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Old 07-22-2015, 03:03 AM
 
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Came across this just now and thought it might be of interest. Sorry if it has already been posted, but I have skimmed the threads and it doesn't look like it.

'Oldest' Koran fragments found in Birmingham University - BBC News
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Old 07-22-2015, 04:46 AM
 
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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kevxu View Post
Came across this just now and thought it might be of interest. Sorry if it has already been posted, but I have skimmed the threads and it doesn't look like it.

'Oldest' Koran fragments found in Birmingham University - BBC News
That is very interesting. There was also a very old Bible found recently. I think it is twelve or fifteen hundred years old. Also, it is believed that the Qur'an of Imam 'Ali A.S. was found:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Toj-K2mqqjI Clip: Quran hand-written by Imam Ali (as) in Najaf, Iraq



Wassalaam. devotee
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Old 07-22-2015, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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As usual and being rational one should look at this from various perspectives, i.e.

1. It may have been written by a person who heard Muhammad preaching.

2. Is this parchment referring to the Mecca or Medinian phase of the Quran.

3. It could have been written by anyone who was had religious inclinations, there were many then in the 7th century and the person may have never heard from Muhammad.

4. It is possible, this parchment was an independent writing from someone or group which has nothing to do with Muhammad but was taken as a part to form and be compiled as what Muslims called the Quran today.

Point is since the time lag is around 1300++ years one cannot jump to one's favored or bias conclusion.
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Old 07-23-2015, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As usual and being rational one should look at this from various perspectives, i.e.

1. It may have been written by a person who heard Muhammad preaching.

2. Is this parchment referring to the Mecca or Medinian phase of the Quran.

3. It could have been written by anyone who was had religious inclinations, there were many then in the 7th century and the person may have never heard from Muhammad.

4. It is possible, this parchment was an independent writing from someone or group which has nothing to do with Muhammad but was taken as a part to form and be compiled as what Muslims called the Quran today.

Point is since the time lag is around 1300++ years one cannot jump to one's favored or bias conclusion.
One thing to keep in mind is written Arabic was in it's infancy. Very few people could read and write Arabic.


the fragments are from Surah Ta-Ha (20) and is Meccan revealed in the 5th year of Muhammad(saws) revelation of the Qur'an.

The text seems to be in the Kufic script which appeared at about the same time the Qur'an was being revealed between the years of 610-632. This surah was revealed in either 615 or 616. Notice the Kufic script contains no vowels or punctuation and each word is reduced to 3 letters. It was basically a memory tool to serve as a reminder to a person that had memorized the Surah. Memory was the dominate form of preservation with the written scripts being used as memory enhancers. It is impossible to read unless you already have considerable memory of what was recited.
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Old 07-23-2015, 07:42 PM
 
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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You. Thanks Woodrow, for that informative information.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
One thing to keep in mind is written Arabic was in it's infancy. Very few people could read and write Arabic.


the fragments are from Surah Ta-Ha (20) and is Meccan revealed in the 5th year of Muhammad(saws) revelation of the Qur'an.

The text seems to be in the Kufic script which appeared at about the same time the Qur'an was being revealed between the years of 610-632. This surah was revealed in either 615 or 616. Notice the Kufic script contains no vowels or punctuation and each word is reduced to 3 letters. It was basically a memory tool to serve as a reminder to a person that had memorized the Surah. Memory was the dominate form of preservation with the written scripts being used as memory enhancers. It is impossible to read unless you already have considerable memory of what was recited.


Surah Ta Ha





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Old 07-23-2015, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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i just noticed the article link says the script used in the Hijazi script. Looks like Kufic to me. I do not see where it differs from Kufic, but I am not really familiar with the Hijazi.

I just did a little research, it is a script contemporary with Kufic but originating in the Hijaz (Mecca and Medina) I can not see any differences between it and kufic.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 07-23-2015 at 08:39 PM..
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Old 07-29-2015, 12:08 PM
 
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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.



This Qur'an is said to be the oldest, in the world.

The Othman Koran was compiled in Medina by Othman, the third caliph or Muslim leader. To prevent disputes about which verses should be considered divinely inspired, Othman had this definitive version compiled. It was completed in the year 651, only 19 years after Muhammadís death.



The Oldest Qur'an In The World




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Old 08-02-2015, 07:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
One thing to keep in mind is written Arabic was in it's infancy. Very few people could read and write Arabic.


the fragments are from Surah Ta-Ha (20) and is Meccan revealed in the 5th year of Muhammad(saws) revelation of the Qur'an.

