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Old 08-08-2015, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
An example I noticed:

one Muslim cleric recently appeared on video counseling Muslims to tell Christians, “I wish you the best,” whereby the latter might “understand it to mean you’re wishing them best in terms of their [Christmas] celebration.” But—here the sheikh giggles as he explains—“by saying I wish you the best, you mean in your heart I wish you become a Muslim.”[11]


Taqiyya about Taqiyya | Raymond Ibrahim




First how do you define a Muslim Cleriic? Among us Sunni there is no Hierarchy of clergy as we have no ordained clergy. Every Sunni is Clergy.

I hope you noticed the site you are quting from is not an Islamic Site. Raymond Ibrahim is not a Muslim.

Also note he did not give any source for his comment nor did he identify the alleged cleric.

Quote:
By way of modern examples, and because some Muslims hold it to be a “great sin”[10] to acknowledge Christmas (since doing so validates Christianity, a different message than Islam), one Muslim cleric recently appeared on video counseling Muslims to tell Christians, “I wish you the best,” whereby the latter might “understand it to mean you’re wishing them best in terms of their [Christmas] celebration.” But—here the sheikh giggles as he explains—“by saying I wish you the best, you mean in your heart I wish you become a Muslim.”[11]
But even so, When one wishes a Muslim "Merry Christmas" How can a Muslim reply? I can not wish back "Merry Christmas" as as that would place myself in the posistion of participating in a Holiday I do not acknowledge. For me to wish a person a Merry Christmas would be Taqiyya.

I can Wish for them happiness, joy and prosperity for all days. But I can not remove from my heart my belief that Islam is true happiness, joy and prosperity. I do believe the best for every person is to accept Islam. I also believe a person can only accept Islam through their own free will and must do so with knowledge, sincerity and with dedication.

When a Christian wishes the Best for me, I assume they believe it would be best if I were to become a Christian. When a Jew wishes the best for me I assume they believe it would be best if I were to become a Jew. When an Atheist wishes the Best for me I assume they believe it would be best for me to become an Atheist. I do not see them wishing me the best a lie, they are sincere in their wish, I do appreciate their concern and thank them, even though we have different concepts as to what is best.

I would never come to the conclusion a Jew, Christian or Atheist is practicing Taqiya by wishing the Best for me, although in their heart they feel it is best I would believe or disbelieve as they do.
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Old 08-08-2015, 12:20 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,221 times
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Muhammed used lies and he's considered by Muslims to be a perfect example.

“War is deceit” is found in Bukhari 52:269 and elsewhere. Muslims consider themselves to be 'at war' with non-Muslims.

Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Ka'b). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." (Bukhari 59:369)

When they came to him they spoke to him and made him promises, treating him well, saying that if he would come to the apostle, he would give him an appointment and honor him. They kept on at him until he went with them with a number of Jews… [Once the Jews were disarmed] all the apostles’ companions fell upon their Jewish companions and killed them except one man who escaped on his feet. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 981).

Allah's Apostle said] "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." (Bukhari 49:857)

Today you can find Muslims lying about many things relating to Islam. That Islam is peaceful is a huge lie. That Muslims only fight in self-defense is another. That Muhammed's 'wife' Aisha was not nine when Muhammed started having sex with her is another. Muslims dishonestly use abrogated verses from the Quran and use dishonest excuses to 'apologize' for Islam. There are websites that teach Muslims how to lie to non-Muslims.
 
Old 08-08-2015, 12:31 PM
 
1,244 posts, read 709,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Muhammed used lies
Please quote him using a lie. If you mean that he allowed people to lie, Woodrow Li has already said that lies are allowed in times of war. Sun Tzu said "all warfare is based on deception" and he is acclaimed as a great strategist, when the Prophet says the same, you say he is a liar ? Read the post mentioning the exceptions during which lying is allowed, there are very few. Muhammad was so sincere and known for being truthful even his enemies despite their dislike of Islam, still trusted him with their wealth.
 
Old 08-08-2015, 12:54 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,221 times
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"Please quote him using a lie."

One example is when Muhammed signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans that allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces to attack them. Two years later he broke the treaty and attacked and slaughtered people who trusted his word.

Another example is Muhammad using deception (pretending to want peace) to trick people who did not submit to him into letting down their guard. Two examples are Ka'b bin al-Ashraf and Usayr ibn Zarim.

