And the camels! We have appointed them among the ceremonies of Allah. Therein ye have much good. So mention the name of Allah over them when they are drawn up in lines. Then when their flanks fall (dead), eat thereof and feed the beggar and the suppliant. Thus have We made them subject unto you, that haply ye may give thanks.

22:37 (Picktall) Their flesh and their blood reach not Allah, but the devotion from you reacheth Him. Thus have We made them subject unto you that ye may magnify Allah that He hath guided you. And give good tidings (O Muhammad) to the good.

22:38 (Picktall) Lo! Allah defendeth those who are true. Lo! Allah loveth not each treacherous ingrate.

22:39 (Picktall) Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory;

22:40 (Picktall) Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said: Our Lord is Allah--For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty.

22:41 (Picktall) Those who, if We give them power in the land, establish worship and pay the poor due and enjoin kindness and forbid iniquity. And Allah's is the sequel of events.

There is no indication of justifying violence. The simple lesson is more along the line of " Fear not, Allaah is with you, everything will be all right"
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Old 07-13-2015, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #22


Looking just at 22:39 using Pickthalls erroneous translation. and as a paragraph, not as a stand alone ayyat

22:34 (Picktall) And for every nation have We appointed a ritual, that they may mention the name of Allah over the beast of cattle that He hath given them for food; and your God is One God, therefor surrender unto Him. And give good tidings (O Muhammad) to the humble.

22:35 (Picktall) Whose hearts fear when Allah is mentioned, and the patient of whatever may befall them, and those who establish worship and who spend of that We have bestowed on them.

22:36 (Picktall) And the camels! We have appointed them among the ceremonies of Allah. Therein ye have much good. So mention the name of Allah over them when they are drawn up in lines. Then when their flanks fall (dead), eat thereof and feed the beggar and the suppliant. Thus have We made them subject unto you, that haply ye may give thanks.

22:37 (Picktall) Their flesh and their blood reach not Allah, but the devotion from you reacheth Him. Thus have We made them subject unto you that ye may magnify Allah that He hath guided you. And give good tidings (O Muhammad) to the good.

22:38 (Picktall) Lo! Allah defendeth those who are true. Lo! Allah loveth not each treacherous ingrate.

22:39 (Picktall) Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory;

22:40 (Picktall) Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said: Our Lord is Allah--For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty.

22:41 (Picktall) Those who, if We give them power in the land, establish worship and pay the poor due and enjoin kindness and forbid iniquity. And Allah's is the sequel of events.

There is no indication of justifying violence. The simple lesson is more along the line of " Fear not, Allaah is with you, everything will be all right"
Syed Maududi's is bias and do not convey the real meaning of the context.

I suggest you read chapter 22 again carefully.
Verse 22:1-38 emphasize on Allah, his threat of Judgment Day and how the infidels has gone the 'wrong' way of Allah, e.g. hinder Muhammad's men to pray in Ka'abar*, ascribing partners to Allah, pray to idols, lying, etc.
* Muhammad was a unilateral intruder and provocateur into the existing peaceful religious harmony of the Quraish and others. He should have build his own temple and mind his own business.
"wrong' in general can refer to mental harms & physical harms and other negatives.

Chapter 22:39 give Sanction and permission for the Muslims to do what is necessary to 'right' what they have been or will be "wronged."
By this time Muhammad was already in a sufficient strong position over the Quraish and there is no real need to give such instruction if there is ever a need for self-defence.

The real need is this sanction, permission and authority by Allah [note Milgram's experiment] paved and facilitate the way for Muhammad to call upon the Muslims to do their duty in the cause of Allah [actually Muhammad's personal vision to rob, raid and fulfill his imperialistic quest] that resulted to terrible violence by Muslims ever since.

The above is a rational justification which is supported by real empirical evidence that was committed in the past is continuing in the present and will be worse in the future.

Btw, 22:39 is merely one verse that is part of a package of a whole set of many verses that catalyze SOME Muslims [past, present and future] to commit terrible evils.
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