The text seems to be in the Kufic script which appeared at about the same time the Qur'an was being revealed between the years of 610-632. This surah was revealed in either 615 or 616. Notice the Kufic script contains no vowels or punctuation and each word is reduced to 3 letters. It was basically a memory tool to serve as a reminder to a person that had memorized the Surah. Memory was the dominate form of preservation with the written scripts being used as memory enhancers. It is impossible to read unless you already have considerable memory of what was recited.
Is that really true? Arabic was about before Muhammad was even born wasn't it? There were various scripts - one old Quran in Tashkent is in Kufic, the oldest one I have seen claimed in is Hijazic (1) script. But the language and presumably a writing method must have been in existence long before Muhammad's time.

The Tahkent Qur'an is indeed claimed to be of the 7th c. -about the time that the Qur'an was being collated - suggesting that this was one of the 'five Qur'ans' that the caliph Uthman issued, destroying all the previous ones. But others say that it is is actually later. 9th - 11th century.

You are being a bit crafty old pal in pointing out that Kufic script was appearing just at the time the Quran was supposed to have been revealed to Muhammad. But that of course does not mean that it was written down at the time and somehow escaped being destroyed by the caliph, especially as it is claimed as one that he issued. Which is actually unlikely since he would issue five Qurans in the same same script and scriptural variants would only appear later on once people had learned to read them.

After all your information that the thing is unreadable unless you already know it suggest that this written version had to be a lot later than the time it was supposed to have been given to the prophet.

(1)http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/might-be-oldest-copy-quran-180956036/?no-ist

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-02-2015 at 07:45 AM..
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Old 08-02-2015, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Is that really true? Arabic was about before Muhammad was even born wasn't it? There were various scripts - one old Quran in Tashkent is in Kufic, the oldest one I have seen claimed in is Hijazic (1) script. But the language and presumably a writing method must have been in existence long before Muhammad's time.

The Tahkent Qur'an is indeed claimed to be of the 7th c. -about the time that the Qur'an was being collated - suggesting that this was one of the 'five Qur'ans' that the caliph Uthman issued, destroying all the previous ones. But others say that it is is actually later. 9th - 11th century.

You are being a bit crafty old pal in pointing out that Kufic script was appearing just at the time the Quran was supposed to have been revealed to Muhammad. But that of course does not mean that it was written down at the time and somehow escaped being destroyed by the caliph, especially as it is claimed as one that he issued. Which is actually unlikely since he would issue five Qurans in the same same script and scriptural variants would only appear later on once people had learned to read them.

After all your information that the thing is unreadable unless you already know it suggest that this written version had to be a lot later than the time it was supposed to have been given to the prophet.

(1)http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/might-be-oldest-copy-quran-180956036/?no-ist
Surah Ta-Ha is a Meccan Surah it would have been revealed at least 15 years before Muhammad(saws) death and already memorized and written down by the Hafiz/Scribes. Each Sruah of portion of Surah was written at the time it was revealed.

While Arabic is very Ancient and Phonecian, Hebrew. Aramaic and Arabic are basically dialects of the same language, Arabic did not have a written form until about 100-200 years before the Birth of Muhammad(saws)

Quote:
Although Arabic inscriptions are most common after the birth of Islam (7th century CE), the origin of the Arabic alphabet lies deeper in time. The Nabataeans, which established a kingdom in what is modern-day Jordan from the 2nd century BCE, were Arabs. They wrote with a highly cursive Aramaic-derived alphabet that would eventually evolve into the Arabic alphabet. The Nabataeans endured until the year 106 CE, when they were conquered by the Romans, but Nabataean inscriptions continue to appear until the 4th century CE, coinciding with the first inscriptions in the Arabic alphabet (which is also found in Jordan).
Ancient Scripts: Arabic

It does appear the Kufic script was designed specifically for writing the Qur'an It seems to have developed over the 22 years the Qur'an was being reveled. Which makes sense as it is compossed of streight lines and is fast to write making it easy to transcribe spoken lectures, testimonies etc. A 7th century form of shorthand, and well suited for taking dictation.

If you are old enough to remember when secretaries used shorthand



Is Cursive Dying? - Page 10


You should have a grasp on the concept behind the Kufic script
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Old 08-02-2015, 10:53 PM
 
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Ok Thanks for that. I shall have a look further. The Quran in the Hijazi script is in a UK Library - the Bodelian, I think and is not the one in Tashkent.
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