Read on:
Narrated Zahdam:

We were in the company of Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari and there were friendly relations between us and this tribe of Jarm. Abu Musa was presented with a dish containing chicken. Among the people there was sitting a red-faced man who did not come near the food. Abu Musa said (to him), "Come on (and eat), for I have seen Allah's Apostle eating of it (i.e. chicken)." He said, "I have seen it eating something (dirty) and since then I have disliked it, and have taken an oath that I shall not eat it ' Abu Musa said, "Come on, I will tell you (or narrate to you). Once I went to Allah s Apostle with a group of Al-Ash'ariyin, and met him while he was angry, distributing some camels of Rakat. We asked for mounts but he took an oath that he would not give us any mounts, and added, 'I have nothing to mount you on' In the meantime some camels of booty were brought to Allah's Apostle and he asked twice, 'Where are Al-Ash'ariyin?" So he gave us five white camels with big humps. We stayed for a short while (after we had covered a little distance), and then I said to my companions, "Allah's Apostle has forgotten his oath. By Allah, if we do not remind Allah's Apostle of his oath, we will never be successful." So we returned to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! We asked you for mounts, but you took an oath that you would not give us any mounts; we think that you have forgotten your oath.' He said, 'It is Allah Who has given you mounts. By Allah, and Allah willing, if I take an oath and later find something else better than that. then I do what is better and expiate my oath.' "
Sahih Bukhari 7:67:427

But of course if we refuse to accept the nonsense that there is a supernatural being, Muhammed's whole life was a lie.
 
Old 08-09-2015, 04:19 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,611 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
First how do you define a Muslim Cleriic?
I'm thinking it would be based on education and position in some sort of Islamic organization.

Quote:
I hope you noticed the site you are quting from is not an Islamic Site. Raymond Ibrahim is not a Muslim.
Yeah but it's coming from an Islamic source, which if I remember correctly I think I did watch before the video was taken down.

Quote:
Also note he did not give any source for his comment nor did he identify the alleged cleric.
He did indeed give a source: a youtube video although it's not now available. I believe I have watched the video previously.

Quote:
But even so, When one wishes a Muslim "Merry Christmas" How can a Muslim reply?
This is really a change of subject. Certainly Muslims shouldn't be dishonest in the way described right?

Quote:
I can not wish back "Merry Christmas" as as that would place myself in the posistion of participating in a Holiday I do not acknowledge.
Just out of interest, why wouldn't you be willing to celebrate the birth of Jesus? Because of Christian beliefs about Jesus?


Quote:
I do believe the best for every person is to accept Islam.
Yeah well that is a different issue to behaving in a dishonest way over it. Presumably Muslims shouldn't be dishonest in what they say to Christians at Christmas?

Quote:
When a Christian wishes the Best for me, I assume they believe it would be best if I were to become a Christian.
If they were saying "I wish you the best" in the context of a holiday celebration they wouldn't be saying they hope you convert!
 
Old 08-09-2015, 04:27 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,611 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
Woodrow Li has already said that lies are allowed in times of war. Sun Tzu said "all warfare is based on deception" and he is acclaimed as a great strategist, when the Prophet says the same, you say he is a liar ?

This point has already been responded to. The issue is that many Muslim fundies may see themselves as "at war" with any other civilization. So they would have an open-ended and wide permission to lie about their religion, if they believe it will advance the Islamic cause.
 
Old 08-09-2015, 07:14 AM
 
1,244 posts, read 709,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
This point has already been responded to. The issue is that many Muslim fundies may see themselves as "at war" with any other civilization. So they would have an open-ended and wide permission to lie about their religion, if they believe it will advance the Islamic cause.
There are no examples of that. You may perceive this way, but I have never read anything about something like that.

Last edited by Sorel36; 08-09-2015 at 07:32 AM..
 
Old 08-09-2015, 07:16 AM
 
1,244 posts, read 709,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Please quote him using a lie."

One example is when Muhammed signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans that allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces to attack them. Two years later he broke the treaty and attacked and slaughtered people who trusted his word.
This is a straight up lie. As a matter of fact, the Meccans broke their treaty and their treason resumed the war and this is a well known story. Hence the verses 56 to 58 from chapter 8 :
Quote:

You reach agreements with them, but they violate their agreements every time; they are not righteous.

Therefore, if you encounter them in war, you shall set them up as a deterrent example for those who come after them, that they may take heed.

When you are betrayed by a group of people, you shall mobilize against them in the same manner. God does not love the betrayers.
And verse 72 from the same chapter :

Quote:

As for those who believe, but do not emigrate with you, you do not owe them any support, until they do emigrate. However, if they need your help, as brethren in faith, you shall help them,
except against people with whom you have signed a peace treaty. God is Seer of everything you do.

Last edited by Sorel36; 08-09-2015 at 07:33 AM..
 
Old 08-09-2015, 07:23 AM
 
1,244 posts, read 709,523 times
Reputation: 1196
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Please quote him using a lie."
if I take an oath and later find something else better than that. then I do what is better and expiate my oath.' "
I am not sure if you have read the story you quoted. The Prophet did not lie, he swore he would not give them camels in a situation where he had few camels to give people. Then, he was blessed with a surplus of camels, that's why he expiated his oath and gave charity by giving them camels. He did not lie to anybody, he swore to do a thing and God changed the situation so he expiated his oath.

This really has nothing to do with lying to anybody, except for a stubborn atheist.

Last edited by Sorel36; 08-09-2015 at 07:34 AM..
 
Old 08-09-2015, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
I'm thinking it would be based on education and position in some sort of Islamic organization.
Except we have no ordained clergy. there is no central agency that ordains and appoints clergy. There is no hierarchy of Clergy. There are common titles tossed around.

Imam--He is responsible for leading the 5 daily prayers, maintainence of the Mosque and delivering the Jummah Kutbah on Friday. There are several ways to become an Imam the easiest is to build a Mosque and assume the role. Here in the USA the local community join together and build a Mosque. The may or may not select an Imam. Most USA Mosques do not have an Imam the oldest person present at prayer time assumes the role. However we as Muslim should not pray behing a person that obbiously does not know how to lead the 5 Obligatory Prayer. Most adult Muslims know how to lead the 5 Prayers. In a few Nations where all Mosques, churches and other houses of worship are built by the government (Saudi, Turkey, UAE and maybe a couple more) Imams are a civil service job and hired by the state.

Sheik--That is very much misunderstood. It is a title of respect and used much the same as the English term Mister. Some people that carry the label are men past the age of 50. I carry it simply because I am almost always the oldest goat in the pasture. Some others that carry it: Government officials, Land owners, Employers, People with academic accomplishment such as a Ph.D.etc are also called Sheik

Scholar--A person that has completed at least a Baccalaureate in a field of Islamic study Qur'anic Studies, Islamic Jurisprudence, Science of Hadith etc.

Mufti (for Sunni) Mullah(for Shi'ite) an Islamic lawyer who has at least a Ph.d in Islamic Studies and has been appointed as the Chief Sharia Judge in a nation. They carry the authority to pass laws and make legal decisions regarding Qur'anic interpretations.. (Fatwas) Fatwas are not binding upon Sunni, but I believe they are to Shi'a.

Muezzein--the person who calls the Adhan (Call to prayer) usually selected on his voice quality (unless he happens to own the Mosque) --That does happen in smaller US Mosques where one person or family built and own the Mosque. Such as my Mosque in which My wife and myself are the only one's present --it is a spare bedroom, if we had any Muslim neighbors they would be welcome to attend our daily prayers--If they can put up with me leading the prayer. I do stumble and mispronounce some of the Words--The obligatory prayers have to be said in Arabic. I do use a recorded PC program for the Athan. My computer calls the Adzan 5 times daily. (You will find various spellings Adhan, Athan Adzan etc. The Arabic letter dzaal has no English counter part it sounds like a mixture of dh,dz, th)



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
Yeah but it's coming from an Islamic source, which if I remember correctly I think I did watch before the video was taken down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
He did indeed give a source: a youtube video although it's not now available. I believe I have watched the video previously.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
This is really a change of subject. Certainly Muslims shouldn't be dishonest in the way described right?
True. We do need to be clear and acknowledge, we believe the best thing for all people is to accept Islam as it does guarantee eternal happiness. Which we do want for all people



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
Just out of interest, why wouldn't you be willing to celebrate the birth of Jesus? Because of Christian beliefs about Jesus?
I do not celebrate anyone's birthday. Not mine, Not my wife's, Not Any Prophet's Birthday including the birthday's of Jesus(a.s.) and Muhammad(saws)




Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
Yeah well that is a different issue to behaving in a dishonest way over it. Presumably Muslims shouldn't be dishonest in what they say to Christians at Christmas?
I agree.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
If they were saying "I wish you the best" in the context of a holiday celebration they wouldn't be saying they hope you convert!
Perhaps not on a conscious level but I believe that in their heart they desire all people to be Christian. As most Christians believe only Christians go to heaven, if they do not desire all people to go to heaven that is tantamount to them wishing they go to Hell.

While I do not believe Christianity is the path to heaven, I do see it as a sign of agape love that they desire I become Christian, I appreciate their thought and am not offended by it.

I can not say any Christian will go to Hell as I do not know who will. Allaah(swt) is very merciful and if he finds reason a Christian or other person deserves heaven they will go to heave, But, their is an unknown factor there, I am positive all who die as a Muslim will go to heaven--no unknown factor.
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